Kanon 2006 (Generic Discussion)

[Mirificus]

Originally Posted by Skane

Now I'm left wondering what the Kleenex were used for...

*badum-badum bing!*

Narf!

You're terrible for posting that. I'm terrible for having considered posting that

[arkxkra]

if i want to post some window xp theme software where i should post? or i cant post here??

[~ Lawliet ~]

An absolutely amazing anime. Great story and characters followed by great art and sound.

[blitz1/2]

I plan to write a Kanon fanfiction about what may happen after the events of Kanon. But I haven't decided which girl Yuuichi starts out with or end with.

(it may differ a bit from the anime where he ended up with just Ayu)

Look forward to it next week. Any ideas are welcome, (just PM me)

[Setsukyie]

Originally Posted by blitz1/2

I plan to write a Kanon fanfiction about what may happen after the events of Kanon. But I haven't decided which girl Yuuichi starts out with or end with.

(it may differ a bit from the anime where he ended up with just Ayu)

Look forward to it next week. Any ideas are welcome, (just PM me)

Looking forward to it..

I wonder if you can write something about Makoto...
yea, a bit hard..right...

good luck then~

[ireact]

Hi, everyone! I'm new here. I have some Kanon thoughts, praises, frustrations and musings. And apologies for originally posting this in the 2002 thread.

I've never played a dating sim/visual novel, but there is a scene in the anime "Welcome to the NHK!" where a game designer explains the appeal of these stories. It's mainly that they feature women who are attracted to the male protagonist for no apparent reason, who approach the boy lead with pure intentions, and give off the impression that the entire lives of these female characters revolve around romantically obssessing over the male lead and performing flattering gestures towards him. Basically, entertainment for emotionally arrested boys who can't handle the thought of dealing with women who have their own needs, hopes, insecurities, issues and existences beyond devotion to the boyfriend.

Good Impression
With that in mind, "Kanon" didn't strike me as anything but an object of mockery when my weekly anime group put it on the big screen. However, I was intrigued with the first two episodes. The animation was striking; the character designs were sharp-lined yet softly designed, the colours were splendidly rich, and I really liked Yuiichi. Admittedly, the voice actor played Kyon, so that might have been residual affection, but what I liked best about him was that he behaved like a real person. Confronted with Ayu's bizarre antics and neediness, Yuiichi was exasperated and critical, and also displayed an admirable nature as he made her pay for her stolen baked goods. He had a terrific sense of sarcastic humour when facing off with Kitagawa. While he was surrounded by characters I would generally find sickeningly 'cute', Yuiichi's reactions were believable and likable; he wasn't going to stand for Makoto's practical jokes and could stand up for himself. He wasn't going to let Ayu's hysterics control him. He had a mischevious sense of humour in taking Ayu to see horror movies. And when Makoto dropped the cat off the bridge, Yuiichi's outrage and disgust really made me respect the character. He enjoyed the companionship of the girls, but he wasn't the stammering, unassertive character I'd always thought dating sim leads would be. Admittedly, Makoto, Ayu, Nayuki and Shiori were all very fanciful characters; relentlessly cheerful, hyperactive adolescent girls, but Yuiichi's sardonic humour and biting wit matched with his thoughtfulness and honour balanced out the series.

I really liked the first ten episodes best. I was intrigued by Yuiichi's apparent memory losses, the flashbacks that he apparently didn't remember, the mystery of why he couldn't remember his past with these girls and how it related to the present. But I was dreading what I thought would be inevitable in this sort of story; the female characters fawning all over Yuiichi, being helpless and needy, revealing their backstories where Yuiichi is the only person worth dealing with in the whole of their lives. The sort of flattering fantasies adolescent boys dream up before learning to see women as human beings.

