AnimeSuki Forums

Haak · 2018-06-15, 16:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by wissenschaft

I feel like people are fishing for meaning where there is none. Kind of reminds me of all the long essays written about Eva and its Christian symbolism when its there only to look cool and be mysterious (and man did it work). What commentary there is would be on human interactions and communication which is the focus of the show. We've had far more focus in this show then kids interactions with each other than anything else.

It's not like the Fantastic Aesop problem doesn't apply to this either.

"Be willing to rebel against authority. You never know if your leaders are alien invaders in disguise fighting the ancient dino people hidden on the planet! YOU NEVER KNOW!"

Quote:

For example, I just think is a big leap to think the show is somehow anti-fracking because magma energy was mined out of the ground. Of course, lets not forget this show is all about getting the Japanese to reproduce more.

I was only half serious about that. I agree that the focus "society" has been minimal and there's nothing wrong with that though. I was just commenting on what little was there. Like all the crap that was in Episode 19.

wissenschaft · 2018-06-15, 16:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Haak

It's not like the Fantastic Aesop problem doesn't apply to this either.

"Be willing to rebel against authority. You never know if your leaders are alien invaders in disguise fighting the ancient dino people hidden on the planet! YOU NEVER KNOW!"

That I will agree with. If they wanted Virm to be in the show then they should have prepared us for it far sooner. Say, hinting that the plantations were formed after a great war from an invader. Just leaving out the part about the invaders being Aliens. That would have made it less jarring of a reveal.

YouTube

https://youtu.be/LDLNHnQlloo

Sorry; dynamic content not loaded. Reload?

Unsurprisingly, a two hour video. He did not like the episode. A lot rides on these last four episodes.

Funkatron · 2018-06-15, 18:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by wissenschaft

That I will agree with. If they wanted Virm to be in the show then they should have prepared us for it far sooner. Say, hinting that the plantations were formed after a great war from an invader. Just leaving out the part about the invaders being Aliens. That would have made it less jarring of a reveal.

YouTube

https://youtu.be/LDLNHnQlloo

Sorry; dynamic content not loaded. Reload?

Unsurprisingly, a two hour video. He did not like the episode. A lot rides on these last four episodes.

The sucky part is his theory he speculated on in his last episode would have worked sooooo much better.

Also his "No Surprise Aliens" policy is a good one

wissenschaft · 2018-06-15, 18:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by Funkatron

Also his "No Surprise Aliens" policy is a good one

More specifically, he points out that either the Klaosaurs or humans being revealed to be aliens would have been fine. Thats more what I was expecting. The "no surprise aliens" rule is more a no surprise faction at the end of a story. Such a twist lends too heavily in the direction of Deus Ex Machina. Except your replacing gods with aliens. Of course, as Nearly on Red points out, there are famous exceptions to the rule such as War of the Worlds but those are exceptions because the story had a specific purpose that required such a jarring twist.

To bring it all together, for this Virm twist to work it has to lead into how Hiro x ZeroTwo's story will be resolved. If it doesn't then yes, it was a flaw ending and a poor execution of such a twist.

Funkatron · 2018-06-15, 18:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by wissenschaft

More specifically, he points out that either the Klaosaurs or humans being revealed to be aliens would have been fine. Thats more what I was expecting. The "no surprise aliens" rule is more a no surprise faction at the end of a story. Such a twist lends too heavily in the direction of Deus Ex Machina. Of course, as Nearly on Red points out, there are famous exceptions to the rule such as War of the Worlds but those are exceptions because the story had a specific purpose that required such a jarring twist.

Even Gurren Lagann spoon fed us clues till they revealed aliens.

Kazu-kun · 2018-06-15, 18:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by wissenschaft

More specifically, he points out that either the Klaosaurs or humans being revealed to be aliens would have been fine. Thats more what I was expecting. The "no surprise aliens" rule is more a no surprise faction at the end of a story. Such a twist lends too heavily in the direction of Deus Ex Machina. Except your replacing gods with aliens. Of course, as Nearly on Red points out, there are famous exceptions to the rule such as War of the Worlds but those are exceptions because the story had a specific purpose that required such a jarring twist.

To bring it all together, for this Virm twist to work it has to lead into how Hiro x ZeroTwo's story will be resolved. If it doesn't then yes, it was a flaw ending and a poor execution of such a twist.

