Funimation Sues 1,337 Torrent Users Over One Piece

[GDB]

Originally Posted by InitialGT

just made a note of which service providers not to go to if i decide to change isp lol

Why? It's not like those service providers are ratting out their customers. Funi went into the torrent and grabbed the IPs of the sharers. Nothing the SPs could do about that, it's on the consumer.

Originally Posted by IronWarrior

Personally reading a lot of comments here disgusts me, it seems a lot of you people like it when kids and students get sued.

Funi are just on the band-wagon and has seen an opening to make easy money. Just because someone watchs something for free, does not equal to a lost sale.

Except Funi does have a legally free stream of the very same show, which is what got ripped, and that stream provides them revenue. So yes, it is a loss of revenue for them.

[mindovermatter]

Originally Posted by ashesatdusk

I'm willing to bet a lot more fans would buy products regularly if there was no downloading/file sharing. 85% of the Anime+ Manga market is merchandise sales. I'm fully willing to bet people would take their money out of cosplays, figurines, other trinkets and buy manga+anime instead if downloading wasn't there.

there is some legitimacy to what you're saying here, but it can go the other way as well.
Recently I bought (for $16) both Onegai twins light novels because I couldn't find a free E-book version anywhere on the web. If I had been able to find one, I probably wouldn't have bought it.
On the other hand, if I had never watched the anime online I wouldn't be interested in the books at all (or even have known about them). I've spent money in at least 3 different countries on anime related products (manga, figurines, pencils, etc). I don't do that for anything else. The reason I bought those things was A) because I was a fan of the anime and B) because I consider myself an "anime fan" in general, and so anime things attract me.
I've also been to an anime con, and some times attend anime club meetings. All of those things (going to cons, attending meetings, buying related merchandise) are only because I was able to watch easily and freely anime at home. never would have become an anime fan if all I had ever seen were Naruto and Inuyahsa (those actually weren't my first animes, but the point is that since those are the main ones on American air waves, it's most likely going to be the average kids gateway into anime). So yeah, every time I watch anime on youtube (or other streaming sites) I may be technically losing the company money, but in the big picture I do help the anime industry out.
There is also no way I'm going to consistently spend $20-$30 on a DVD for only 5 episodes (or even by a whole series for DL at a slightly cheaper price). I won't start a series if I know that it's too hard to find all the episodes online. This basically hurts the company, because that means I'll never become a fan of that anime, and never decide to buy the manga or figurines (not that I do that for every anime I see, but if I have some extra money, and there is an anime I really like, and I see a related product in the store, I will buy it if I can afford it)

[sccpink]

http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/inte...eaked-episodes Here is the interview ANN had with Funimation following the leaks of episode 403 of One Piece and episode 4 of Phantom, where they discussed the below topic.

ANN: How are you going to deal with the potential comparison that people may make between your legal actions and the RIAA ?

The RIAA typically went after individuals who downloaded the content. Our focus is to enforce our rights by notifying the groups which distribute the infringing content (torrent sites, fansub groups, IRC, illegal anime streaming/downloading sites, counterfeit DVDs sellers.)

By starting to sue torrent sharing individuals, Funimation has flip-flopped on their stance concerning limiting their legal action to the distribution level.

In my opinion, Funimation has done little lately to enforce their copyrights at the distribution level. Fansubs of their licenses have rolled out uninterrupted since at least 2008.

The last title I noticed that Funimation seriously wanted the fansubs stopped on was "Slayers Revolution". Funimation also briefly got Tokyotosho.info shut down over too many DMCA's, before they moved their servers to Sweden.

In the end, I believe this lawsuit will be dropped in its current form, as shown by previous cases of similar conditions, and Funimation has shown only that they are more bark than bite, and that they have only succeeded to further damage their already low PR rating.

[IronWarrior]

Originally Posted by GDB

Except Funi does have a legally free stream of the very same show, which is what got ripped, and that stream provides them revenue. So yes, it is a loss of revenue for them.

Please stop making up things, can you prove that an person would watch the free steam still.

I can tell you right now, I wouldn't. I prefer to download my stuff because I know I can get it better then watch it through a service that doesn't offer as good quality as something in 1080p and as such, they didn't make anything.

Honestly, this idea that one download equals to one loss, even if the same thing is free has nothing to stand on. A lot of TV shows and movies are shown free on TV all the time, that doesn't stop anyone from downloading them.

[mindovermatter]

Originally Posted by IronWarrior

Please stop making up things, can you prove that an person would watch the free steam still.

I can tell you right now, I wouldn't. I prefer to download my stuff because I know I can get it better then watch it through a service that doesn't offer as good quality as something in 1080p and as such, they didn't make anything.

