2020 US Presidential Election Discussion (primary & general)

[cyberdemon]

Wow you’re desparate for excuses lol

[ramlaen]

Originally Posted by cyberdemon

Wow you’re desparate for excuses lol

Projection instead of a rebuttal?

[cyberdemon]

Rebut what? Your reply is so ridiculous that it doesn’t deserve a reply. But I will humor you anyways since it will be amusing.

Nothing about the laptop is verified. Just trump supporters insisting it is and claiming Russia had nothing to do with it, without proof either. It is just 1 intelligence official claiming lack of Russian involvement while MANY other intelligence officers and former intelligence directors have outright said it has all the hallmarks of Russia.

The photo of the drugged Hunter Biden was probably real but was something that could be found on the social media of those who knew him at the time. The emails have no proof that they are real. The first one could’ve been but we never see a reply. The second one doesn’t even match with his schedule.

Said pictures never existed Or even mentioned until today. That sounds more like their “smoking gun” failed to achieve the desired effect so they added more to it. They had that laptop for supposedly close to a year. They would not have remained silent if that is the case.

FBI refusing to confirm or deny things is because they have to remain neutral or Trump will accuse them of spreading a disinformation campaign and seek to have them replaced with his own yes men like he has done all through his presidency.

The laptop itself is incredibly suspicious but I have already mentioned my reasons for that.

[Jaden]

I guess if Rudy Giuliani can be tricked by Borat, he can also be manipulated by spies. That said, the laptop contents seem pretty real to me. And why are we pointing fingers at Russia anyway? Just because that's what we did in 2016? Didn't really work out then, won't now.

[ganbaru]

Originally Posted by cyberdemon

Nothing about the laptop is verified. Just trump supporters insisting it is and claiming Russia had nothing to do with it, without proof either. It is just 1 intelligence official claiming lack of Russian involvement while MANY other intelligence officers and former intelligence directors have outright said it has all the hallmarks of Russia.

Not a argument about the truthfullness (or lack of) of the story but, should comments from anyone form the intelligence community really be taked as proof, given how often they have lied to the public ?

[Sheba]

https://www.rawstory.com/2020/10/mit...0168&list_id=1

Others have warned in recent days that in preparation for a potential Trump loss next month, McConnell is laying the groundwork to force crippling austerity under a Biden administration.

Guess which snake is preparing the next elections for the house of representatives by having the Blame Biden card ready? Knowing that a lot of voters are lazy and have the memory of a goldfish.

[cyberdemon]

Originally Posted by Jaden

I guess if Rudy Giuliani can be tricked by Borat, he can also be manipulated by spies. That said, the laptop contents seem pretty real to me. And why are we pointing fingers at Russia anyway? Just because that's what we did in 2016? Didn't really work out then, won't now.

It did work out then though. What part of the laptop rings real though? I can admit when I am wrong but the entire situation seems suspicious from the timing to the content. Frankly it feels far more fabricated than anything else.

[Guardian Enzo]

No part of it rings real. It's just Fox-QAnon bullshit, and at this point there's no difference between the two.

The truth is McConnell is going to be in no position to "force" austerity" on anybody if Trump loses, because if Biden wins the Ds will almost certainly take the Senate. The problem is going to be the Supreme Court thwarting the actions of the elected president and congress, which is why you hear progressives discussing changing the size of the court to counteract Mitch stealing two seats.

[ganbaru]

Originally Posted by Guardian Enzo

The truth is McConnell is going to be in no position to "force" austerity" on anybody if Trump loses, because if Biden wins the Ds will almost certainly take the Senate. The problem is going to be the Supreme Court thwarting the actions of the elected president and congress, which is why you hear progressives discussing changing the size of the court to counteract Mitch stealing two seats.

What about the time during the transition, wouldn't that be long enough to do some damage.

[Guardian Enzo]

Yes it would, but only so much. And DJT will likely do far more harm in those intervening months.

[Jaden]

Originally Posted by cyberdemon

It did work out then though. What part of the laptop rings real though? I can admit when I am wrong but the entire situation seems suspicious from the timing to the content. Frankly it feels far more fabricated than anything else.

Russiagate was like 90% a hoax, nothing got proven and impeachment went nowhere, that's why I say that.

As for the laptop, I think it's real because some people whose addresses were in the email threads, meaning they'd have the same emails in their inbox, verified them.

It's technically possible that some of the content was fabricated on top of the original, but it's already been in possession of the authorities for a while, and it shouldn't be that hard for them to discern forgeries.

Intelligence agencies seem to want to stay quiet, which I totally understand. Nobody there wants to end up like Comey did after 2016, being dragged from one hearing to the next and having to participate in politics.

But even assuming it's real, I expect minimal effects on Joe Biden and the election, and I have four reasons:

1: it's not Joe's laptop, and he can claim ignorance on any of the content, unless he's been directly communicating with Hunter by email, which doesn't seem to be the case.
2: it's being used to accuse Joe of corruption, but the visible extent of it is that Joe has like, a nice mansion, and maybe a couple hundred mil of net worth. Peanuts compared to the stakes in a US presidential election.
3: Mainstream media + social media companies are keeping a lid on it, so more voters will know about Rudy Giuliani being creepy in Borat 2, than people who will know about the laptop.
4: Trump will use it as ammo in the last debate, but both Joe and the moderator will have prepared responses to assure the audience that it is "unverified information", "already debunked", or indeed "russian disinformation".

[Eisdrache]

Originally Posted by Jaden

Russiagate was like 90% a hoax, nothing got proven and impeachment went nowhere, that's why I say that.