Well, APE always felt otherworldly. You know, the masks and all that. You could tell there was a mystery about them. Then when princess called them "wannabe-humans" that pretty much settled it. The alien twist wasn't a twist at all. Not if you were paying attention.

kari-no-sugata II · 2018-06-15, 18:55

If there was one problem with the theory that some of the APE council members were "male klaxosaurs" (a theory I liked) is that they seemed rather dismissive of klaxosaurs in general - it felt more like the attitude of a third party.

But anyway... yeah, there's a lot of things the writing should have done... and should have not done.

kk2extreme · 2018-06-15, 19:05

Alien doesn't make sense to me. I will just roll with it.

Blueknight78 · 2018-06-15, 19:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kazu-kun

Well, APE always felt otherworldly. You know, the masks and all that. You could tell there was a mystery about them. Then when princess called them "wannabe-humans" that pretty much settled it. The alien twist wasn't a twist at all. Not if you were paying attention.

yeah i really don't understand that sort of reactions, toward then being aliens, you have the clues in anime and even in interviews, the writers told which APE are not humans, you have all the clue about them being something else, i was beting in then being "AI"s created but i was wrong, just because he don't liked that idea this don't means which they never dropped any clue about.

Twi · 2018-06-15, 20:08

We were arranging for a revolution. The story was already racing down a highway to that and then it abruptly swerved off the road to aliens. There's the whining, you can't pull that out of nowhere at episode 20 in a 24-25 episode series. If they were going to do that, it should've been sooner. It'd be a miracle if it doesn't go off the cliff perched far ahead unless they swerve it back.

Blueknight78 · 2018-06-15, 20:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Twi

We were arranging for a revolution. The story was already racing down a highway to that and then it abruptly swerved off the road to aliens. There's the whining, you can't pull that out of nowhere at episode 20 in a 24-25 episode series. If they were going to do that, it should've been sooner. It'd be a miracle if it doesn't go off the cliff perched far ahead unless they swerve it back.

that is the problem it not was "out of nowhere, you have the hints about APE not being human them if they are not humans, they could be "anything", from others klaxs, to robots to allien, if they bring a so advanced tech to mankind and did all what they did it showed which they where really special or different, it's just which looks "so hard" to accept it.

The hints where there, from early episodes, it not was "out of nowhere, that is my point.

Kazu-kun · 2018-06-15, 20:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Twi

We were arranging for a revolution. The story was already racing down a highway to that

Not really. It was made awfully clear the kids weren't going to rebel. Hiro had decided to fulfill their last mission as ordered instead of rebelling and that was that.

Revealing that Papa was not just a jerk but the true enemy of humanity was about the only way to push the kids to rebel. The twist was necessary to push the plot towards the climax. And honestly, it wasn't even a twist. There was foreshadowing Papa wasn't human.

Blueknight78 · 2018-06-15, 21:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kazu-kun

Not really. It was made awfully clear the kids weren't going to rebel. Hiro had decided to fulfill their last mission as ordered instead of rebelling and that was that.

Revealing that Papa was not just a jerk but the true enemy of humanity was about the only way to push the kids to rebel. The twist was necessary to push the plot towards the climax. And honestly, it wasn't even a twist. There was foreshadowing Papa wasn't human.

yeah as we saw and again the writers told in the interviews, hiro is not you "generic mc" which wannabe the mankind savior, which open rebel against the enemie.

Hiro was very down to earth, he know the danger and how strong PAPA and humans where and how hard could be to him to "open rebel" against them, he instead of "heroic path" played the PAPA game to see if he can achieve what he wanted, ofcourse he as everyone was fooled by the alliens but he really not was that "kind of hero", some peoples even talked about the marriage being a "plan" of hiro to "test" papa and adults to see how much he can go if he wanted to something to himself, he used mitsuru and kokoro as "bait".

Obelisk ze Tormentor · 2018-06-15, 21:15

To be fair, the alien-reveal is not outside the realm of possibility in the first place, especially if you know Trigger's tendency in their sci-fi mecha shows. Heck, many people were already anticipating it, including me. Here's a piece of my post discussing the alien-nature of APE with Magewolf well before episode 20 happened:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Obelisk ze Tormentor

Quote:

Originally Posted by Magewolf

It is rather standard for aliens, time travelers, or crosstime travelers to claim to be scientific geniuses to explain their access to higher tech levels. So if that is what they were doing they were doing it to fool the normal humans not the audience.