That Girl's a Fox!
However, the Makoto arc was handled so charmingly, disarmingly and somewhat misdirectingly that I was completely won over. I loved the battle of pranks between Yuiichi and Makoto, and the way his regard from her went from irritation to concern really took us through Yuiichi's depths. And as Makoto became the needy, feeble female figure whom the boy gets to take care of and comfort, I found that the show also managed to render this in a sensitive manner. The revelation of who Makoto is and where she comes from is rather pathetic. Giving up one's life and one's memory for a few short moments (weeks?) with a boy? It's such a lonely, desperate, sad gesture, and Yuiichi isn't moved or flattered by it; he's repulsed. He doesn't see Makoto as a more appealing person for it. She's a fox-cub who sacrificed her life for empty, pointless sentiment. But Yuiichi, rather than condemning her for it, takes pity on her. He spends whatever time he can with Makoto, engaged in activities he doesn't actually care for (like reading romance manga). When she starts to recall her past life, he *screams* at her not to, desperate to let Makoto keep what she gave her life for -- a human existence -- even if she won't have it for very long. The relationship between the two is more sibling fondness than romantic, and when Makoto expresses the desire to marry Yuiichi, it's not a moment of romantic tension as much as it is an expression of all the life and experience that Makoto will never live to have. I was stunned by how this anime series tackled the task of rendering the fixtures of this genre, but rendered them in a way that showed them for their tragedy, their horror and yet a fragile beauty within. There's a bitter irony in that Yuiichi's kindness proves Makoto's longings were for a decent person, but it really wasn't worth it. And what I liked best was that these episodes ultimately express that making your entire life revolve around expressing flattering sentiments to one particular individual is a pitiful and unfortunate act.

This seems repetitive...
The Mai arc hits similar notes, revealing that Mai's demons are the result of her long-held wish that Yuiichi had stayed with her. Again, the desire to make one's life revolve around one person isn't the fluffy, flattering nonsense some animes would say it is. Instead, it conjures up monstrosities that can only be defeated through awareness of what they are. However, the Mai-arc made me *really* nervous; this was the second girl who'd lived a life where the only person she valued was Yuiichi. This repetition suggested the disturbing idea that the series really was, after all, going to be basically about how women obsess over Yuiichi.

And damn and blast, that was basically the Shiori-arc, which I felt really torpedoed and burned almost every ounce of goodwill the series had built up with me. I thought Shiori was an appalling character. She's ridiculous, even if one sets aside the series' bizarre assertion that while she's energetic and cheery now, she's very ill and will drop dead after her birthday. The revelation that Shiori shows up at school because she has a fantasy of living out mundane events with a sister who considers Shiori dead to her was laughable. The fact that Shiori values this cruel sister's approval makes Shiori rather pathetic, and not in the tragic sense that Makoto achieved. Worse, however, is Shiori's behaviour with Yuiichi. Ordering food she didn't care for because she was determined to eat whatever Yuiichi ate? Rather than being sweet, that speaks more to Shiori's lack of any personality over her own. And the idea that Shiori's thoughts of Yuiichi kept her from cutting or commiting suicide is incredibly condescending and marginalizes what is a very serious psychological situation in real-life. I felt betrayed by the Shiori-arc -- "Kanon" had basically done the dating sim cliches after all; serving up a girl who exists only to fawn all over a boy protagonist, and calling this a healthy or admirable relationship.

Although considering what followed...
Then came Ayu. Dear God. Yuiichi's relationship had been more condescending older brother to an undisciplined sibling than anything else. The sudden switch to romantic entanglement was incredibly unconvincing. Possibly the worst scene in this arc was where Yuiichi said he didn't want Ayu to see him as his first love because first relationships never work out. This only highlighted how their previous interactions had been more fondly antagonistic than romantic. Seing Yuiichi blush and fret over Ayu when he'd once been a likably sardonic character was a horrific degredation of his character. And also, I realize the series insists that Yuiichi and Ayu are the same age, but Ayu is characterized with such immaturity and drawn to look so much younger than Yuiichi that seeing them make out felt vaguely illegal and tremendously unsettling.