Oh yes the reality bubble where the Mueller report was intended to find proof of collusion, didn't find proof that the Russian government interfered in the 2016 election in sweeping and systematic fashion and violated US criminal law, didn't show that several members of the Trump campaign had repeated contact to Russian officials, didn't find 10~11 instances of potential obstructions of justice and exonerated him of his accusations.

Originally Posted by Jaden

[...]

"I have absolutely no further basis to my allegations other than my personal speculations that "the authorities" are tampering with the "evidence" or that the moderator is tag teaming with Biden and so on but I project my statements as truth because it let's me believe what I want to believe."

You are entitled to your opinion but next time try to add some substance to it.

[Jaden]

Originally Posted by Eisdrache

Oh yes the reality bubble where the Mueller report was intended to find proof of collusion, didn't find proof that the Russian government interfered in the 2016 election in sweeping and systematic fashion and violated US criminal law, didn't show that several members of the Trump campaign had repeated contact to Russian officials, didn't find 10~11 instances of potential obstructions of justice and exonerated him of his accusations.

What you mention here would be the ~10% of what was alleged in Russiagate, and survived closer scrutiny. What is considered "sweeping and systematic" is a subjective matter, but I don't dispute any of these things.

I don't want to get back into the weeds of that story, but here's what I think is a sharp thesis on the subject: https://taibbi.substack.com/p/russia...imes-a-million

"I have absolutely no further basis to my allegations other than my personal speculations that "the authorities" are tampering with the "evidence" or that the moderator is tag teaming with Biden and so on but I project my statements as truth because it let's me believe what I want to believe."

Sorry for being unclear. I do not speculate that the authorities are tampering with evidence, I only said that they are in possession of it. This adds to its credibility, since you would expect anyone making a forgery to eventually get caught.

I don't know to what extent the debate moderator will be biased, but I made a prediction about how they will handle this topic, and we will see very shortly if I was wrong.

[SeijiSensei]

Trump's line with Lesley Stahl was to focus on the alleged money from Moscow to Hunter and the salary he was paid by Burisma. He claims no knowledge about the laptop. Maybe he will have learned more by tonight. Start around 24:00 here: https://www.realclearpolitics.com/vi...interview.html

[Eisdrache]

You say you don't dispute any of these things but link to an article that states

there was no collusion - the investigation did not aim to prove collusion and collusion is not an offense found in the US state code to begin with
no new indictments - he was not charged because they believed it would hinder the president's capacity to govern and potentially preempt constitutional processes
no conspiring/coordination with Russia - the report doesn't conclude that Trump committed a crime but it also notably does not exonerate him
quotes Barr's four page letter as gospel - which did not reflect on the report correctly

in the first five paragraphs tells me everything I need to know about this article.

[GDB]

Originally Posted by Jaden

What you mention here would be the ~10% of what was alleged in Russiagate, and survived closer scrutiny. What is considered "sweeping and systematic" is a subjective matter, but I don't dispute any of these things.

Wait, are you saying that the main crux of the Russia investigation being true and/or covered up by the GOP is only 10%, and therefore it doesn't matter?

What kind of whack ass alternate reality are you living in? Is this some nonsense where you're taking everything the GOP said as being part of the investigation as being an actual part, and since they were wrong the investigation is wrong? Or some nonsense where because Trump was impeached but not removed that it was fake, even though the GOP has proven time and again to be completely, 100% partisan hacks that wouldn't have gotten rid of him no matter what happened?

[Jaden]

I don't wish to argue about #Russiagate further. And I'll refrain from posting until after the election.

Love all of you, and I love reading these threads.

It feels a little unfair to run my mouth as an outside observer, for whom US elections are something in between reality television and a sports event - while for many of you, it is potentially life-changing.

Not saying I'm a partisan hack, and I won't accuse anyone in the thread for being one, but just the appearance of being one ruins the chances of good-faith dialogue. Maybe after the election, it'll be easier.

[ganbaru]

Originally Posted by Jaden

It feels a little unfair to run my mouth as an outside observer, for whom US elections are something in between reality television and a sports event - while for many of you, it is potentially life-changing.

I am, as a non-american like you, a ''outside observer'' but I don't consider me as a not interested by that election; whoever POTUS is, will make decission than might afffect the whole world, much more than any other country leader. As a canadian I sometime think than we might be the third most concerned by the US election ( third after the US citizen and whichever country's citizens than are and will be bombed by the US) and we have no impact on that mess.

I might only be ''running my mouth'' as it's the only think than I can do about the situation, but then again even a large part of the US electors have no impact on the result of said election.

[ramlaen]

YouTube

https://youtu.be/aiiSq7toqlQ

Sorry; dynamic content not loaded. Reload?

[Eisdrache]

Originally Posted by Jaden

I don't wish to argue about #Russiagate further.

And I'll refrain from posting until after the election.

Love all of you, and I love reading these threads.

Please don't since your take is factually wrong. Either way you're definitely more approachable than the other minion so I do hope you stay.

Originally Posted by Jaden

It feels a little unfair to run my mouth as an outside observer, for whom US elections are something in between reality television and a sports event - while for many of you, it is potentially life-changing.

The US is still one of the most influential countries on the planet and therefore can potentially have consequences that reach far further than their borders. Just look at Trump's ongoing tariff war with multiple countries.

Originally Posted by Jaden

Not saying I'm a partisan hack, and I won't accuse anyone in the thread for being one, but just the appearance of being one ruins the chances of good-faith dialogue. Maybe after the election, it'll be easier.

It's not that surprising that people don't want to discuss with someone who denies any criticism of their side but is perfectly fine blaming others. Not referring to you but in general you get the idea.