Honestly, this idea that one download equals to one loss, even if the same thing is free has nothing to stand on. A lot of TV shows and movies are shown free on TV all the time, that doesn't stop anyone from downloading them.

I think casual fans would rather watch anime streamed instead of waiting for a download, finding HD space to put it, and worrying about organizing the files which tend to get corrupted (I recently lost about 500gb of movies and anime do to a corrupted external HD (and yes, it's physically painful)). Generally, if I'm interested in a show, but not a crazy fan, I prefer to stream it. If it's really bad quality though, I will search elsewhere. I like to watch anime full screen.

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by IronWarrior

Please stop making up things, can you prove that an person would watch the free steam still.

I can tell you right now, I wouldn't. I prefer to download my stuff because I know I can get it better then watch it through a service that doesn't offer as good quality as something in 1080p and as such, they didn't make anything.

Honestly, this idea that one download equals to one loss, even if the same thing is free has nothing to stand on. A lot of TV shows and movies are shown free on TV all the time, that doesn't stop anyone from downloading them.

So you would choose to not watch anime at all (or stick strictly to DVDs) rather than watch an anime streamed at 360p or 480p from a legal online distributor?

The point that some folks are making (and that I'm inclined to agree with) is that if the pirated version was not available, then a lot of the pirates would check out the stream (if it's available in their region, of course).


The old argument of "1 fansub viewing equals 1 lost DVD sale" is a very flawed one, with major holes in it. Those holes are the following:

1. A fansub is free, while an anime DVD is not free at all, and can (depending on one's financial situation) be a bit expensive. There's a huge difference between someone being willing to watch something for free, and being willing to pay significant money to watch something.

2. Many of the people who watch anime have no interest in physical copies of it. They just want to watch the video content, and they have no interest in having DVD collections of anime.


However, the newer argument of "1 fansub viewing equals 1 lost stream view" is one that I think is probably close to the truth (it's very rare to have 1:1 correlation with anything, but I definitely can see a very, very high percentage of One Piece fansub watchers living in America switching over to Funi streams if Funi streams were the only way to view One Piece online), as it doesn't have the two major holes listed above as factors.

While people may prefer a fansub to a stream, I don't think that most fansub watchers would choose to not partake of the stream if the fansub option wasn't there.


So, while I personally doubt that anime piracy has a major impact on DVD sales, I do think that it has a major impact on the number of views that Funimation is able to get for its streams.


This, incidentally, is a big part of the reason why I'm divided on this issue.

As it pertains to DVD/Blu-Ray sales, I honestly don't think that fansubs hurt sales much.

But as it pertains to legal streams, yeah, I do think that fansubs are hurting Funimation there.


And the fact that it's One Piece makes some of the arguments for fansubs over legal streams lose some of their weight for me, in this particular instance.

I mean, One Piece is not Gundam Unicorn or even Shakugan no Shana. It has very basic and streamlined artwork and animation. Now I'm not saying it's bad, I'm just saying that it's not something that you need really high definition in order to get a decent viewing of it (Shakugan no Shana looks blurry beyond belief in anything below 480, and to get a truly clear picture you want at least 720, imo). One Piece is not really something, imo, that if you watch it in 360 or 480 as opposed to 720 or 1080, that you're missing out a big huge deal (as you would be with some different animes).

To be blunt, I think that people that are into One Piece, and have Funimation streams available in their country and/or region, probably should be going the stream route in order to support the anime industry.

I think that at some point, some onus should fall on fans to support the creators, producers, and distributors who invest significant time and/or money in order to bring anime to the masses.


Anime, like money, doesn't grow on trees. It requires a lot of time, effort, money, and resources to create. If there's a reasonably good (not perfect, just reasonably good) legal online distribution chain that a fan can partake of, then they probably should, imo.

Of course, region locking means that this isn't an option for all of us. It is for One Piece fans living in America though.

[Equidistant]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

The point that some folks are making (and that I'm inclined to agree with) is that if the pirated version was not available, then a lot of the pirates would check out the stream (if it's available in their region, of course).

The interesting thing about this is the specific fansub they're targeting came out almost two weeks after Funi had their stream up. Funi's stream was of course ripped almost immediately, yet they didn't chose to go after the people downloading torrents of that. That seems a bit weird to me considering targeting people who are downloading a direct rip of their free stream and possibly scaring people off would seem to be more beneficial to them rather than targeting people who waited 2 weeks, and who have may already watched Funi's stream(given people's need for instant gratification and all), and are just downloading something later for quality. If they just targeted the torrents of the direct rips, and this big a deal were made about it I think a lot of people just wouldn't even bother risking getting sued and just watch the official stream from Funi.

