2012-01-23, 13:56 | Link #27261 | |
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2012-01-23, 13:59 | Link #27262 | |||||
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What we saw could have been just a show they put on for Battler, to get an interesting reaction out of him. But unfortunately, this theory is impossible from the start. And the reason is because there is a Red in EP5 which confirms Kanon's presence on the game board. Quote:
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And I agree, this theory isn't very satisfying at all. Quote:
But as far as Piece!Battler's narration goes, that's fair game. After all, he's just a Piece being controlled. ...Though technically, since Bern was supposed to be in control of Piece!Battler's narration at that point, doesn't that mean she knew about ShKanon and was hiding it? And that opens up a huge can of worms. All in all, I think I'm now going to have to revert back to using the "Kanon had a body" theory. |
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2012-01-23, 15:12 | Link #27263 |
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The problem is more that I don't think we generally see deceptive first-person narration very often, even in fantasy scenes. So while it's fair game for Battler's piece to tell a lie, there's usually a reason behind it. Our Confessions gives people some kind of reason to lie; Beatrice tells them to as part of a game. Unless a game has already begun at this point (remember, this is like midday on the 4th), and Battler has already been recruited to it, he doesn't have any coherent reason to pretend he saw Kanon and Shannon as distinct entities.
It's one thing to show a scene where Rosa runs away from a demon and then tells Battler that she just ran from a demon (she could just be lying about the prior scene), and another to have Rosa narrate in her own words the experience of running from a demon that didn't ever actually happen, in a situation where Rosa has no reason whatsoever to experience such a thing or pretend she's doing so. It's a very different kind of lie. There's "fantasy scene backed up by a lie," and then there's "this character is just lying to no one for no reason." Battler's narration is an example of the latter. He's not telling anyone any information, except the player. If Lambda has directed the piece to deliberately lie to essentially himself (this is an internal narration, remember, so it's basically what Battler appears to be thinking, not saying), she's seriously stretching the bounds of good storytelling if not outright breaking them. And... for what, exactly? To convince Bern and Erika of something they didn't even doubt in the first place?
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2012-01-23, 15:43 | Link #27264 |
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I'd like to draw attention to the final chapter of EP6, where Beatrice and Erika duel over the Logic Error. In this scene, when trying to figure out where Kanon could be hiding in the room, Erika realizes that he can be both under the bed and in the closet simultaneously. Because of the possibility that whenever she takes time to check any one, he could slip into another part of the room, the Fantasy side can posit him in any of the above places. She emphasizes how this is a ridiculous argument 'in real life', but in the Witches game it is a magnificent and elegant board setup. A key point here for me is that in this meta-game, things can be advanced as long as they are based on some sort of real-world possibilitiy.
So for this parlor scene, if we must know the 'trick' then it probably is something like being able to switch between Shannon and Kanon, alongside bribing people to go along with it. Yes, it's not a very likely scenario in real life, but it certainly is possible. And thus it's an avaliable move in the game. But this is not to say that Erika couldn't have figured it out, by making a thorough examination of everyone in the room. But I'd chalk this up to her arrogance and full reliance on the Detective abilities. Since she used her abilities to gather everyone in the room, she already knows everyone must be there without having to check, so she doesn't. And I still think that this is something that Beatrice could do, but wouldn't. I'd say that Beatrice probably went out of her way to keep things 'real-world' fair, and didn't do things that would be possible but unrealistic in real life. And really the whole Shkanon thing is pretty much a basic premise of the entire Gameboard. She wanted Battler to figure it out, not expose herself and show it to him as Fantasy 'just because she can'. There is no reason for her to do that. Though for Lambda, who said she was gonna be giving 'super special' hints in her game, understands Beatrice, and chooses to stay neutral, it does make sense for her to do this. And for the record, I still think the EP5 game invitation must be talking about this scene. What else could it possibly be talking about? EDIT for added thoughts: I imagine that this leaves it as: Erika didn't actually see Shannon/Kanon through her piece. But if she goes back and checks the game records, they would be there.
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Last edited by Keriaku; 2012-01-23 at 16:05. |
2012-01-23, 16:01 | Link #27265 | |
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2012-01-23, 16:05 | Link #27266 |
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I think there are several differences there.
