[Game] Umineko - Spoilers, Theories, Interpretations

[Mali]

Originally Posted by haguruma

The first time I remember it contextually appearing was in EP2 during the Kanon/Shannon flashbacks. Kanon is walking through the garden and finds Kinzo who is crying for Beatrice to appear to him and he would give everything for that to happen, while Beatrice's spirit is hovering around him sad over the fact that Kinzo is unable to open his eyes because "without love it cannot be seen".
That was of course a major slap-in-the-face hint back then, considering that it was basically screaming, "Kinzo, I'm standing right in front of you as Kanon, but you are too blinded by sadness to recognize me!!"

Thanks! Now I have to know if this actually happened - If yes, how do Kanon know that Kinzo refered to "dress Beatrice"? Or did Sayo mistaken him?

Why would she be penalized for it?!
Yes, her truth that Eva is the culprit is a comfortable one and one that keeps her mind off the far more likely truth (that turned out true anyway), but there was never any penality in store for her for changing her basic idea of the truth.

The talk with Okonogi in EP4 actually held some very important hints.
The fact that Eva was unlikely to kill her immediate family, the general idea of the impossible to prove truth, again the highlight on "without love it cannot be seen".

I should had wrote it more clearly. SOrry! I meant if Okonogi hadn't suggested the idea that Eva was unlikely the culprit and Ange should struggle more to find the real truth (if we can believe she read the Single truth), she wouldn't hurt so much in the end.
Even if Okonogi meant it well. I would compare it to the game "Until dawn", where you can , with a specific character" choose the option "try rescueing your girlfriend" or "rescue yourself". It may unlogical at first (the game give you many hints thanks to magical predictions) but it is not obvious what choice is the right to rescue both characters.
For Ange, it might led to a worse path than believing Eva was the culprit.

Yes, sadly the VN made it seem like the message became "the truth isn't important", which understandably made some members in this forum angry as well.
The manga changed this around a bit and made it clear that the truth has value, but just exposing the truth without any moral compass or idea what it might do to other people is just as wrong as simply living in a dreamworld removed from reality. EP8 was from the very beginning suppossed to highlight that fiction has as much a value as truth, especially if they complement each other.

Yes, they do. But but makes me wonder why EP8 alternates happiness and sadness.
I don't think Tohya chose to include Bern's game with Battler's family as the canon culprits. The message to this came much later to Ange. Well it was portrayed that only Battler could make a change, that was a good sign of Ange's biological brother taking a little bit responsibility for her.
Maybe Ikuko didn't want lose her muse

[OtakuKamiSama]

Originally Posted by jjblue1

Well, the hints had to be subtle otherwise it wouldn't be a mystery.
Chiru, specifically Ep 7, hands out the whole backstory to the promise... and the manga expanded it further in Ep 8 manga version adding lots of bits... but to get it well you've to read the whole story and see all the hints.


Here it is if you want to read it!

Yes but isn't the whole game itself supposed to remind battler? I feel like I am missing something, since I only can see small hints in the dialogue. What about the murders themselves, or the moves Beatrice uses?

[jjblue1]

Originally Posted by OtakuKamiSama

Yes but isn't the whole game itself supposed to remind battler? I feel like I am missing something, since I only can see small hints in the dialogue. What about the murders themselves, or the moves Beatrice uses?

It was common belief prior to the release of Ep 8 chap 37 manga that the game was meant to cause Battler to remember the promise he and Shannon made and that he couldn't fulfil.

In Prime instead Sayo's goal was to either be stopped by Battler or commit family suicide.

After Ep 37 though we learn that in Prime, before Sayo committed suicide, Battler remembered his promise, took responsibility for Sayo's action and wanted to fulfil that promise by taking her away but then Sayo drowned herself and ended in purgatory (or the meta or whatever you want to call it) and Battler, who tried to save her, ended up there as well but he was memoryless.

Therefore my guess is that Sayo is trying to do what Battler did in Ep 6, to recreate the old Battler, the one that understood why she wanted to do all that, took responsibility for her actions, remembered his promise and wanted to take her away.

Remember how in Ep 6 Battler was told that if chick Beato were to relive those thousand years she would return on being the old Beato?

The games do not focus so much to 6 years ago Battler but to Prime Battler, to things that should reconstruct Prime Battler.
In Ep 1 the arrival of the characters on the island till the reading of the letter is likely almost exactly as it had been in Prime.
In Ep 2 Sayo adds the candy (they shared a candy Maria gave to Battler on Prime) and made a lot of reference to the love triangle inside her, of which she likely spoke to Battler in Prime as she told him she was Shannon, Kanon and Beatrice.
Ep 2 also hints that Sayo had very fond memories of Battler (she claims to remember him well).
In Ep 3 she adds facts. The gold is discovered, in a way the siblings quarreled over it (Rosa wanted to tell the others and she gets killed), Eva is the culprit as Battler speculated but, what's more important, Beatrice goes against a criminal and tries to help Jessica and George and then she'll destroy herself to help Battler against Eva... and in Prime Sayo went back to save her beloved people from Kyrie and Rudolf and managed to save Battler.
In a way there's also a reference to how, in the past, Battler seemed to favour Sayo, as she reminds him of his words, and in fact he ends up remembering she was his first love.
In Ep 4 the setting is very close to what Battler saw in Prime. The challenge from 'Kinzo' the dead bodies... and Beatrice hints at the promise by asking him to remember his sin in the place in which Ep 5 hinted the promise was made with the pinkies thing.