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by CantQuiteGuess

The interesting thing about this is the specific fansub they're targeting came out almost two weeks after Funi had their stream up. Funi's stream was of course ripped almost immediately, yet they didn't chose to go after the people downloading torrents of that. That seems a bit weird to me considering targeting people who are downloading a direct rip of their free stream and possibly scaring people off would seem to be more beneficial to them rather than targeting people who waited 2 weeks, and who have may already watched Funi's stream(given people's need for instant gratification and all), and are just downloading something later for quality. If they just targeted the torrents of the direct rips, and this big a deal were made about it I think a lot of people just wouldn't even bother risking getting sued and just watch the official stream from Funi.

Yeah, I see your point there.

It is generally more effective to go after distributors/dealers/suppliers than it is to go after those who take from them.

All I can say here is that perhaps Funimation is worried about getting into foreign jurisdictions if they go after the fansubbers who put up the torrent in the first place. IIRC, a lot of fansub gorups have members in it from many different countries, and Funimation would have no jurisdiction in those foreign countries.

[Equidistant]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

Yeah, I see your point there.

It is generally more effective to go after distributors/dealers/suppliers than it is to go after those who take from them.

All I can say here is that perhaps Funimation is worried about getting into foreign jurisdictions if they go after the fansubbers who put up the torrent in the first place. IIRC, a lot of fansub gorups have members in it from many different countries, and Funimation would have no jurisdiction in those foreign countries.

Actually what I was suggesting was doing the same thing their doing now, which is going after the people downloading torrents(or at least making it seem like it, hard to tell if they're going to take this all the way), yet target the people downloading the direct rips of their streams. If I downloaded a rip of one of Funi's streams, and Funi responded by suing people who downloaded that rip, then I feel I'd be much less likely to continue doing that, even if I wasn't being sued. It'd make no sense considering I could just stream it for free from them.

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by CantQuiteGuess

Actually what I was suggesting was doing the same thing their doing now, which is going after the people downloading torrents(or at least making it seem like it, hard to tell if they're going to take this all the way), yet target the people downloading the direct rips of their streams. If I downloaded a rip of one of Funi's streams, and Funi responded by suing people who downloaded that rip, then I feel I'd be much less likely to continue doing that, even if I wasn't being sued. It'd make no sense considering I could just stream it for free from them.

Ah, sorry for initially misreading you there.

Yeah, that probably would be a better course of action for Funimation. Probably better for PR reasons too. I mean, I'm actually a bit surprised that Funimation hasn't made a bigger deal over how its often specifically their streams that are being ripped and used (as opposed to the initial raw that showed up on Japanese TV).

[Random32]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

However, the newer argument of "1 fansub viewing equals 1 lost stream view" is one that I think is probably close to the truth (it's very rare to have 1:1 correlation with anything, but I definitely can see a very, very high percentage of One Piece fansub watchers living in America switching over to Funi streams if Funi streams were the only way to view One Piece online), as it doesn't have the two major holes listed above as factors.

While people may prefer a fansub to a stream, I don't think that most fansub watchers would choose to not partake of the stream if the fansub option wasn't there.
But as it pertains to legal streams, yeah, I do think that fansubs are hurting Funimation there.

1 fansub != 1 stream view. I doubt its even close, probably closer than dvd:fansub, but still far from being 1:1.

I think these reasons are the top 3 largest for not being able to watch streams.
1. Region Locking. You acknowledge it yourself later on that the stream is not an option for people that are region locked. I think the majority of One Piece watchers that are in the US watch the stream, some might prefer the quality of the fansub, but I bet most people don't want to mess around with torrents or xdcc for a fairly minor (in this case) increase in quality.
2. Streaming requires an internet connection while you are watching. Most of us don't have an internet connection 24/7. For example, many people that I know like to watch anime on their commutes to work, city buses, subways, etc don't have free wifi...
3. Streaming usually requires Flash. Is flash universal? Maybe on computers, but a lot of mobiles devices don't have flash. This problem can be solved by releasing apps, but that still only covers platforms you have apps for.

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by Random32

1 fansub != 1 stream view. I doubt its even close, probably closer than dvd:fansub, but still far from being 1:1.

I think these reasons are the top 3 largest for not being able to watch streams.
1. Region Locking. You acknowledge it yourself later on that the stream is not an option for people that are region locked. I think the majority of One Piece watchers that are in the US watch the stream, some might prefer the quality of the fansub, but I bet most people don't want to mess around with torrents or xdcc for a fairly minor (in this case) increase in quality.