Yes, that's the standard, but do you really want this show to be even more mediocre than it already is? Me, I actually want this show to be better and so I suggested the "scientists but also aliens/future-men/dimension-men/etc"-idea or vice versa however you like it (I mean, advanced aliens has scientists among them, right? Like Kryptonians). The show can have it both ways and that will actually give a new spin to the standard cliche where the mysterious scientists turn out to be just aliens or *insert other plain description here*.

We can see the alien-reveal coming, but the quality of the writing is still questionable at best until we actually see how it all ends. The fact that the show went with the tired route of "we're super genius scientists because we're just aliens!" is already discouraging so far.

Magewolf · 2018-06-15, 22:01

I think the problem is not just that they are aliens,something like that was pretty obviously coming. Though having them be more closely tied to the Klax would have worked better. But that the reveal came with a giant interstellar war and an all new alien race in episode 20 with only 4 episodes to tie everything together.

Jord · 2018-06-15, 23:21

I understand why that analysis and the overall criticism against the last 2-3 episodes is so hard.

If we look at how things happened in the series in an incredibly small period of time we can see that there is too much stuff that was pull out of nowhere and ended on ruining the expectations of the series in terms of development, by that I mean everything was absolutely predictable and the execution was poorly done.
That said, the Alien thing was too much, the mystery and theories went down the toilet because of that and right now this is not anymore about Humans vs Klaxos and kids, this is "Aliens and spacebattles lmao" kind of bullshit. Is still entertaining but the quality of the series went down because of it.

In my opinion, if they wanted to introduce all the alien thing they should've done it on more episodes, now the series is almost done and all what we have left is watching how someone dies, if the main heroine sacrifice herself or if there will be a happy ending.

Cosmic Eagle · 2018-06-16, 01:34

Caught up to the last week's ep

suddenly, aliens, lolwat. That was ....the most simplistic direction they could have went and they took it. There isn't even enough time left to build them up into more than just faceless random enemy number 153772677272....

Gan_HOPE326 · 2018-06-16, 03:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Haak

"Be willing to rebel against authority. You never know if your leaders are alien invaders in disguise fighting the ancient dino people hidden on the planet! YOU NEVER KNOW!"

I'm pretty sure there's a conspiracy theorist out there who thinks this is very relevant and Trigger is in fact taking some serious shots at The Man. I mean, the whole "world leaders are secretly aliens" is an actual conspiracy theory that some people seriously believe already

.

PhoenixRising · 2018-06-16, 10:10

Post-Livestream Episode 21 Impressions

Spoiler:

The entire episode was awesome, it felt more like a final episode (even though it's not), but they basically confirmed what we knew about the Klaxxosaurs - they also gave a lot more backstory to the Klaxxosaurs in it.

Basically, from my not-so-great understanding of the raw live-stream, Klaxxosapiens were an ancient race of people who had cities similar to the ones that Hiro and the others have. Roughly 60,000,000 years ago, they were approached and invaded by the VIRM. The VIRM wanted to devour their souls, but the Klaxxosapiens fought back and a war started. The Klaxxosapiens created the Klaxxosaurs to fend off the VIRM, but the VIRM retaliated with their own mechs. Somehow, they managed to fend them off, but most of the people chose to turn themselves into Magma to supply power to the planet and prepare for a re-invasion.

Dr. Franxx also reveals that he had created ZeroTwo from Klaxxosaur Princess’ DNA, but that the Nines are actually clones of ZeroTwo who were meant to be her stamen, but none of them was compatible with her.

The one major bummer was that the VIRM got away and promised to come back.

These were the highlights of the episode for me.