Beatrice in short tried to cause Battler to remember by trying to make him relive a variant of what happened in Prime.

In Ep 6 Battler too tried the same with chick Beatrice, acting cold to her, but then he switched tactic and recreated the Prime situation in which Sayo had to save him. Note how we see Beatrice giving up (same as in Prime) then she remember why she ended up loving him, talks with Kanon a little and finds her determination to run and save him.

Erika, whose backstory hinted at how she was cheated by her loved one, how now she wants to tie Battler to herself and possess him and how she was willing to murder everyone to accomplish her goal, mirrors quite well how Kyrie ended up broken due to Rudolf and killed everyone for him.

Originally Posted by Mali

Thanks! Now I have to know if this actually happened - If yes, how do Kanon know that Kinzo refered to "dress Beatrice"? Or did Sayo mistaken him?

That Kinzo we see crying is likely a ghost of the past as Kinzo should be already dead by them. The whole scene likely is made by Sayo remembering how Kinzo always cried 'Beatrice, Beatrice' but never realized she was Lion until he saw the scar on her foot which is probably pretty depressing as she'd been there for 8 years before this happened.

Originally Posted by Mali

I should had wrote it more clearly. SOrry! I meant if Okonogi hadn't suggested the idea that Eva was unlikely the culprit and Ange should struggle more to find the real truth (if we can believe she read the Single truth), she wouldn't hurt so much in the end.
Even if Okonogi meant it well. I would compare it to the game "Until dawn", where you can , with a specific character" choose the option "try rescueing your girlfriend" or "rescue yourself". It may unlogical at first (the game give you many hints thanks to magical predictions) but it is not obvious what choice is the right to rescue both characters.
For Ange, it might led to a worse path than believing Eva was the culprit.

Well, Okonogi defended Eva but didn't try to push Ange to search for another culprit, he insisted according to him it was an incident. If Ange could at least stop hating Eva and stop obsessing over finding a truth that, apparently, couldn't be found (as no one knew of the whereabout of the diary... and even if they knew believing in the diary in the real world is entirely up to the reader) she could start living her own life.
After all it's possible to speculate that Ep 4 Ange too read the diary, rejected it as a lie Eva wrote and then started her own quest.

On the opposite, if we try and look at Okonogi without love we can say he encouraged Ange to search the truth on purpose. Remember that Ep 4/6 staged up the fact that Okonogi wanted Ange dead along with some Sumadera. Feeding up Ange's wish to know the truth very much served to the purpose of having Ange wandeding alone on Rokkenjima and ending up killed.

So Okonogi's words could have been said to:
- lead Ange to put her quest to rest by accepting it was an incident
- lead Ange to investigate more so Okonogi could stage her demise

As Okonogi is a well known horrible person in Higurashi and Rose Guns Days I think you can safely look at him without love.

Originally Posted by Mali

Yes, they do. But but makes me wonder why EP8 alternates happiness and sadness.
I don't think Tohya chose to include Bern's game with Battler's family as the canon culprits. The message to this came much later to Ange. Well it was portrayed that only Battler could make a change, that was a good sign of Ange's biological brother taking a little bit responsibility for her.
Maybe Ikuko didn't want lose her muse

Well, if Tohya ever wrote Twilight it was likely pretty different from how we read it. Maybe it only contained the happy halloween party.

Bern's game is clearly stated in the manga as merely being the result of the speculations of the public opinion and not part of Battler's game.

In short Twilight ends up being formed by two tales... one that says that the family had a happy halloween party and another that said that Rudolf's family killed everyone.
The rest is all meta and we don't know if it was included in Twilight.
The manga seems to imply Ange actually 'saw' the rest when she jumped down the building.
In short her soul was 'saved' by the souls of her family.

[K11chi]

Meh EP8 was so ass I remember all those years waiting for it. It's kinda sad but dragging out a simple manor case to such lengths just doesn't make for a good pay-off I guess.
Should have been something like the Ace Attorney trials imo.

[Ayu-ayu]

Hm, I ought to clarify my own reasoning about Ikuko-Yasu lately.

I agree that the manga presents the "death of Beatrice" very clearly. But what it doesn't tell us is what happened between Battler's attempt to rescue her and his later "rescue" by Ikuko. And we all know how Umineko relies upon unreliable narrators...

I have to note the possible parallels between "Beatrice's" suicide attempt and that of Ange, as well as what it means for "Beatrice" to "die" and for "Ange" to do the same. Also in "Battler's death" and his "rebirth" as Tohya.

My own hypothesis is that Battler DID successfully rescue Yasu. In the process, Yasu discarded her Beatrice identity--perhaps more than just figuratively in the case of the heavy costume and wig--and the remaining gold at the bottom of the sea. Unfortunately, Battler's brain was in fact damaged in the attempt, leaving Yasu as the only competent one to come up with a new way for the two of them to survive (and reason to do so--not for her own sake, but Battler's!) in secret under new identities and backstories.

This would explain the convenience of Ikuko finding the "Confession" bottle, and how a number of points that seem particularly unknowable to Tohya, Eva, and Ange could make their way into the stories. Her agelessness matches the fact that Yasu could not mature much physically due to her injuries. Her power as the master storyteller witch makes more sense this way too.