Right, and I hope that you're right about the majority of One Piece watchers that are in the US choosing to watch the stream.

My wording may have been a bit unwieldy, but I was trying to say that the 1:1 correlation would only be in any way applicable to American viewers (which are the ones that Funimation are targeting). In other words, you would only have something even close to 1:1 strictly amongst the American fanbase.

I agree that Region Locking is a big, big problem for those of us (including myself) who are outside of America. I'm 100% with people who choose to use fansubs because there simply is no legal digital distribution method available to their country. The lack of such a distribution method is nobody's fault except the anime industry's.

2. Streaming requires an internet connection while you are watching. Most of us don't have an internet connection 24/7. For example, many people that I know like to watch anime on their commutes to work, city buses, subways, etc don't have free wifi...

Good point. Ideally, Funi would offer a download option.

3. Streaming usually requires Flash. Is flash universal? Maybe on computers, but a lot of mobiles devices don't have flash. This problem can be solved by releasing apps, but that still only covers platforms you have apps for.

That's a good point... and one that I admit didn't cross my mind. Well, I might need to rethink my argument a bit then. Thanks for bringing this up.

Yeah, if a lot of these sued IP addresses tie back to mobile devices, then I hope that Funi learns a lesson from that.

[synaesthetic]

Just wanted to mention:

In the case of Magical Girl Lyrical Nanoha, I downloaded the DGz fansubs ages ago and enjoyed them. Kept them. When the DVDs came out after Geneon USA's financial crisis ended in giving up most of their portfolio to Funi, I bought the DVDs...

... because they offered an advantage over the fansubs. They were 16:9 widescreen, not cropped 4:3.

Now trying to figure out how to use my .ass subs ripped from my fansubs, on the DVD 16:9 video stream... the timing is all whacked.

[Simon]

Originally Posted by Random32

3. Streaming usually requires Flash. Is flash universal? Maybe on computers, but a lot of mobiles devices don't have flash. This problem can be solved by releasing apps, but that still only covers platforms you have apps for.

It's not just about platform availability: with Adobe's miserable security record some people view Flash as only one step removed from malware. I refuse to even install it on my Linux machines, instead I keep a sacrificial Windows laptop as my entertainment box and wrap NoScript / FlashBlock around the plugin to get what protection I can.

Putting security ahead of convenience might be a minority position, but forcing people to use one bad piece of software isn't a good way to grow your market.

Originally Posted by synaesthetic

Now trying to figure out how to use my .ass subs ripped from my fansubs, on the DVD 16:9 video stream... the timing is all whacked.

Chance to practise your Aegisub skills? Retiming line-by-line would be painful, but from memory it lets you apply linear offsets to segments of the script quite easily.

[bayoab]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

Yeah, if a lot of these sued IP addresses tie back to mobile devices, then I hope that Funi learns a lesson from that.

A quick look at the ISP list tells us that the answer to that is only a handful and odds are they are people tethered. Remember, we're talking about a torrent for a 720p video. There are very few phones that can even support either one of those.

[Dist]

ISP list where ?

[xanas3712]

Originally Posted by ashesatdusk

I'm an economics grad student.

I consider myself a student of economics, but of a different sort than most.

http://www.mises.org is a primary website for the Austrian School. It's not extremely prominent since it doesn't support state intervention and unfortunately most economists are looking for government sponsored jobs (or jobs in companies looking for motivate government policies that are to their advantage).

Austrians are big critics of interventions such as wage and price controls, and central banking. Most are not fans of fractional reserve banking at all, which is seen as fraudulent (when it comes to things like checking accounts, not on investments).

Which is to foster innovation.

An alternative perspective on this (from a practicing patent attorney no less) http://blog.mises.org/14065/costs-of...tem-revisited/

A lot of products, cost an insane amount to develop, but are ridiculously easy to replicate. The classic examples are medicine, but movies, television and music fall into the same example. Companies pour millions in to make shows. Your right there is no guarantee people will watch them. They have no right to a profit.

There are also other perspectives on science:
http://www.cobdencentre.org/2011/01/...e-free-market/

You brought up a good point here on movies/TV. Simply not watching "deprives" them of money they could otherwise have. The biggest enemy of movies/TV/music is people not caring about it. The value of something is entirely subjective, and not dependent on the costs of production.

On the matter of production of these things absent IP I cannot tell you precisely how that would work in every case, but I do think it's possible where you may see consumers making pledges to see things that they would like made through services similar to thepoint.com. That website has a setup where you can commit to invest in something once certain conditions are met like a certain number of people or a certain dollar amount or other event.

