Code Geass - Spoilers & Speculation (take 3)

[Varis]

Originally Posted by Charred Knight

Most of what he did was his own fault. He wanted to use Rolo, but before he could Rolo killed Shirley. He wanted to hide who he was from the Black Knights, Schneizel used that against him. He did a lot of things that didn't help like blowing up the JLF simply to use as a distraction. He abused Geass instead of using his intelligence, and that bit him in the ass.

One of the reasons why I like Schneizel more than Lelouch, is because while Lelouch is supposed to be this great genius most of the time he just uses his geass to get whatever he wants. He used his geass creativly only in the Mao battle, and everywhere else he just looked at someone and commanded them.

Yes, he stopped his father, but then he went and made an even bigger mess of things by turning Britannia back into a conquering nation. Brainwashing his family just for the laughs, not evacuating anyone, brainwashing more soldiers.

Yes his trying to stop his brother, but theirs a limit to what I am willing to take, and Lelouch and Suzaku passed that line with the brainwashing.

I could understand if Suzaku, and Lelouch learned their lesson but they didn't, they continue not to trust anyone, and I am hoping that bites them in the ass instead of Kallen turning into a wishy washy person because Lelouch is deep down a nice guy that just does insanely horrible things.

As things are going i am penciling this as worse than Gundam Wing, because at least Gundam Wing had a point, better mecha designs, and better mechas. The fact that Code Geass has the more developed heroes means nothing when that only goes for three people (Kallen, Lelouch, and Suzaku), and GW had the better villains with Zechs, Treize, and Lady Une.

What's geass point?

Whoa there, I think you're taking a pretty abstract view on this.
First off, why does Rolo have no accountability for killing Shirley? Why is it always Lulu? If you wanna look for blame you gotta do it right and include V.V. for creating Rolo, Charles for allowing it, C.C for leaving the cult to V.V, Jeremia for cancelling her geass and finally Lulu for trying to use him. The person actually GUILTY of it though is freaking Rolo and no one else. Period.

Schneizel used the fact that Lulu was hiding from the knights who he was... well yes but how do you propose that a Britannian Prince convinces and motivates Japan to rise against Britannia? Even intellectuals like Tamaki would figure out they are pawns in a britannian struggle for the throne.

Sorry, that Lulouche hid from the knights was as important as his creation of the symbol called "zero".

Him using geass does not belittle his intelligence. That's like saying, why does Schneizel have to use Freija if he is so smart? You make due with what you have and in Lulu's situation, he needs any scrap he can get. He does not have the backing and resources Schneizel has, he started with absolutly NOTHING, hiding from his own people, hated by the natives...
Lulu's use of geass actually does him credit. He does not go spamming it like crazy, he used it only when absolutly necessary in order to keep it a secret. Otherwise the OotBK would have been like his current army since episode 1.


Also, what is this "he stopped his father, BUT!!!!..." He freaking saved the world right there. He pulled off what Schneizel was unable to do and he did it being hunted and alone.

That is not enough though. While he saved the world from his father, he has to again save it from his brother. The OotBK won't accept him back and because of that the UFN would refuse him. The only effective means to stop his brother would be to take control of Britannia. That's what he did.
Lulu did create his own loyal army because being as unpopular as he is (abolishing nobility, etc etc) he would have a hard time finding people he can rely on in time. His family would not accept him as emperor and even if they "officially" did, they would just use that time to plan his murder behind his back.

Naw, Lulu is beyond the bullshit and games. The cat about Geass is out of the bag too so he geassed the royals and his army to take control of Britannia in time to be ready for Schneizel.

You mentioned he should have evacuated Pendragon??? he he... good one.
"Sir! we are detecting a huge object comming in from above us... our magical loli diviners are convinced it will immediatly drop a freija with the limiter removed on us! Quick, evacuate the city! You got 20 seconds!!! gogogo!!"
awww I guess the 100 mile blast radius was faster... gosh... almost made it! =)


As for Lulu and Susaku not trusting anyone, and not learning their lesson... well if you pay attention, they are doing it on purpose. For their common goal of "zero requiem" susaku was willing to work with lulu, for that end lulu pushed kallen away. In fact, they are pushing everyone away because they don't want anyone following them to their end. Especially those they care about with the exception of C.C.