It's even possible Battler's/Tohya's amnesia itself is feigned or exaggerated, but I'm willing to give him the benefit of the doubt there. But he might have been afraid of being discovered and implicated in the crime, perhaps even seeing himself in some ways an accomplice to Yasu in helping keeping her identity hidden, or feeling unready to come to terms with what Rudolf and Kyrie did and lay this on his sister (protecting her in his own backwards way).


It's one last catbox R07 may have left the lid on as a gift for the happy (?) couple.

What do you think everyone? Even such reasoning is possible for...ah, never mind.

[haguruma]

Originally Posted by Ayu-ayu

I have to note the possible parallels between "Beatrice's" suicide attempt and that of Ange, as well as what it means for "Beatrice" to "die" and for "Ange" to do the same. Also in "Battler's death" and his "rebirth" as Tohya.

The reason why I wouldn't like this idea is more one of message-decay than anything else. The meeting between Ange and Beato in the Golden Land during EP8 relies heavily on the aspect that Ange is the only one still alive. Beato's message of "If you turn your back on reality and just run away, the only thing waiting for you is the land of death" loses a lot of its impact if this was merely a lip-service to keep Ange from killing herself.

My own hypothesis is that [COLOR="RoyalBlue"]Battler DID successfully rescue Yasu. In the process, Yasu discarded her Beatrice identity--perhaps more than just figuratively in the case of the heavy costume and wig--and the remaining gold at the bottom of the sea.

Though it would be necessary to suspend your disbelief so far, as to believe that Battler was able to swim down to her again, reach her ankle, untie the knot on the rope that had the ingot attached to it, strip Sayo out of her costume and then pull her up to the surface and convince her not to let herself drown again as she was completely convinced to do mere minutes ago.

]quote]This would explain the convenience of Ikuko finding the "Confession" bottle, and how a number of points that seem particularly unknowable to Tohya, Eva, and Ange could make their way into the stories.[/quote]
I'm just wondering which unknowable points you are talking about? Since the only story that is likely present to us as it is is EP1, it is really hard to tell what is part of the actual letters/forgeries anyway.

Also, it would mean that the manga used not only textual but also visual deception at certain points, when there is no way for us to prove one way or the other. Ikuko tells Ange that figuring out the whole truth made her want to make Tohya and Ange meet, but it was Tohya who refused. Why would she lie about such a thing?

Her agelessness matches the fact that Yasu could not mature much physically due to her injuries.

That is never said. Her body would not mature sexually, but it would still age. If it would keep her body from aging at all, she would possibly still be childlike today.

Her power as the master storyteller witch makes more sense this way too.

I never really liked this idea.
It is very much made clear from Featherine's first appearance that her role in the witch's world is set and that she is much older and much more powerful than Beato ever was. There is no hint that connects the two characters, while it is established that there are lots of witches creating stories since forever.

Also, we are told in the EP8 manga that the plot for the forgeries came from Tohya, Ikuko was just doing the writing. So unless either Tohya is actually Sayo and Ikuko is actually Battler, Sayo would not create the stories anymore anyway.

It's one last catbox R07 may have left the lid on as a gift for the happy (?) couple.

It might be, but I just don't see anything actually hinting at it.

[jjblue1]

Originally Posted by Ayu-ayu

Hm, I ought to clarify my own reasoning about Ikuko-Yasu lately.

I agree that the manga presents the "death of Beatrice" very clearly. But what it doesn't tell us is what happened between Battler's attempt to rescue her and his later "rescue" by Ikuko. And we all know how Umineko relies upon unreliable narrators...

I have to note the possible parallels between "Beatrice's" suicide attempt and that of Ange, as well as what it means for "Beatrice" to "die" and for "Ange" to do the same. Also in "Battler's death" and his "rebirth" as Tohya.

My own hypothesis is that Battler DID successfully rescue Yasu. In the process, Yasu discarded her Beatrice identity--perhaps more than just figuratively in the case of the heavy costume and wig--and the remaining gold at the bottom of the sea. Unfortunately, Battler's brain was in fact damaged in the attempt, leaving Yasu as the only competent one to come up with a new way for the two of them to survive (and reason to do so--not for her own sake, but Battler's!) in secret under new identities and backstories.

This would explain the convenience of Ikuko finding the "Confession" bottle, and how a number of points that seem particularly unknowable to Tohya, Eva, and Ange could make their way into the stories. Her agelessness matches the fact that Yasu could not mature much physically due to her injuries. Her power as the master storyteller witch makes more sense this way too.

It's even possible Battler's/Tohya's amnesia itself is feigned or exaggerated, but I'm willing to give him the benefit of the doubt there. But he might have been afraid of being discovered and implicated in the crime, perhaps even seeing himself in some ways an accomplice to Yasu in helping keeping her identity hidden, or feeling unready to come to terms with what Rudolf and Kyrie did and lay this on his sister (protecting her in his own backwards way).


It's one last catbox R07 may have left the lid on as a gift for the happy (?) couple.

What do you think everyone? Even such reasoning is possible for...ah, never mind.

While in the past I loved that theory I think that the changes that took place in Ep 8 manga version had the purpose to diclose the truth, not to be unreliable.

Everything is clarified compared to the VN, from why Ange had two possible endings to how Battler and BEATRICE ended up on a boat.
Clarifications include also how Tohya and Ikuko could manage to get to know all the truth.

I can't really think at this point Ryukishi did all that to troll us. If this would be the case we could put into question everything, even the Sayotrice theory because unreliable narration.

Before, with just the VN, it was still possible to think that the narration was unreliable because the narration kept on jumping from a point to another without explaining and glissing on important details so that it seemed 'magic' how the characters could reach a certain point.