Not with movies/TV but with drugs the large costs are partly due to government controls and testing requirements. The FDA imposes extremely long terms of testing and disallows individuals from making choices regarding what testing they think is necessary. I also do think that branding works as Bayer still is able to get a premium for aspirin and if people know those companies that are making things they like or may need they will support them.

Despite the fact I'm no fan of IP and I really dislike DRM I still buy Funi DVDs and Bluray (although both DRM systems are thoroughly cracked).

I can very much understand the firms perspective, and funimation is much smaller than most people realize, how they are effected when their show is massively popular, they aren't seeing the returns they corresponding to their popularity because people are watching it illegally for free.

They shouldn't judge popularity based on download amounts. There is absolutely no way to reasonably equate potential purchases with downloads. Downloads are incredibly low commitment.

It would be appropriate I think for them to try and figure out why people might not even want their free streams over alternatives. Other people say that it's "excuses" to point to higher quality or convenience but that is an attempt to declare what the values of others should be. The problem is value is innately subjective and no one can determine value for another.

[Vexx]

Originally Posted by synaesthetic

Just wanted to mention:

In the case of Magical Girl Lyrical Nanoha, I downloaded the DGz fansubs ages ago and enjoyed them. Kept them. When the DVDs came out after Geneon USA's financial crisis ended in giving up most of their portfolio to Funi, I bought the DVDs...

... because they offered an advantage over the fansubs. They were 16:9 widescreen, not cropped 4:3.

Now trying to figure out how to use my .ass subs ripped from my fansubs, on the DVD 16:9 video stream... the timing is all whacked.

That's my ongoing debate point. I buy all of what I buy (from Funi and others) because I was able to see the series broadcast via fansub. If I could be assured that all broadcast series were going to be streamed and then all their R2 DVD versions were to be offered as R1 DVDs... well, the function of fansubs would vanish for me. However.... much of what I like - Funi and others fail to migrate over to my shore. So I can't depend on them to stream everything, nor can I depend on them offering DVDs of the series they stream. Hell, I can't even depend on the distribution industry to FINISH a series in anime or manga.

So lets just say "two way street issues going on"...

[DragoZERO]

Originally Posted by Vexx

That's my ongoing debate point. I buy all of what I buy (from Funi and others) because I was able to see the series broadcast via fansub. If I could be assured that all broadcast series were going to be streamed and then all their R2 DVD versions were to be offered as R1 DVDs... well, the function of fansubs would vanish for me. However.... much of what I like - Funi and others fail to migrate over to my shore. So I can't depend on them to stream everything, nor can I depend on them offering DVDs of the series they stream. Hell, I can't even depend on them to FINISH a series in anime or manga.

So lets just say "two way street issues going on"...

Yes. I wasn't sure if Funi was going to release Requeim for the Phantom. It took them forever to even announce it was coming out. Then we get a lame bullet necklace as a bonus. So useless.

I'd watch the streams if it was in better quality. 360p just does not cut it. Not to mention I can't watch it on my TV.

[Blanchimont]

Little background on this I came upon that hasn't been mentioned in this thread yet... Seems it all ties back to a one-man pirate hunter army in Texas by the name of Evan Stone. ...And I don't kid the one-man army part; (quotes from the Ars Technica article)

From his office in Denton, Texas, Stone needed only six months to make himself the main file-sharing lawyer in the state. On July 17, 2010, he sued 65 anonymous P2P users trafficking in gay porn. In August, he sued 113. In September, Stone went after 670. October brought a case against 1,106; then, two weeks later, the same porn studio went against another 2,619. Stone has singlehandedly filed almost every such case in Texas.

He finally enticed even Funimation to try his services, that's where this story ties in;

Last month, his work in porn paid off, as FUNimation consented to try a single case against the file-swappers to see what would happen. Stone's investigator trolled sites like isohunt.com, kickasstorrents.com, and nyaatorrents.org to grab the 1,337 IP addresses used in the case, and he made sure that every user being sued was sharing the One Piece episode with a hash of "b305c19f8e8bdab5e39b33a4ffc364a12beb110b."

There's a few other interesting tidbits in that Ars Technica article to note:

Thought it was Funimation who trolled with 1337? Think again;

The number 1,337 spells "leet" if you squint at it the right way, and Stone chose this little bit of leet-speak as "my nod to the hacker community. I know who you guys are."

Reading the article also reveals this guy Stone shares a past history with Funimation, and there's a very interesting piece of info to be found in that same bit, not of Stone but Funimation. To be specific, about Funimation's past (and perhaps current?) practices vs p2p et all...