Best Moments

Klaxxosaur Princess experiencing ZeroTwo’s memories and Hiro conversing and experiencing Klaxxosaur Princess’s memories of the VIRM was interesting.
Squad 13 taking some initiative during the battle.
Nines all horribly murdered by the VIRMs except for Nine Alpha whose completely lost after Papa abandoned him.
ZeroTwo is so noble when she declares that she will go rescue Hiro regardless of whether she’s a monster.
Everyone has gathered together to rescue Hiro. Ikuno and Futoshi blasted open the opening to the tunnel, but Ikuno’s hair turned all white in the process. Miku and Kokoro stay behind to protect them.
Hiro and Klaxxosaur Princess reach an understanding through talking and sharing memories.
Delphinium having its arm ripped off by a VIRM and Goro and Ichigo pushing it off into a hole.
I’m happy that ZeroTwo thanked the doctor for allowing her to meet Hiro.
All of the ending!! ZeroTwo sacrificing herself to save the world with the Klaxxosaur Princess lending ZeroTwo her power. The mistletoe. Hiro and ZeroTwo became one.
Miku, Zorome, Mitsuru and Kokoro are still alive !
No, ZeroTwo is braindead or her consciousness is trapped inside the Apath!!!

Weird Parts:

The start of the episode with most of the adults having their souls sucked out by the VIRM.
Dr. Franxx kept the Klaxxosaur’s Princess’ DNA in his metal arm!!?
Hringihorn was activated, but it was just used as an escape ship.

Edit: Re-edited with more info from the episode.

KPSJ · 2018-06-16, 10:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by PhoenixRising

Post-Livestream Episode 22 Impressions

Spoiler:

The entire episode was awesome, it felt more like a final episode (even though it's not), but they basically confirmed what we knew about the Klaxxosaurs - they also gave a lot more backstory to the Klaxxosaurs in it.

Basically from my moderate understanding of the raw live-stream, Klaxxosapiens were an ancient race of people who were approached and invaded by the VIRM, roughly 6000 years ago. They wanted to devour their souls, but the Klaxxosapiens fought back and a war started. The Klaxxosapiens created the Klaxxosaurs to fend off the VIRM, but the VIRM retaliated with their own mechs. Somehow, they managed to fend them off, but most of the people chose to turn themselves into Magma to supply power to the planet and prepare for a re-invasion.

Dr. Franxx also reveals that he had created ZeroTwo from Klaxxosaur Princess’ DNA, but that the Nines are actually clones of ZeroTwo who were meant to be her stamen, but none of them was compatible with her.

These were the highlights of the episode for me.

Best Moments

Klaxxosaur Princess experiencing ZeroTwo’s memories and Hiro conversing and experiencing Klaxxosaur Princess’s memories of the VIRM was interesting.
Squad 13 taking some initiative during the battle.
Nines all horribly murdered by the VIRMs except for Nine Alpha whose completely lost after Papa abandoned him.
ZeroTwo is so noble when she declares that she will go rescue Hiro regardless of whether she’s a monster.
Everyone has gathered together to rescue Hiro. Ikuno and Futoshi blasted open the opening to the tunnel, but Ikuno’s hair turned all white in the process. Miku and Kokoro stay behind to protect them.
Hiro and Klaxxosaur Princess reach an understanding through talking and sharing memories.
I’m happy that ZeroTwo thanked the doctor for allowing her to meet Hiro. She was 13 when she met Hiro again.
All of the ending!! No, ZeroTwo sacrificing herself to save the world with the Klaxxosaur Princess lending ZeroTwo her power. The mistletoe. Hiro and ZeroTwo became one.
Miku and Kokoro are still alive, !
No, ZeroTwo is braindead or her consciousness is trapped inside the Apath!!!

I love that you break it down for us phoenix!!! Thank you for doing this everyweek.

2018-06-15, 20:08	Link #3750
Twi Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2011	We were arranging for a revolution. The story was already racing down a highway to that and then it abruptly swerved off the road to aliens. There's the whining, you can't pull that out of nowhere at episode 20 in a 24-25 episode series. If they were going to do that, it should've been sooner. It'd be a miracle if it doesn't go off the cliff perched far ahead unless they swerve it back. __________________

2018-06-16, 01:34	Link #3757
Cosmic Eagle 今宵の虎徹は血に飢えている Join Date: Jan 2009	Caught up to the last week's ep suddenly, aliens, lolwat. That was ....the most simplistic direction they could have went and they took it. There isn't even enough time left to build them up into more than just faceless random enemy number 153772677272.... __________________