The show regained some of its original stature with the (re)appearance of Makoto. It was nice to know that something of her survived and lived on in *some* form. I know it wasn't the Makoto we saw in earlier episodes, but it brought a measure of comfort to the tragic end of Makoto's story. However, the ending of the series is founded firmly on the idea that Yuiichi and Ayu have some sort of layered, depth-filled romance that is in no way the relationship that was actually onscreen. And the explanations for Yuiichi's amnesia and Ayu's presence throughout the series given where she 'really' was the whole time were... vague, unsatisfying, confusing, uninformative and I basically got lost. The series ends happily, but I couldn't understand at all how everyone turned out so happily. And ultimately, at the end, I found that Yuiichi no longer *reacted* like the sarcastic, sharp, kind and *believable* character he'd been at the beginning of the series. His reactions to the (return?) of Makoto and the apparent nature of Ayu are incredibly muted. He doesn't really seem to find it that odd that he spent so much time hanging out with a person who'd apparently been lying comatose all that time; he barely acknowledges the impossibility of it. He seems rather unmoved by the (inexplicable) happy endings everyone seems to get in the last episode.

... I really liked the first ten episodes of this series, but then I got alarmed, and then appalled and then confused and lost and baffled. I admired the artistic direction of the series, and found the animation beautiful, and there are a good number of episodes that are quite wonderful. However, as a whole, I find myself seeing the series as a valiant but failed effort at... something or other.

Was playing the game a necessity for understanding what the hell I was watching at the end of the series?

- Ibrahim Ng

[Jiggy]

Originally Posted by ireact

I've never played a dating sim/visual novel, but there is a scene in the anime "Welcome to the NHK!" where a game designer explains the appeal of these stories. It's mainly that they feature women who are attracted to the male protagonist for no apparent reason, who approach the boy lead with pure intentions, and give off the impression that the entire lives of these female characters revolve around romantically obssessing over the male lead and performing flattering gestures towards him. Basically, entertainment for emotionally arrested boys who can't handle the thought of dealing with women who have their own needs, hopes, insecurities, issues and existences beyond devotion to the boyfriend.

Well... Hearing this just may have prematurely killed Kanon for you, since your post reads to me like you held these expectations going in and looked for details that might confirm you were right. If you think Kanon is proof of this concept, or any Key production for that matter, then you may want to watch another visual novel or dating sim anime for some perspective. :P There are certainly shallow and dependent females to be found, but I wouldn't say they're here.



Anyway, uh... hmm. I'm not sure how much of this discussion would be considered spoilery, so I'll play safe and spoiler it all. >_> Plus I have a lot to say, so it'll look unwieldy and huge and all that. <_< Anyway, away we go!

Spoiler:

However, the Mai-arc made me *really* nervous; this was the second girl who'd lived a life where the only person she valued was Yuiichi.

That's not true, though. Of the five main girls, Mai is the only one other than Nayuki who has a friend before she meets Yuuichi. She reacts with horror when Sayuri is hurt, and her thought that she's brought harm to Sayuri and Yuuichi through her action drives her to attempted suicide.

Even beside that, I don't see how it can be said that she valued Yuuichi to the extent you're suggesting. She doesn't pursue him in any way after her arc is over, nor does she ever pursue him in any way during her arc; she initially doesn't want his help fighting demons and thinks he'll only get in her way way. The only reason they even keep contact is that he approaches her every day and night--so Mai is at least quite a bit different from Makoto or Ayu, who generally go after him on their own time.

Furthermore, there's still Mai's mother to consider. You just might say that she's an important and valued figure.

Now, I'll grant that younger Mai only wanted Yuuichi, but there are a few points I'd bring up about that. One is that she was a little kid and kids can be more clingy than high school students--or at least more trusting. By the time of Kanon's present-day, she doesn't even remember why she's fighting demons. Also, don't forget that she was an outcast because of her powers. Yuuichi wasn't so much "a boy" to her as he was a friend, which is what she was looking for at that age. I don't think the idea that a ten-year-old girl needs at least one friend should be considered "flattering fantasies" of "emotionally arrested boys," as you might put it. Actually, I would say that the need for a friend is more like a reality for females and males alike, of all ages, and has very little to do with the gender of that friend.