With just the VN one could keep on asking:
how Ikuko and Tohya knew such intimate details of Sayo's life?
how Battler and Beatrice ended up on a boat, happy and cheerful as if they were the Battler and Beatrice from Ep 6 (Battler promised he would take that Beatrice away from Rokkenjima)?
Which was the truth of what happened to Rokkenjima?
What in the world happened when Tohya saw Beatrice's portray?

The manga though, ended up on answering to all those questions. We don't jump anymore from a point to another but we smoothly reach the scenes.

Yes, we aren't shown how Battler drifted till he reached a beach and then the road on which Ikuko found him... but he was completely wasted while Ikuko looked just fine. It's a clear hint he had a hard time while she... not so much.

Even if I truly wanted badly for Ikuko to be Sayo and hoped about it till... basically chap 38, the manga didn't add a single bit of evidence toward that direction but insisted in the opposite one. Sayo died, she was among all the other dead Ushiromiya and friends (while Battler was kept away from them as in 1998 he's technically still alive).

Said all this I find the idea of Ikuko as poorly done as how the gold was carried on Rokkenjima.
Is a convenient narrative expedient on which we're asked not to think too hard.
Historically speaking it makes no sense for the Italian submarine to carry the gold in Japan.
Though Ryukishi might have not known that back then Italian submarines in such situation would go to Spain it's still a huge suspension of disbelief and it's handled in such a way it feels pretty random (oh, an Italian submarine arrived in Japan for only God knows which reasons as the officiers are conveniently dead, and it's carrying gold which could be Italian or German or whatever country's with an emblem with an eagle if we put it this way, and it's also conveniently carrying a beautiful woman who speak English [back then it was much more common for Italians to know French, not English], which Kinzo conveniently talks and hey, everyone dies minus Beatrice and Kinzo and no Japanese or American authority comes to check on the base and find the gold so Kinzo can conveniently buy it with all its gold aned explosive and even build a self destruction mechanism in it).

The same applies for Ikuko who finds Battler and is:
conveniently rich,
willing to bribe a doctor to keep secret the fact she found him,
trust Battler even if he's an unknown person and could be a serial murder for all she knows,
lives alone with some maids who won't tattle out how she's hiding a man,
loves mystery,
has a good writing style,
is willing to keep Battler living with her and paying for all his living expenses and even have him operated if necessary.

So yes, if you ask me I find Ikuko is a poor narrative expedient... but still sadly she's not meant to be Sayo. I would have loved if she were but I resign myself to the fact that wasn't Ryukishi's intention.

The 'happy' ending for Sayo and Battler is reached by the fact that in the afterlife their souls manage to find one another and this time they won't let go of each other. I hope this means they'll also reincarnate together and be together in the next life.

Tohya instead is meant to be a different person than Battler and go on with his life with a different person than Sayo. He let his inner Battler go so he could be reunited with Beatrice. I really think there's nothing more to it.

[OtakuKamiSama]

I just watched the love duel scene. It seems to me this scene actually displays one aspect of yasu's motive, which is to how far each aspects of her split personalities will go for "love". Does seem similar to what any of you think?

[Ayu-ayu]

Originally Posted by haguruma

The reason why I wouldn't like this idea is more one of message-decay than anything else. The meeting between Ange and Beato in the Golden Land during EP8 relies heavily on the aspect that Ange is the only one still alive. Beato's message of "If you turn your back on reality and just run away, the only thing waiting for you is the land of death" loses a lot of its impact if this was merely a lip-service to keep Ange from killing herself.

I'm not sure I fully agree. Because Sayo and Battler have "been there". But I see your point.

Though it would be necessary to suspend your disbelief so far, as to believe that Battler was able to swim down to her again, reach her ankle, untie the knot on the rope that had the ingot attached to it, strip Sayo out of her costume and then pull her up to the surface and convince her not to let herself drown again as she was completely convinced to do mere minutes ago.

But that's not what I said or meant. What I meant is that Battler attempted to save her but passed out. Sayo saw this and the only way to save Battler was to take him back to the surface herself. So it's not that Battler did all this, but rather that Sayo aborted her suicide because of her love for Battler. Because I think it's clear that she decided she wanted him to live.

But I know this is purely speculation.

I'm just wondering which unknowable points you are talking about? Since the only story that is likely present to us as it is is EP1, it is really hard to tell what is part of the actual letters/forgeries anyway.

True...let me see if I can find my old notes and if I'm going out on a limb on that part. The more I think about it, the parts I thought were like that are answerable with the manga episode 8. So I'll back down on that unless I can provide some proper examples. Some of my old ideas are hard to shake.

Also, it would mean that the manga used not only textual but also visual deception at certain points, when there is no way for us to prove one way or the other. Ikuko tells Ange that figuring out the whole truth made her want to make Tohya and Ange meet, but it was Tohya who refused. Why would she lie about such a thing?

I'd forgotten that line, good catch.

That is never said. Her body would not mature sexually, but it would still age. If it would keep her body from aging at all, she would possibly still be childlike today.

I was thinking more about how the story emphasized that Sayo's physique was impacted, leading to her looking younger than her age. I agree that this is a stretch, but I was thinking also more about how Sayo is used to putting on these guises combined her somewhat spritely physique would lead to her having a seemingly ageless appearance as she got further on in her years.