2018-06-16, 10:10	Link #3759
PhoenixRising Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2016	Post-Livestream Episode 21 Impressions Spoiler: The entire episode was awesome, it felt more like a final episode (even though it's not), but they basically confirmed what we knew about the Klaxxosaurs - they also gave a lot more backstory to the Klaxxosaurs in it. Basically, from my not-so-great understanding of the raw live-stream, Klaxxosapiens were an ancient race of people who had cities similar to the ones that Hiro and the others have. Roughly 60,000,000 years ago, they were approached and invaded by the VIRM. The VIRM wanted to devour their souls, but the Klaxxosapiens fought back and a war started. The Klaxxosapiens created the Klaxxosaurs to fend off the VIRM, but the VIRM retaliated with their own mechs. Somehow, they managed to fend them off, but most of the people chose to turn themselves into Magma to supply power to the planet and prepare for a re-invasion. Dr. Franxx also reveals that he had created ZeroTwo from Klaxxosaur Princess’ DNA, but that the Nines are actually clones of ZeroTwo who were meant to be her stamen, but none of them was compatible with her. The one major bummer was that the VIRM got away and promised to come back. These were the highlights of the episode for me. Best Moments Klaxxosaur Princess experiencing ZeroTwo’s memories and Hiro conversing and experiencing Klaxxosaur Princess’s memories of the VIRM was interesting. Squad 13 taking some initiative during the battle. Nines all horribly murdered by the VIRMs except for Nine Alpha whose completely lost after Papa abandoned him. ZeroTwo is so noble when she declares that she will go rescue Hiro regardless of whether she’s a monster. Everyone has gathered together to rescue Hiro. Ikuno and Futoshi blasted open the opening to the tunnel, but Ikuno’s hair turned all white in the process. Miku and Kokoro stay behind to protect them. Hiro and Klaxxosaur Princess reach an understanding through talking and sharing memories. Delphinium having its arm ripped off by a VIRM and Goro and Ichigo pushing it off into a hole. I’m happy that ZeroTwo thanked the doctor for allowing her to meet Hiro. All of the ending!! ZeroTwo sacrificing herself to save the world with the Klaxxosaur Princess lending ZeroTwo her power. The mistletoe. Hiro and ZeroTwo became one. Miku, Zorome, Mitsuru and Kokoro are still alive ! No, ZeroTwo is braindead or her consciousness is trapped inside the Apath!!! Weird Parts: The start of the episode with most of the adults having their souls sucked out by the VIRM. Dr. Franxx kept the Klaxxosaur’s Princess’ DNA in his metal arm!!? Hringihorn was activated, but it was just used as an escape ship. Edit: Re-edited with more info from the episode. Last edited by PhoenixRising; 2018-06-16 at 11:35. Reason: Added some additional spoilers.

2018-06-15, 18:55	Link #3747
kari-no-sugata II Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2015	If there was one problem with the theory that some of the APE council members were "male klaxosaurs" (a theory I liked) is that they seemed rather dismissive of klaxosaurs in general - it felt more like the attitude of a third party. But anyway... yeah, there's a lot of things the writing should have done... and should have not done.

2018-06-15, 19:05	Link #3748
kk2extreme Your wife is hot... Join Date: May 2008 Location: At your house fixing A/C	Alien doesn't make sense to me. I will just roll with it.

2018-06-15, 22:01	Link #3755
Magewolf Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2006	I think the problem is not just that they are aliens,something like that was pretty obviously coming. Though having them be more closely tied to the Klax would have worked better. But that the reveal came with a giant interstellar war and an all new alien race in episode 20 with only 4 episodes to tie everything together.

2018-06-15, 23:21	Link #3756
Jord Banned Join Date: May 2018	I understand why that analysis and the overall criticism against the last 2-3 episodes is so hard. If we look at how things happened in the series in an incredibly small period of time we can see that there is too much stuff that was pull out of nowhere and ended on ruining the expectations of the series in terms of development, by that I mean everything was absolutely predictable and the execution was poorly done. That said, the Alien thing was too much, the mystery and theories went down the toilet because of that and right now this is not anymore about Humans vs Klaxos and kids, this is "Aliens and spacebattles lmao" kind of bullshit. Is still entertaining but the quality of the series went down because of it. In my opinion, if they wanted to introduce all the alien thing they should've done it on more episodes, now the series is almost done and all what we have left is watching how someone dies, if the main heroine sacrifice herself or if there will be a happy ending.