[Shiori is] ridiculous, even if one sets aside the series' bizarre assertion that while she's energetic and cheery now, she's very ill and will drop dead after her birthday. The revelation that Shiori shows up at school because she has a fantasy of living out mundane events with a sister who considers Shiori dead to her was laughable.

...? I think it's laughable only if you set aside that assertion, and I'm not sure why you would since it's such a fundamental basis for her story. To a dying person, even a "normal" life looks attractive.

The fact that Shiori values this cruel sister's approval makes Shiori rather pathetic, and not in the tragic sense that Makoto achieved.

Unless I missed it, there's nothing to say that Kaori and Shiori never had a good relationship during the years before they learned Shiori would die, much less that Kaori is a "cruel" sister. >_> She might be cold and distant, although even that's a recent development, but not cruel.

Worse, however, is Shiori's behaviour with Yuiichi. Ordering food she didn't care for because she was determined to eat whatever Yuiichi ate? Rather than being sweet, that speaks more to Shiori's lack of any personality over her own.

Again, it just seems to me like you're trying to read in some disturbing undercurrent where there isn't one. I watched that scene and only assumed it was supposed to be cute and drive home no point other than that Shiori can't take spicy food. I mean, that's my usual inclination for nearly any show, incidentally: to sit back, enjoy, and assume there's very little intentional subliminal or symbolic depth at work.

But if you'd like me to apply analysis, I could go that route too... Shiori's arc revolves around her putting on a brave face and trying to enjoy life like a normal person, ignoring that she's terminally ill. If it's truly the case that she'd essentially like to be anyone other than herself--namely, someone who's dying and deals with that thought every day--then one natural way to get closer to that would be to imitate others. "I can be different if I just try"--something like that might have been her mindset at the time. A test of willpower against reality, which just might more or less summarize her life since learning of her condition: the quesion of whether she can will herself to survive despite it all has to be hanging over her head.

And the idea that Shiori's thoughts of Yuiichi kept her from cutting or commiting suicide is incredibly condescending and marginalizes what is a very serious psychological situation in real-life.

As with Mai, I think you've oversimplified.

Shiori ran into Yuuichi and Ayu, with the keyword there not being a name, but actually the word "and." She encountered two people who got along with one another, which she hadn't seen, much less lived, for however many months since (what would have been) her school year began, and probably thought she might never see again. With her sister growing distant and her separation from those who would have been her classmates, she may have needed to see somebody who still knew happiness and friendship, almost as a symbolic example of hope to her. Even more than that, both Yuuichi and Ayu treated her in a friendly way that, again, she hadn't had from her peers for a number of months. And, better still, they openly needed her help since they were lost, which may have proved that she was still important in some way--however "small."

I felt betrayed by the Shiori-arc -- "Kanon" had basically done the dating sim cliches after all; serving up a girl who exists only to fawn all over a boy protagonist, and calling this a healthy or admirable relationship.

...But as you were just implying, that's not what her arc was about. She wanted to be with Kaori, and Yuuichi explicitly realizes at one point that--in contrast to fighting demons or finding a lost object--bringing the two sisters together was the only thing he could do for Shiori. It wasn't about him at all, although he did serve as a catalyst of sorts.

However, the ending of the series is founded firmly on the idea that Yuiichi and Ayu have some sort of layered, depth-filled romance that is in no way the relationship that was actually onscreen.

Where are you getting that? o_O They never act in a way that suggested a deep romance to me... The farthest they get is Ayu kissing him once and then the two of them struggling to dare go so far as hold hands after that, which to me sounds 1) right on par with their age, and 2) perfectly in line with a relationship that's barely even begun.