As for the point of Code Geass... well foremost it's just supposed to be an entertaining show but it also shows the price and effect of vengeance. It paints a picture of pride, racism, love, loyalty, devotion and a lot more.


If you like to compare it to Gundam... pink princess with unnaturally skilled pilot looking to better the world.... aahahaha.
I think that Code Geass takes those pararells to gundam, slams them on Ninas table and works them without KY or a reacharound.

[Baixinho]

Originally Posted by roon

「愛してるなんて言ったら許さないから」
"Aishiteru nante ittara yurusanai kara"

Thank you.

So, if I understand correctly, the nante translates somehow to the "something like", ittara means "If you say" and yurusenai means "unforgivable / I won't forgive you". Then the kara is used to link the "aishiteru nante itara" to the "yurusenai" in a cause to effect relation.

Is that correct? Or does the kara have another meaning?

[Tokkan]

Kara is a particle meaning "from", "after" or "because".

[Baixinho]

Yes, I know. That's why think it is used to say "If you say ... I won't forgive you because of this". It would be a way to emphasize a cause to effect relation between aishiteru nante ittara and yurusenai, a bit like how the wa particule emphasize the subject of a sentence.

[killbethy]

Originally Posted by Baixinho

But then some things doesn't add up very well :
- why would she say "something like Aishiteru" if she says it to CC ? I would imagine that she would not have any doubts concerning CC's feelings to Lelouch at that point, so why add the "somethng like" ? Wouldn't it be more fitting if her gumline was "If you say because I love him, I won't forgive you" in that case ?

- why would Kallen use aishiteru instead of suki or daisuki for CC's feelings ? It's the same problem as if she says her line to Lelouch.

- why would Kallen's line be about CC's feelings for Lelouch when

Kallen could very well say that to C.C.... basically talking to C.C. directly and saying "If you say you love him (Lelouch), I won't forgive you" for a couple of different reasons. Part of it would probably be jealousy, the only reason Kallen felt okay with C.C. around at the end was because she was certain C.C. and Lelouch just had to work together, but their relationship meant nothing. So if C.C. stops Kallen to save Lelouch, she would feel betrayed in that regard. Also, because of C.C.'s cooperation, depending on the time (and we can assume it's before Lelouch's name is cleared), Kallen could be in the mindframe of "how can you say you love someone and allow them to manipulate and kill thousands of people?" I think the meaning of her gumline is entirely dependent on whether it is said before or after Schneizel appears to be the main bad guy.

Originally Posted by mechalord

- someone intervenes and somehow they make up or are forced to work together.
- If you look at the preview you see the bridge of Ikaruga relaying a message. You also see Tamaki take what looks to be a defensive stance before the Avalon.

Agreed. I keep saying this, but in the shot of Tamaki in the extended preview, I swear he his saying "Zero", but it is just silenced by the narration.

[Baixinho]

Originally Posted by killbethy

Kallen could very well say that to C.C.... basically talking to C.C. directly and saying "If you say you love him (Lelouch), I won't forgive you" for a couple of different reasons. Part of it would probably be jealousy, the only reason Kallen felt okay with C.C. around at the end was because she was certain C.C. and Lelouch just had to work together, but their relationship meant nothing. So if C.C. stops Kallen to save Lelouch, she would feel betrayed in that regard. Also, because of C.C.'s cooperation, depending on the time (and we can assume it's before Lelouch's name is cleared), Kallen could be in the mindframe of "how can you say you love someone and allow them to manipulate and kill thousands of people?" I think the meaning of her gumline is entirely dependent on whether it is said before or after Schneizel appears to be the main bad guy.

I understand that very well, that was not my point.

My point was about the phrasing of the line, the words used, and the relation between the line and Kallen's character compared to the 3 other gum lines we know of.

[killbethy]

Originally Posted by Baixinho

I understand that very well, that was not my point.

My point was about the phrasing of the line, the words used, and the relation between the line and Kallen's character compared to the 3 other gum lines we know of.