I never really liked this idea.
It is very much made clear from Featherine's first appearance that her role in the witch's world is set and that she is much older and much more powerful than Beato ever was. There is no hint that connects the two characters, while it is established that there are lots of witches creating stories since forever.

I always thought the reading of her name was a clue, as was the theme of her having the power of the Author, and the sheer convenience of her obtaining the "confession" bottle. But then the other way I've read it is that she's just R07's own self-insertion...

Also, we are told in the EP8 manga that the plot for the forgeries came from Tohya, Ikuko was just doing the writing. So unless either Tohya is actually Sayo and Ikuko is actually Battler, Sayo would not create the stories anymore anyway.

It might be, but I just don't see anything actually hinting at it.

Hm, that is true. I had thought there might be some kind of call and response play between the two as sort of echoed in the Meta, but I agree the way the ep 8 manga explains how episode 3 was written before Eva intervened....yeah, I'm still not properly taking the newest data into consideration.

I'll think on it some more, but I'm more inclined to discard my idea at this point. It just feels like something is off still, but that may just be echoes from the past games making me not want to surrender just yet. Pet theories are always the hardest to let go of.

[Ayu-ayu]

Originally Posted by jjblue1

While in the past I loved that theory I think that the changes that took place in Ep 8 manga version had the purpose to diclose the truth, not to be unreliable.

Everything is clarified compared to the VN, from why Ange had two possible endings to how Battler and BEATRICE ended up on a boat.
Clarifications include also how Tohya and Ikuko could manage to get to know all the truth.

I can't really think at this point Ryukishi did all that to troll us. If this would be the case we could put into question everything, even the Sayotrice theory because unreliable narration.

Before, with just the VN, it was still possible to think that the narration was unreliable because the narration kept on jumping from a point to another without explaining and glissing on important details so that it seemed 'magic' how the characters could reach a certain point.

With just the VN one could keep on asking:
how Ikuko and Tohya knew such intimate details of Sayo's life?
how Battler and Beatrice ended up on a boat, happy and cheerful as if they were the Battler and Beatrice from Ep 6 (Battler promised he would take that Beatrice away from Rokkenjima)?
Which was the truth of what happened to Rokkenjima?
What in the world happened when Tohya saw Beatrice's portray?

The manga though, ended up on answering to all those questions. We don't jump anymore from a point to another but we smoothly reach the scenes.

Yes, we aren't shown how Battler drifted till he reached a beach and then the road on which Ikuko found him... but he was completely wasted while Ikuko looked just fine. It's a clear hint he had a hard time while she... not so much.

Even if I truly wanted badly for Ikuko to be Sayo and hoped about it till... basically chap 38, the manga didn't add a single bit of evidence toward that direction but insisted in the opposite one. Sayo died, she was among all the other dead Ushiromiya and friends (while Battler was kept away from them as in 1998 he's technically still alive).

Well said. I also can see thinking back on it that this also flows best with the theme of Bernkastel promising Ange to find the one fragment in which at least Battler survives, even if it takes a very, very long time to locate it. This turned out to be particularly true, and lives up to the theme of the Witch of Miracles (while Beatrice remains behind, lost to Certainty in the end).

Said all this I find the idea of Ikuko as poorly done as how the gold was carried on Rokkenjima.
Is a convenient narrative expedient on which we're asked not to think too hard.
Historically speaking it makes no sense for the Italian submarine to carry the gold in Japan.
Though Ryukishi might have not known that back then Italian submarines in such situation would go to Spain it's still a huge suspension of disbelief and it's handled in such a way it feels pretty random (oh, an Italian submarine arrived in Japan for only God knows which reasons as the officiers are conveniently dead, and it's carrying gold which could be Italian or German or whatever country's with an emblem with an eagle if we put it this way, and it's also conveniently carrying a beautiful woman who speak English [back then it was much more common for Italians to know French, not English], which Kinzo conveniently talks and hey, everyone dies minus Beatrice and Kinzo and no Japanese or American authority comes to check on the base and find the gold so Kinzo can conveniently buy it with all its gold aned explosive and even build a self destruction mechanism in it).

Ha, yes, also there was that strange bit where they hinted the gold might not be Italian after all which never lead anywhere. I kind of wonder if R07 had some further, more convoluted explanation that he trimmed down...

I do like it though for all its outrageousness. It was so out there, it became hard to be sure if this wasn't just some new giant red herring for a while, another bit of fantasy lore to add to the tale, rather than an important part of the solution.

The same applies for Ikuko who finds Battler and is:
conveniently rich,
willing to bribe a doctor to keep secret the fact she found him,
trust Battler even if he's an unknown person and could be a serial murder for all she knows,
lives alone with some maids who won't tattle out how she's hiding a man,
loves mystery,
has a good writing style,
is willing to keep Battler living with her and paying for all his living expenses and even have him operated if necessary.

So yes, if you ask me I find Ikuko is a poor narrative expedient... but still sadly she's not meant to be Sayo. I would have loved if she were but I resign myself to the fact that wasn't Ryukishi's intention.

The 'happy' ending for Sayo and Battler is reached by the fact that in the afterlife their souls manage to find one another and this time they won't let go of each other. I hope this means they'll also reincarnate together and be together in the next life.

Tohya instead is meant to be a different person than Battler and go on with his life with a different person than Sayo. He let his inner Battler go so he could be reunited with Beatrice. I really think there's nothing more to it.

Thanks, I think that between your comments and Haguruma's at long last I can put the Golden Witch to rest now, too.