And the explanations for Yuiichi's amnesia and Ayu's presence throughout the series given where she 'really' was the whole time were... vague, unsatisfying, confusing, uninformative and I basically got lost. The series ends happily, but I couldn't understand at all how everyone turned out so happily. And ultimately, at the end, I found that Yuiichi no longer *reacted* like the sarcastic, sharp, kind and *believable* character he'd been at the beginning of the series. His reactions to the (return?) of Makoto and the apparent nature of Ayu are incredibly muted. He doesn't really seem to find it that odd that he spent so much time hanging out with a person who'd apparently been lying comatose all that time; he barely acknowledges the impossibility of it.

Well, there are two things I'd say here... The first is that if you're looking for believability--a possibility I'm only considering since you've said twice that you liked that aspect about Yuuichi--then I can see how you might have been disappointed with Kanon. I don't think its aim was ever to be "believable," what with a fox who takes human form, a girl who has healing powers and manifests demons from her imagination, miracle cures, and a psychic projection of a girl in a coma. After some of those things, I wouldn't fret too much over the "impossibility" of Ayu's real situation either.

But, to my second point now, I still think that I would call Yuuichi's change believable (if I cared enough about believability to talk about it in any context other than someone else bringing it up first, anyway >_>). His earlier sarcastic nature--which I hated, personally, but that's probably immaterial here <_<--had never helped anyone when it counted most. For Makoto he had to bring out a soft side; for Mai he had to bring out a serious side; for Shiori he was unable to do anything on his own, and same for Nayuki.

I would say that Kanon actually runs almost opposite to your interpretation, which is (if I'm reading correctly) that progressively more girls who are dependent on Yuuichi show up. I think that Yuuichi's relevance diminishes with time until the ending. Here's what I saw:

Makoto arc - Yuuichi is everything. Makoto's concern for anyone else is negligible, although she can get along with Nayuki and Akiko well enough--and Ayu to a lesser extent.
Mai arc - Yuuichi is an important friend to Mai, but Sayuri equally if not more so. Her mother is also a relevant figure.
Shiori arc - Yuuichi is an interesting person, but reconciliation with or acknowledgement from Kaori is Shiori's end goal.
Nayuki arc - Yuuichi was a crush long ago, but Nayuki's lived her full life with only her mother and values her very much. She also realizes that Yuuichi only has eyes for Ayu, but seems to be getting by just fine despite this.
Ayu - Yuuichi is everything, though Ayu also has an instantly synergetic relationship with Nayuki.

(I might note that Makoto and Ayu both have extreme circumstances which mean they're not as needy as you seem to think... Makoto--well, she's a fox, so of course she wouldn't have anyone else for human companionship. And Ayu has been in a coma for seven years. Her grade school friends have probably forgotten her, and she'll probably be playing educational catch-up for quite a while after the "end" of the series, so she won't have an opportunity to make many friends her own age. It's understandable that for her, Yuuichi would be it.)

In any case, Yuuichi was noting his helplessness all along, which is why he broke down in front of (the real) Makoto. I would say that there's good reason he softened considerably as Kanon progressed: his emotional barriers weren't doing any good for anybody, and he recognized it.


All that said, I do think they could have stood to make Kanon 26 episodes. The ending was rushed compared to the pacing for the rest of the show and didn't cover or explan everything in as much detail as it should have. I still cried, mind you--three separate times (;_; )--but yeah, that much could have been better handled.

[ireact]

"Welcome to the NHK" also has a delightful scene where the dating sim designers Sato and Yamazaki try to come up with a dating sim girl.

Sato and Yamazaki conceive of a girl who is a childhood friend, a classmate, a neighbour, a maid, a ghost, an alien, and a reincarnation of a fox from the future, and is also a robot. They consider that the girl must also be feeble and weak and in need of the protagonist's tender care because she injured herself protecting him and will take years to recover. They proceed to whip up a sketch, and the result is a hilariously hideous character design.