You know what would be really bizarre and a total mindf*ck... if the rumors about Kanon really being Kallen's brother are true and she said it to him.

[dec4rhapsody]

Originally Posted by Baixinho

I understand that very well, that was not my point.

My point was about the phrasing of the line, the words used, and the relation between the line and Kallen's character compared to the 3 other gum lines we know of.

Considering the whole character development of Kallen in R2, I'd rather believe the gumline would be said to Lelouch....But the staff has always given me the impression that they favor C.C. over Kallen. Sigh. Favoritism. Sigh....

Originally Posted by killbethy

You know what would be really bizarre and a total mindf*ck... if the rumors about Kanon really being Kallen's brother are true and she said it to him.

If that's true, I'll be technically bumping my head into the wall.
But I remember an old magazine issue saying that Naoto was Kallen's half brother...(Don't ask me for confirmation~)
So, Naoto=Japanese, Kallen=Half.





Kanon=Britannian~

[KrimzonStriker]

Originally Posted by Charred Knight

Who's more impressive Lelouch or Adolf Hitler?

That you're making this comparison at all here kind of detracts from the point that Lelouch is not trying to become Hitler in the first place >_>

The answer's Hitler, the reason is because Lelouch got to where he is by using a magic eye, Hitler got to wear he is using trickery, his brilliant mind, and his ability to get you to do anything. Schneizel reminds me of Hitler, because both of them do have goals, Hitler's was to create a master race, while Schneizel is to force mankind to end war or be judged guilty by him. Schneizel is more impressive since all he can use are Lelouch's mistakes, and his own brilliance. He can't brainwash his family, he can't brainwash that chinese dude.

Uhh, he certainly got here far more then on his magic eyes alone, they give him an advantage and a weapon, no different then an argument that could be made about Schneizel and his nuclear monopoly. In this case they are even and from here we can thus make the same comparisons concerning their brilliance, trickery, and ability to get people to do anything without his Geass as was the case with the Order, perhaps is still the case with the Order. And of course, intimidating them into submission isn't just another form of control either. At the same time I'll draw in how well things turned out for Hitler on that score, so I hardly see the comparisons being much of an argument against Lelouch's route >_>

Saying that Lelouch is more impressive is like saying Superman is a more impressive fighter than Muhammed Ali.

Well, if Muhammad Ali has a bag full of Kryptonite that can even the score, then all it'll come down to in the end is their fists, or in this case with Lelouch and Schneizel their wits >_>

[Theron]

Alright, here it comes: an overall impression of the most recent chunk of CG by yours truly. *round of applause ^^*

Ok, some of you may recognize me - some may not because of my absence from these forums for quite a long time. But now I have time, resolve and desire thus I’m back in service of the Great and Mighty CluClu Federation for the glory of Her Majesty the Almighty Hat. ^^

Anyways, even though I didn’t had the time to post here or even read the forums much I as a true CG fan watched the series every Monday. Thus I wanted to write a giant post about everything that I haven’t had the chance to write about earlier. But than I thought, that all the details from most episodes were discussed through out already so I’ll just write my thoughts on the progression of the CG plots in general. I even rewatched the whole R2 yesterday and the first impression I was left with was – this feels slightly rushed. Most episodes by themselves are still solid and entertaining, but the closer we’ve got to the ending the stronger this feeling was getting. Some not really important to the overall story details were just left out like Viletta & Ougi falling cliffhanger wasn’t resolved at all. One episode they are falling to their deaths and the next one – pooof! – there is not a scratch on both of them. And this is just one example. I bet this will be explained in CD dramas or even simply left unsolved. WE haven’t seen anything like that in S1 where every secondary plot was wrapped up at the end as clean as possible.