[jjblue1]

Originally Posted by Ayu-ayu

I'm not sure I fully agree. Because Sayo and Battler have "been there". But I see your point.

Battler is only partially 'there'. His body is alive but, due to his amnesia, the person that Battler was isn't alive any longer. Tohya is another person, different from him.

Originally Posted by Ayu-ayu

But that's not what I said or meant. What I meant is that Battler attempted to save her but passed out. Sayo saw this and the only way to save Battler was to take him back to the surface herself. So it's not that Battler did all this, but rather that Sayo aborted her suicide because of her love for Battler. Because I think it's clear that she decided she wanted him to live.

But I know this is purely speculation.

Despite writing my own fanfic in which Battler and Sayo managed to survive I've to admit that Sayo would have needed a miracle to save herself in such situation.
The manga shows she's not holding the ingot as we speculated in the past (which would have made rather easy to save her as, as soon as she was about to lose consciousness, she would also lose her grasp on it and therefore stop sinking) but that she tied her ankle to it and that the ingot is litterally pulling her down.

To free yourself from a rope at which is tied something that's pulling the rope in the water is pretty troublesome. To untie a rope in the water becomes a lot harder, expecially if the rope is being pulled as this tends to tighten the node. As if this wasn't bad enough we're shown she tied it pretty tightly around her ankle.
She's underwater by more time than Battler and, differently from him she's not an athlete. She's more likely to be out of breath than him and pass out earlier than him.

Also Battler didn't pass out when trying to save her. He began suffering of lack of air and so his hold weakened and he ended up letting go.
He has no more strength to sink lower (it's not exactly easy to swim deeper in the water) and he's not pulling him down any longer so his body is likely being pulled up by the water itself.
We see though he remains conscious.
What could have been troublesome for him isn't losing consciousness but the fact he likely ended up rising toward the surface too fast. This could have caused him an embolus which could have caused him problems later on.

In short while in the VN due to lack of details we could speculate that Sayo could have been saved the manga made clear that's not the case.

Originally Posted by Ayu-ayu

I was thinking more about how the story emphasized that Sayo's physique was impacted, leading to her looking younger than her age. I agree that this is a stretch, but I was thinking also more about how Sayo is used to putting on these guises combined her somewhat spritely physique would lead to her having a seemingly ageless appearance as she got further on in her years.

Sayo's problem was more that she was underdeveloped for her age as a small child, which fits as she was a sick child. Also note that we were told that as children Battler and Rudolf too were smaller than they should have been and that they started growing only when they went in high school (likely due to finally hitting puberty). Sayo would never hit that state so she's shown considerably shorter than Lion.

Though honestly I've always found a poor decision how they tried to keep Ikuko mysterious by implying she was ageless.

Originally Posted by Ayu-ayu

I always thought the reading of her name was a clue, as was the theme of her having the power of the Author, and the sheer convenience of her obtaining the "confession" bottle. But then the other way I've read it is that she's just R07's own self-insertion...

19th kid? It was assumed it was... as Sayo was 19 but it can also imply she's the 19th person... and therefore someone who wasn't on the gameboard/Rokkenjima.

The whole problem with Umineko's ending is that it's pretty similar to how Kinzo got the gold... it's a long list of plot contrivances.
However as we aren't supposed to investigate on them but just take them at face value the general idea is that we're supposed to suspend our disbelief.

Ikuko is just a random lonely rich person who writes mysteries who casually lives on the island that Battler reaches and by coincidence found Battler while he was suffering of amnesia and randomly decided to keep him and also randomly to keep hidden the fact she found him and by coincidence she found the most important of all the message bottles. Coincidentally she had Battler hit off, randomly becomes successful writers and casually Battler recovers his memory short after she mention the Rokkenjima incident.

In the past we used to joke about how the situation made her resemble Annie Wilkes (it didn't help Battler ended up on a wheelchair) even if it's obvious Umineko doesn't want us to think Ikuko is insane as Annie is.

Originally Posted by Ayu-ayu

Hm, that is true. I had thought there might be some kind of call and response play between the two as sort of echoed in the Meta, but I agree the way the ep 8 manga explains how episode 3 was written before Eva intervened....yeah, I'm still not properly taking the newest data into consideration.

I'll think on it some more, but I'm more inclined to discard my idea at this point. It just feels like something is off still, but that may just be echoes from the past games making me not want to surrender just yet. Pet theories are always the hardest to let go of.

I understand your feelings I've been a strong supporter of the Sayo=Ikuko theory but the manga stripped that idea of logic and possibility by making clear Sayo died and that she wasn't needed alive to hand out info to the Hachijo Tohya duo.

If you ask me I would have much preferred for her to be Ikuko but I've to admit that wasn't Ryukishi's intended purpose.

Originally Posted by Ayu-ayu

Ha, yes, also there was that strange bit where they hinted the gold might not be Italian after all which never lead anywhere. I kind of wonder if R07 had some further, more convoluted explanation that he trimmed down...

I do like it though for all its outrageousness. It was so out there, it became hard to be sure if this wasn't just some new giant red herring for a while, another bit of fantasy lore to add to the tale, rather than an important part of the solution.

My impression about the whole gold mess was that Ryukishi was trying to make it as vague as possible so as to make it look as if it were possible. The more one is specific the easier is to pin down if something is possible or not. The vaguer one is the harder is to confute is affermation.

He reduces everything to "Gold of unknown origin reached Rokkenjima on an Italian submarine for unknown purpose in attempt to accomplis a mission no one knows about".