First, we know that there is an "intended scenario." Thus, at least some aspect of any setup necessitates knowing what you're planning to do ahead of time to some extent. Our Confessions backs this up, as does the idea that Battler was "planning" his game in ep6. If nothing else, his First Twilight plan was probably predetermined. The situation that the Logic Error ended up in is a bit different. First of all, obviously, Battler didn't plan the solution Beatrice used (or at least, didn't use it himself). The Kanon-based solution was a highly theoretical one Beatrice was using in what amounts to a very different game. Erika was restricted in her claims, for example; in reality, if Erika could check one part of the room, odds are she could check all of them and eventually locate Kanon, or wait them out, etc. She couldn't because of the nature of the confrontation, but those "rules" were kind of being made up on the fly. It's part of what makes the final throwdown in ep6 somewhat hollow if you actually go back and read it critically. Beatrice and Erika are sort of fighting arbitrarily, Beatrice advances a clever idea, Erika basically gives up. It basically all happens on Lambda's whim anyway. The parlor situation is entirely different. First of all, it's not being "played" over, because as far as anyone knows nothing is being presented that needs to be discussed. Second, even if we accept some solution along the lines of "Kanon/Shannon were switching off, giving Erika the mistaken impression both were in the room when she never observed both at once," it doesn't comply with the actual narrative we're given. It's one thing to fool the detective, but this solution is one we're only reaching because we're trying to explain away a presentation of the scene that deliberately tries to fool us. And all the while, we're left to explain away Battler's completely misleading internal monologue as "he was lying, because the GM can make his piece lie." You know, to himself. In his own thoughts. For absolutely no reason. Is Battler's piece now aware that there is an audience and deliberately mis-thinking things to fool some omniscient observer? It's not like later in the episode when he alleges his mistakes could be embellished. Battler is flat-out lying in this case, or else Kanon/Shannon is the fastest quick-change artist in costuming history. I don't see how this can be casually dismissed by anyone with "Oh Battler's perspective is unreliable." Unreliable yes, but he has no reason to lie to himself. His piece is basically thinking thoughts that only make sense if he's deliberately trying to mislead the higher-level entities through meta-knowledge. And even stickier... isn't Bern the one using his piece in ep5? How exactly can she make use of a piece that somehow knows she's watching and can blatantly lie to her?Again, this cannot explain why Battler is lying to himself, in his own mind, where no one is (to his knowledge) listening. And if he is using meta-knowledge, what else is he making use of for it in ep5? Does Erika know it's happening?
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2012-01-23, 16:13 | Link #27267 |
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Well this now becomes a matter of perspective on all of Umineko. To me, what we see on the gameboards is what happens to the pieces. When people are running for their lives from the goats or the stakes, they are actually doing that and they are scared for their lives. It's no different here with Battler. The trick, the truth, this whole mystery versus fantasy mechanics, all only matter from the Meta perspective. To the general piece, that is reality. I'd say the detective is the only one that's special, because it must be linked with a Meta-perspective.
But still, I think regardless, where we are now with the scene is much better then where it was left a month or two ago.
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2012-01-23, 16:18 | Link #27268 | ||
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Now I suppose you can argue "Well so what? Just as I can declare that nobody really fought demons, I can declare that Bob didn't really think what he thought." The problem with this in respect to ep5 is it turns the parlor scene from one in which we have limited and unreliable narration to one where we don't have any narration, because Piece-Battler's thoughts have been ripped out and replaced with deliberate meta-gaming lies. That would be fine if we had any other perspective on the scene, such as the one Erika ought to have had. But apparently Erika's perspective has never actually mattered to anyone in the Meta-World, because not only do we never see it, nobody acts like it exists to begin with. That is not something we can really reconcile. Quote:
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2012-01-23, 16:32 | Link #27269 |
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We might just be talking past each other at this point, but I'll see if I can explain myself. I don't fully remember where and how much we've seen things from first-person perspectives throughout the series, but it has happened before, so this is worth adressing.
There is no one 'lying with their thoughts'. If what we see on the gameboard is reality for them, that is what is actually happening and that is what they are actually thinking. If what they are thinking about is 'Fantasy', it's of no consequence to the Piece. It is the Gamemaster who has crafted their reality in that form and enabled that situation. The Gamemaster is the one who has the burden of proof for making sure the logic holds, that the Fantasy and Mystery coincide, the pieces do not. So I don't find your arguments about Battler's thoughts a problem here. And isn't this whole idea basically what happens to George and Jessica in the Love Duel? Jessica talks about how she isn't happy with having to kill her relatives, et cetera, but if she changes her perspective to a Meta one and looks at it like a gameboard, then she can be okay with it. That's the difference between a Piece and a Meta-Piece.
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2012-01-23, 16:57 | Link #27270 | |||
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In previous games, she made it clear that she wants the games to continue on, endlessly. If it ever looks like Beatrice or Battler is going to win, she'll step in, and prevent that from happening. At some point after Beatrice gave up at the end of EP4... If I remember right, she made a statement that she had thought up another way to have the game continue on endlessly. This led me to believe that EP5 was her gambit to remove the obstacles that stood in the way of her goal. However, it seems pretty obvious that, should Battler manage to reach the Truth, it will mean that he wins the game. Therefore, Lambda should be acting to prevent this. On the contrary, she seems to imply in the EP5 Tea Party that this outcome is something she had planned (it's just that it happened sooner than she expected). Furthermore, there's the fact that, as I had already explained, Lambda appeared to be ready to forfeit the game of EP5 to Bern when Battler arrived, even though she could have easily ripped through these Natsuhi theories. At a glance, it seems like she made the whole game for the purpose of helping Battler reach the truth, but to be honest, I have no idea. This is further complicated by the fact that Bernkastel is supposed to be the one controlling Piece!Battler at the moment. But most importantly, since I couldn't figure out where to even start in figuring out Lambda's motivations, I had decided to put that on hold, and instead concentrate on what I could more easily reason out. One thing that we have completely different interpretations of, though, is Piece!Battler's perspective. I'd like to say that he is not necessarily lying to himself, in his own mind. The fact is that, in EP5, Battler's Piece isn't even at Detective status, so he can theoretically be deceived with any illusion the GM comes up with. Therefore, Bernkastel could be having him look around the room and make observations, but Lambdadelta is showing him a scene where both Shannon and Kanon are there at the same time, even though that's not the truth. Quote:
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Or did she do all of this just to confuse him further? |
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2012-01-23, 17:05 | Link #27271 | |||
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2012-01-23, 17:15 | Link #27273 | ||
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However, this does not mean that showing illusions to non-Detective Pieces is forbidden. Quote:
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2012-01-23, 17:35 | Link #27274 | |
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2012-01-23, 17:42 | Link #27275 |
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IIRC, Battler was told that his flat out denials similar to the one you portrayed were better than his earlier flounderings, but ultimately ask they do is put the game into a stalemate. Like someone refusing to even make a move.