The same thing can be witnessed with some secondary characters motivation. The best example for this perfunctorily character development is in Turn 19. The whole sequence if revealing Zero and the Orders top members just deciding to point guns at their Messiah?! There just wasn’t enough subtext, scenes for this to be in any was justified. Ok, there was a confusing message from Asahina, who’s now dead relaying a statement of another dead character. Also when Sheneizel presented so called evidence – there was also a bunch of dead characters. I mean come on! A bunch of enemies are telling you a fairytale about some magical power setting up your leader presenting some ridiculous proof based on and what do you do after that?! You believe them! And don’t even try to bring up Viletta – she’s an enemy as well, connection between her and Ougi rather should make you suspicious of him than anyone else. Still the final decision – to point a gun at your leader and threatening to kill him – is nuts however you look at it. And after that top ranks of the Order still continue to believe whatever Sheneizel was telling them, not a single hesitation, no doubts like they all were lobotomized all of a sudden.

(Though I still wouldn’t count out Diethard, he could be just following a back up plan that a genius like Lelouch must have for almost any situation)

But even though all of the things mentioned above are important and a bit disappointing these are not the worst. The worst has become evident after the most bizarre salvation of the Geass plot. Now I should remind you what Geass plot meant for the whole Code Geass series. Geass itself was the central element that the show was presenting itself with. It was the starting point – it was the thing because of witch all this story began to unfold. And it was present all the time the story was being told. The Geass plot was and overarching mythology that bonded everything else together. From the first time we have learned something about Geass we knew that it will be the most important thing for the whole series. Everything else wasn’t as important. ….or so we thought.

Now let’s look at what we’ve actually got up to this point. The Geass plot ended in Turn 21. It ended in the most disappointing at least for me form. The answer to the mystery that covered the entire series was several levels below of what we would’ve expected. The doomsday scenario wasn’t even explained properly. Ok, Sword of Akasha will stop all lies… Say what?! How does it work? What it will do? The gods are all the people combine? What kind of nonsense is that? And then the brilliant, unbelievably charismatic - all thanks to Wakamoto - antagonist is gone. Also (if that wasn’t enough) a number of very effective plot turns are simply loosing their meaning. Like the destruction of Geass Cult.

And now let’s look at what we have left. The role of main antagonist has taken Sheneizel. With all respect, but Norihiro Inoue as a seiyū is so way below the great Norio Wakamoto. I mean, how I could even try to compare them?! Every time you could have listened to both Wakamoto and Fukuyama at the same time… It was just magical performances. And now this uncharismatic schizophrenic with clear bisexual orientation?! I want someone to slap him really hard every time he shows up on the screen. People hated Suzaku for being a hypocrite, huh, they haven’t seen Sheneizel’s true colors by than. Even to try to present him as a main antagonist for the series finale is total and complete disaster. Also a couple words on Damocles arc: It is not in any way original. Geass had a mystery, an unique feel to it where as Damocles loaded with Fleyas only reminds everyone of nuclear war. I mean, it’s a great decision – to produce a plot with a planetary nuclear destruction jet again. Great work, really original.

There is still a tiny little hope that Zero Requiem is somehow connected to Geass. The only thing we’re left with…

Ok. That’s all I wanted to say. Whoooh!~ I feel much better now. Anyways, Code Geass still rocks, Fkuyama is great, Cornelia is still alive - yay! ^^ CluClu Federation will prevail! And All Hail The Hat!

Oh, and yeah, there’s hope for some sort of acceptable and believable ending. Fingers crossed.

[Dream_Traveller]

Uh...they could be fucking with us about Cornelia, Theron. You know. Like they did with Nunnally and Sayoko. Twice.

[Theron]

Originally Posted by Dream_Traveller

Uh...they could be fucking with us about Cornelia, Theron. You know. Like they did with Nunnally and Sayoko. Twice.

I want to believe! I will accept her death only after I'll see her actually dying like Shirley. And even than there could be some crazy recon afterwards. Like with Sayoko and Nunnally.

Also, she survived Daltons attack, witch seemed far deadlier to me. And what she got afterwards - an arm injury! So who knows...

[ZeroSama]

Originally Posted by Dream_Traveller

Uh...they could be fucking with us about Cornelia, Theron. You know. Like they did with Nunnally and Sayoko. Twice.

Good to see you've adopted a healthy dose of sceptism in CG ever since the news broke about Nunnally being alive.

Same thing happened with me also. Only with alot more rage.