It's historically unbelievable but it's so vague we can't call it 'impossible'.

[Levani]

This is completely unrelated to the mystery but rather fantasy, but since Meta World or Purgatory is a real realm where Witches and everything supernatural dwells, how do you suppose Ange is able to interact with beings from that world? It seems like there's a certain conditions set for one to be able to reside in the Meta World and one of those are that you're either dead in the real world or you're created in the Meta World by someone else.

Could it be that the reason Ange is able to enter this higher layer of existence is because Ushiromiya Ange "dies" on that skyscraper? (Basically, the same thing as Toyha/Battler?). But that does not explain the Saint Lucia Academy flashbacks. We all know the truth of the real world that she was just daydreaming about friends and Maria, but through Meta World's perspective, is that really true?

And the "journey" trip, is also not real, right? It is just a possible what-if, had Ange pursued her search for the truth. Can it be explained as Meta World Ange watching over her possible future? And can the chronology work like this -

Ange decides to "die" on the skyscraper > Bernkastel takes her to the Meta World > Ange understands what kind of existence this world is > She's viewing her past and the possible what-if scenario with Amakusa > She enters EP3 and stops Battler from signing > Dies in EP4 > Is revived by Featherine, who disguises herself as Hachijo Tohya and erases her Meta memories until she gains it back in EP6 > Featherine's fake human world is shut down, causing Ange to return to her state post EP4 death > Is revived by Bernkastel in EP7 Teaparty > Dies > Is revived by Battler in EP8 and eventually her sole moves on.

I'm strictly asking for the fantasy story here, I know what goes on with her in the real world but the Meta World plotline is confusing.

[AuraTwilight]

It's the same as with any Meta-World character. It's a world of ideas, so all the people are ideas, so their memories and personalities become whatever the current situation requires.

[marianx]

something ive been wondering, is if beatrice is actually trying to hide the culprit. and blaming it on the witch to protect the truth. it partially makes sense to me because of the message bottles, and the 5th game where they pin natushi as the culprit.beatrice even says she will take the blame for pushing the baby off the cliff.. is this right at all?

[Mali]

One of the unclear things in the Umineko universe.

I think the meta story is more linear than you assumed.

I suppose after Tohya wrote Banquet, Ange had "jumped" from the skyscrapter, and, because it became fodder for the press, Ikuko couldn't unsaw that. The press probably shed light on her background like her life in the Academy. (the talkshows may be the source, too).
And thus it was that Tohya included Ange in Banquet and Alliance.


But it doesn't explain how he could included Ange's thoughts (chapter Ange's recollection).
From that perpective, it seems you're more right with your chronology line.
It is stated by "Toya" she knew a lot of Ange... they knew Ange solved many things with money, and the events showing this are part of her investigations: paying the people she interviewed. It may be reason how Tohya knew Ange's search for the truth and giving her tips.
Well, the tips say that Ange had no memory of the meeting (before her trip to Nijjima!), it is forgery, a coincidental chat/emailing with her on the web or they met on the signing event (first contact with Tohya?)
My timeline for that:

Tohya remembered the incident
EP3 - Ange's stops the signing
EP4 - Ange became Bernkastel's piece, start of Ange's journey, "met" Toja, found out what magic is, dissapeared/died on the skyscrapter
EP6 - squashed in flashback, revived for being Featherine's miko
EP7 - death
EP8 - revived

Well, the tips say that Ange had no memory of the meeting (before her trip to Nijjima!), it is forgery, a coincidental chat/emailing with her on the web or they met on the signing event. I think Ange really did the journey, but we probably could only see her piece version, adding many aspects to give out hints.

[Bancho]

Originally Posted by marianx

something ive been wondering, is if beatrice is actually trying to hide the culprit. and blaming it on the witch to protect the truth. it partially makes sense to me because of the message bottles, and the 5th game where they pin natushi as the culprit.beatrice even says she will take the blame for pushing the baby off the cliff.. is this right at all?

The Beatrice that was on Natsuhi's side in EP5 was Natsuhi's delusion. When Beatrice says that she was the one that pushed the servant and the baby, that's basically Natsuhi in denial. Every fantasy character Natsuhi sees is helpful and nice to her, including Kinzo (even though the real one never cared about her), because they were created by her to make herself feel better.

And I'm not sure if it was ever confirmed, but I always thought that the 'legit' message bottles were written before the incident, which would mean that Beatrice wasn't protecting anyone, she was just writing what she was planning to do.

[marianx]

another thing i was wondering just to make sure, the gold truth "i guarantee this is kinzos corpse" was used because everyone believed it? or did it have to do witha completely different rule

[jjblue1]

Originally Posted by marianx

something ive been wondering, is if beatrice is actually trying to hide the culprit. and blaming it on the witch to protect the truth. it partially makes sense to me because of the message bottles, and the 5th game where they pin natushi as the culprit.beatrice even says she will take the blame for pushing the baby off the cliff.. is this right at all?

The manga clarified a couple of things about this.

First the messages in the bottles were sent PRIOR the 4th of October, when Sayo had no idea Rudolf and Kyrie would kill everyone so they don't aim at hiding the culprit. Sayo was hoping that someone would either find them before everything were to start and therefore stop her or that they could understand her through them.

The Beatrice in EP 5 who claims she'll take responsibility for Natsuhi is just Natsuhi's fantasy. The real MetaBeatrice is... comatose. Meanwhile on the gameboard PieceSayo is doing her hardest to pin the blame of everything on Natsuhi.