So it wasn't really a win. Edit: Sorry, posting from a phone so I can't comment much. 8) Last edited by Kylon99; 2012-01-23 at 17:56. |
2012-01-23, 17:44 | Link #27276 |
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But the fantasy still basically disappears. He's not making any positive ground, but by engaging in his capacity for denial he basically nullified the existence of that scene. Granted, Beatrice "cleaned it up" as usual too, but it was portrayed less as "Yeah but you can't prove it didn't" and more as "Maybe so, but don't think you're going to win the game just denying everything."
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2012-01-23, 17:48 | Link #27277 | |
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Think about it this way. Natsuhi is sitting on a bench. She is talking to her friend Beatrice. However, from the Mystery side of things, Witches do not exist. Therefore, we reason that either: 1. She is insane and consequently believes she is talking to a Witch. 2. She is just pretending, in order to cope with the trauma of Kinzo's death and the subsequent near loss of all of the family's honor. I believe that neither of these is true. On the Mystery side, what we have is just Natsuhi, sitting alone on a bench. She is not pretending to have a conversation with anyone. But on the Fantasy side, she is chatting with the Witch. On both sides of the story, she is certainly trying to cope with the trauma of recent family troubles. This is the important thing. Even if you are shown a blatant falsehood, it is not inherently a waste of time. Even so, if you figure out what is happening on the Mystery side, the Fantasy will disappear. |
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2012-01-23, 18:19 | Link #27278 | ||
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2012-01-23, 18:25 | Link #27279 |
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Its right after Maria throws the rifle back to Rosa. The narrator mentions that she grabbed it and then suddenly it changes to Rosa's perspective. She thinks to herself
"However, at the same time , I saw the goat head pursuers on the other side of the rose bushes increase in number. I've gain enough distance for now! I held onto the blanket wrapped around the ingot and the gun, and once again ran with Maria." "...Why am I running with a gun in my right hand and the gold on my left? Why don't I let go with one hand grasp Maria's hand..?!! "I cant let go of the gun that protects my body. I cant let go of the gold that protects my future. But even so, I let go of the hand of my daughter, the person who is my future...?!! Run. Run. Run. It switches back to the omniscient narrator then. Last edited by Cao Ni Ma; 2012-01-23 at 18:40. |
2012-01-23, 19:42 | Link #27280 | ||||||
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And this brings us back to the same fundamental problem with Kealym's theory: Why were Lambda and Bern so cryptic and roundabout in showing the number of people on the island to be 18 when they didn't have to be (according to you, they could just out and say there are 18 people)? Why go out of their way to make extra room for Erika to suspect that the number is not 18? Quote:
But if you really want to dodge the Red, there are still two ways you can do it that I can think of. First, Erika is not a "person X"; she's not some mysterious factor working behind the scenes since Furudo Erika had no influence on any of Beato's games before now. Or, second, you simply say that This applies to all games!!! only means games up to that point. Quote:
Poor Kanon. Quote:
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Again Bern said later... Of all the people in the dining hall, not one of them left the dining hall until 1:00 AM...! Beatrice complained that Erika did not observe it (which she didn't; she was in the guest house), but Bern responded: The red truth is simply truth, and there is no need to provide evidence, proof, or room for a counter-argument!! And it happened yet again: When Genji finished transferring the call, he immediately returned to the waiting room. Erika did not observe this either. So, hmm? Did Bern just assume right? Or did she know these things without Erika observing them? Or is she just making shit up and Lambda is letting her do it? Quote:
Actually, I checked the scene again. It's kind of obvious that it wasn't Kinzo who showed Battler the way; he already knew it. Battler didn't solve the epitaph; he already knew all about it and just pretended to solve it. 8) So anyway the question is not if Battler narrates lies in EP5, but how and why. And obviously the how and why have to be explained in meta terms since, as you say, people don't lie to themselves in their minds. The "how" I think has to do with the concept of the "Reader", the "why" I think has to do with fooling Erika and putting Battler on the right track. Lambda, and even Bern, might not actually be on Erika's side or be Battler's enemy, at least in EP5. |
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