[Shuuda]

There just wasn’t enough subtext, scenes for this to be in any was justified. Ok, there was a confusing message from Asahina, who’s now dead relaying a statement of another dead character. Also when Sheneizel presented so called evidence – there was also a bunch of dead characters.

Well, it was shown that a few of the top Black Knights did have doubts. Their betrayal (or such other problems in the order) could have been predicted from episodes 14/15.

The Geass plot ended in Turn 21. It ended in the most disappointing at least for me form. The answer to the mystery that covered the entire series was several levels below of what we would’ve expected. The doomsday scenario wasn’t even explained properly. Ok, Sword of Akasha will stop all lies… Say what?! How does it work? What it will do? The gods are all the people combine? What kind of nonsense is that? And then the brilliant, unbelievably charismatic - all thanks to Wakamoto - antagonist is gone.

You probably just didn't understand it. There were one or two things that could have been said, but it was not that hard to get. Personally I'm glad that they that cliché end of the world stuff out as soon as possible. And Charles was never that great, he was pretty deluded and almost childish. The Damocles might not be too original, but a battle between two geniuses has a lot more potential that Charles.

[linkinstreet]

Originally Posted by Shuuda

You probably just didn't understand it. There were one or two things that could have been said, but it was not that hard to get. Personally I'm glad that they that cliché end of the world stuff out as soon as possible. And Charles was never that great, he was pretty deluded and almost childish. The Damocles might not be too original, but a battle between two geniuses has a lot more potential that Charles.

True, instead of geass vs geass, we now have brain vs brain

[Arabesque]

Some not really important to the overall story details were just left out like Viletta & Ougi falling cliffhanger wasn’t resolved at all. One episode they are falling to their deaths and the next one – pooof! – there is not a scratch on both of them. And this is just one example. I bet this will be explained in CD dramas or even simply left unsolved. WE haven’t seen anything like that in S1 where every secondary plot was wrapped up at the end as clean as possible.

That is not true.
-Back at season one, when Shirley shoot Viletta, there was no explanation as to why Viletta body ended up at the shore. There were no traces of blood on the floor leading from the shooting to the shore, or any suggestion that Shirley might have cared her as she had no traces of blood on her clothes. Viletta just ended there.
-There was no explanation as to why Kallen and Euphemia ended up on the island with Suzaku and Lelouch.
-No explanation as to why Mao survived injures from the police.

But even though all of the things mentioned above are important and a bit disappointing these are not the worst. The worst has become evident after the most bizarre salvation of the Geass plot. Now I should remind you what Geass plot meant for the whole Code Geass series. Geass itself was the central element that the show was presenting itself with. It was the starting point – it was the thing because of witch all this story began to unfold. And it was present all the time the story was being told. The Geass plot was and overarching mythology that bonded everything else together. From the first time we have learned something about Geass we knew that it will be the most important thing for the whole series. Everything else wasn’t as important. ….or so we thought.

Actually, the show is about Lelouch and what happens around him. He is the central element in what happens. The Geass plot was included to give the show an edge over other mecha animes. Sure, it played a large role in the story, but this is Lelouch's story in the end.

[Discerptor]

Originally Posted by linkinstreet

True, instead of geass vs geass, we now have emo vs fabulous

I fixed it for you.

[Dream_Traveller]

Uh...Mao survived because Lelouch ordered them to shoot him and not kill him, and Britannian medicine healed him. He said it himself to Lelouch.

[ZeroSama]

Originally Posted by linkinstreet

True, instead of geass vs geass, we now have "The Fabulous Hat" vs "The Fabulous One"

Originally Posted by Discerptor

I fixed it for you.

Fixed again.

[Discerptor]

Originally Posted by Dream_Traveller

Uh...Mao survived because Lelouch ordered them to shoot him and not kill him, and Britannian medicine healed him. He said it himself to Lelouch.

Not only that, but no one should care how Viletta got to the shore (either Shirley dumped her body or she wandered there herself, doesn't really matter which), and it's a fact established through C.C.'s mental conversation after the Kaminejima teleport (and Lelouch's later conversation with V.V. in R2) that V.V. transported everyone to the island.