When MetaBeatrice started the games MetaBattler was suffering a total amnesia (same as Tohya) and her goal was merely to make him remember about her (it's a long story so I recommend reading chap 37 of the manga). Covering up for Rudolf and Kyrie wasn't her goal... though it could have been an added bonus as in Prime Sayo didn't feel like telling to Battler what his parents did.

So it's not like MetaBeatrice's main/sole goal is hiding the culprits... but it can entirely be she doesn't feel like revealing the truth to Battler.

Originally Posted by Mali

One of the unclear things in the Umineko universe.

I think the meta story is more linear than you assumed.

I suppose after Tohya wrote Banquet, Ange had "jumped" from the skyscrapter, and, because it became fodder for the press, Ikuko couldn't unsaw that. The press probably shed light on her background like her life in the Academy. (the talkshows may be the source, too).
And thus it was that Tohya included Ange in Banquet and Alliance.

Very likely Ange is neither in Tohya's versions of Banquet nor Alliance as she's not a piece in the gameboard, merely a meta character.
Ep 8 manga version implied that the people in the Meta are nothing else but souls, ence the meta isn't part of Tohya's tales but a separate "universe".

Originally Posted by Mali

But it doesn't explain how he could included Ange's thoughts (chapter Ange's recollection).
From that perpective, it seems you're more right with your chronology line.
It is stated by "Toya" she knew a lot of Ange... they knew Ange solved many things with money, and the events showing this are part of her investigations: paying the people she interviewed. It may be reason how Tohya knew Ange's search for the truth and giving her tips.
Well, the tips say that Ange had no memory of the meeting (before her trip to Nijjima!), it is forgery, a coincidental chat/emailing with her on the web or they met on the signing event (first contact with Tohya?)
My timeline for that:

Tohya remembered the incident
EP3 - Ange's stops the signing
EP4 - Ange became Bernkastel's piece, start of Ange's journey, "met" Toja, found out what magic is, dissapeared/died on the skyscrapter
EP6 - squashed in flashback, revived for being Featherine's miko
EP7 - death
EP8 - revived

Well, the tips say that Ange had no memory of the meeting (before her trip to Nijjima!), it is forgery, a coincidental chat/emailing with her on the web or they met on the signing event. I think Ange really did the journey, but we probably could only see her piece version, adding many aspects to give out hints.

In a way after jumping from the building Ange's soul ended up trapped in a gameboard of some sort of her own, where her piece version tried various possibilities:
going to Rokkenjima
meeting Hachijo Tohya
dying
killing Amakusa

until her true self decided her own path.

The manga confirmed that in Prime Ange really met Ikuko. The fact that in Ep 6 she has troubles remembering (as well as the bit about Amakusa planning to kill her when we know in Prime he was merely tasked to protect her) likely hints to the fact that the one we see in Ep 6 isn't Prime but a gameboard.
In fact we learn that in Prime Ange met Ikuko after Ange had collected Eva's diary and Ikuko gave her the key.
In short things went in a way that was more similar to Ep 8 than to Ep 6.

Ange's memories likely come from MetaAnge, who's nothing else but a part of Ange's soul. Ence her memory are just real memories. After all, even if they were to release details about Ange's life the memories we see are too detailed to reach the press as they are. They'll end up being speculations. But, if they're Ange's true memories they can be as true as possible.

Originally Posted by marianx

another thing i was wondering just to make sure, the gold truth "i guarantee this is kinzos corpse" was used because everyone believed it? or did it have to do witha completely different rule

More than everyone it was the truth in which Battler believed. The use of golden truth though usually requires also knowing the true truth (though not necessarily red truth and gold truth match) that's why it's a truth usually only the game master or who understood the game can use.

The gamemaster know the truth about the game. Battler's golden truth was also a red truth. Kinzo is truly dead and Battler truly believes in it.

The second golden truth about chick Beatrice using magic (Ep 6) instead run counter the red truth. For the red truth Beatrice didn't use magic but a trick, but still Beatrice despite being aware of that, can call what chick Beatrice did 'magic'.

The third Golden truth (Ep 8) which Battler uses is again a truth that matches red. He truly wrote that game for Ange and truly believes so.

The 4th Golden truth (Ep 8) used by Ange is again a golden truth that goes against the red. For the red truth Ange's family is dead, for the gold truth they're alive as Ange truly believes they're alive in her heart.

[Mali]

Originally Posted by jjblue1

Very likely Ange is neither in Tohya's versions of Banquet nor Alliance as she's not a piece in the gameboard, merely a meta character.
Ep 8 manga version implied that the people in the Meta are nothing else but souls, ence the meta isn't part of Tohya's tales but a separate "universe".

Do You think? I see your point if Umineko has a frame story (which I don't know...).
I'm not a literature expert, but I regard the tales on Rokkenjima as whole books, including the meta world. There are enough scenes where gameboard, magic world and meta world overlap.
It does not feel "wrong" if you look them as a whole, and it's not wrong if the author wanted to describe his feelings in the story.
In the end it doesn't matter because we, the reader, could grasp the whole thing.

Thanks for clearing up what happens with Ange.

[marianx]

can someone explain to me how the rules were made to help battler.also im having trouble understanding beatrice heart as a whole, if anyone can give me some hints id appreciate it. specifically what i need help with is understanding beatrice moves/ the patterns she uses