"Kanon" only lacks a robot. Eventually, Yamazaki and Sato are forced to contemplate the lack of inspiration, creativity, and the appalling misogyny and chauvinism of the clichés they're falling back on....

Is there any particular reason why Yuiichi is drawn in a (relatively) unexaggerated manner, while almost every female character is drawn as highly childlike, to the point where there doesn't seem to be a single female character who looks older than the age of 12?

I'm sure it can't possibly be because the designers and writers can only envision women who are overemotional, fragile creatures who fly into hysterics or burst into tears at the drop of a hat...

- Ibrahim Ng

[Noe]

Mai Kawasumi is moe.

[Exar Kun]

I've been trying to come up with a design of the Minase residence and so far I've got something like this:



This is the first floor. On the second floor we see 6 doors (4 opposite the stairs and 2 on the same side). Looking from the stirs perspective the rightmost is Yuuichi's room, next Nayuki's room, Makoto's room and finally Ayu's room. We don't see what's behind the two doors on the opposite side.

Anyone has some thoughts on this?? I'm sure it was based on a real house like the city, but I haven't found any photos of it.

[FatPianoBoy]

By Japanese standards, that house is huge...

[Littm]

Oh common, it isn't so really huge. But by their big overpopulated cities like Tokyo standarts - surely, it's more then huge.

[ZephyrLeanne]

Well, on the house size, I am NOT surprised. Why?

Kanon is set in a 雪下の北国 - Snowy north. This refers to Hokkaido. The trams give away everything - this gotta be Sapporo. And by Sapporo standards, this is small. Really. Land is dirt-cheap there. The prefectural government is giving away plots of land there to attract businesses!

Though where I live, Tokyo, this is not possible. BTW, I live near enough to the school featured in CLANNAD - and had studied in there before.

Back to main topic.
Overall, after watching Kanon, I feel that this is quite unusual for Key as this is not the usual harem setup at all. It's more like Yuuichi is the manager of a childcare! No, really. The characters all look... short. So short, Shima Katsuki of CLANNAD looks tall compared to all of them (except, obviously, Yuuichi and Kaori Misaka)

The setting is excellent too, other than the fact that it can't snow that much in Tokyo, especially the 'old city' area (which means, not the West Tokyo/Tama bedtown area). Worse still, in Osaka, it rarely snows.

Each arc was perfectly covered, except for Nayuki. Needed more semi-zombie/sleepy Darth Vader with blue hair. Oh, and how do you eat Ice-cream at temperatures of sub-zero?

[Littm]

I live near enough to the school featured in CLANNAD - and had studied in there before.

Have some photos ?

[ZephyrLeanne]

Originally Posted by Littm

Have some photos ?

Oops, I meant LIVED there before... which means I'm not there anymore. Besides, I'm not even a local there (come on, why else is my English at least passable...!?)

Anyways, the school is right smack in Tokyo, to be exact, Setagaya -
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Setagaya,_Tokyo


You'll never get houses of the size in Kanon anywhere in the yellow zone on the map - that's older/central Tokyo for you. But the green area? Anything goes!

And, no, no photos. But you can search for the school:
国立筑波大学附属駒場中学校
(Komaba High School - affiliated to Tsukuba National University)

It's right opposite Tokyo University (another university altogether).

[Littm]

ShimatheKat, thanks. Interesting info.

[Solafighter]

Originally Posted by Littm

ShimatheKat, thanks. Interesting info.

Indeed an interesting info.

[Tiran86]

Kanon 2006 is an amazing series. I'd give it a 9.5/10. I don't consider it a perfect 10, even though it currently holds the number 9 spot in my top 10 list.

[Penpa]

Is Kanon continuing past volume 6??? I don't know if someone has answered this before.

[Vegard Aune]

Originally Posted by Penpa

Is Kanon continuing past volume 6??? I don't know if someone has answered this before.

No, Kanon is 24 episodes long, and volume 6 is the last DVD. Not like they have anything more to add to the story, anyway.