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Old 2014-01-20, 03:14   Link #33841
GreyZone
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Unless it violently explodes when you lose I'm not interested
That'd be a spoiler!
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Old 2014-01-20, 15:10   Link #33842
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No, see, the beauty is you never get to stop playing, ever, until your family comes looking for you.
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Old 2014-01-20, 19:27   Link #33843
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I know that there's a Pachinko Umineko game and the awesome thing of it is that as you play you can see Umineko scenes animated from Umineko and Umineko chiru with a different chara design from the anime... and from the little I saw the animated scenes seem cool.
It seems there's also an opening...

On a different theme... I was wondering about Ep 7 and the parallel between young Kinzo and Yasu so... what if in Rokkenjima Prime when the adults started shooting at each other Yasu, who like Kinzo previously believed she was searching for her death, got scared by the shooting and tried escaping?
Yes, yes, I know that Kinzo's story was biased toward Kinzo but maybe it was also a hint on what really happened on Prime. While everyone started killing everyone else Yasu realized maybe she wasn't so ready to die and tried escaping.
If she managed to do so because the adults were focused on each other and managed to warn someone then for Kyrie and Rudolf it becomes an imperative to kill everyone else because everyone else knows they murdered Eva, Hideyoshi and Rosa... while previously they could hide the corpses, say they couldn't find Rosa, Hideyoshi and Eva but that they had found a tunnel and then invite everyone in Kuwadorian where they would wait for the island to go KABOOM then they could fire the servant and adopt Eva and Jessica. George, I guess, is old enough to handle things on his own. They wouldn't have to share the bank account and would look a lot less suspicious because they could have so many people testifying they did nothing suspicious and maybe support them into pushing the blame on Kinzo or on Beatrice...
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Old 2014-01-20, 19:35   Link #33844
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Wasn't it implied that Kinzo instigated the fighting between the Japanese and the Italians?

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previously they could hide the corpses, say they couldn't find Rosa, Hideyoshi and Eva but that they had found a tunnel and then invite everyone in Kuwadorian where they would wait for the island to go KABOOM then they could fire the servant and adopt Eva and Jessica. George, I guess, is old enough to handle things on his own. They wouldn't have to share the bank account and would look a lot less suspicious because they could have so many people testifying they did nothing suspicious and maybe support them into pushing the blame on Kinzo or on Beatrice...
That really wouldn't have been an option, all the servants knew about Yasu's scheme according to Our Confession. They could say to the police "Yasu had this cash card, you should probably search Kyrie and Rudolf for it because they mysteriously were the only survivors of a trip to the room full of gold".
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Old 2014-01-20, 19:59   Link #33845
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Wasn't it implied that Kinzo instigated the fighting between the Japanese and the Italians?
Bern's red truth was more about him wanting to steal the gold than instigating the fight.

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"S, steal the Italians' gold, you say? You coward, Ushiromiya! And you call yourself a soldier of the Empire?!!"
But yes, by suggedting to steal it he might have instigated the fight.

Technically Yasu too instigated the fight as she presented the adults with gold and guns... although it's also possible she couldn't guess the adults would start murdering each other over the gold.

This still won't deny the possibility that, although she planned to murder someone, when the real murdering started, she had a panic attack and tried to escape... or that the same could have happened to Kinzo.

Kinzo might have also been honest in saying he enrolled into the military because he hated his life and longed to die but didn't have the gut to pull the trigger himself... then saw Beatrice and decided that getting her and the gold was a better option and abandoned himself to a different roulette of fate.

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That really wouldn't have been an option, all the servants knew about Yasu's scheme according to Our Confession. They could say to the police "Yasu had this cash card, you should probably search Kyrie and Rudolf for it because they mysteriously were the only survivors of a trip to the room full of gold".
Would they really speak about it? Talking about it would require them to explain many things in which they were accomplices, like closing their eyes when Kinzo committed incest, hiding Yasu from his family, hiding Kinzo's death, hiding how they handed the money to Yasu and how Yasu bribed them into playing in his game or how Kinzo kept some illegal gold in a room and they knew it (and their paycheek could come from it). Genji and Nanjo might also be forced to confess that Yasu actually planned to murder people for real and they were bribed/blackmailed into keeping silent.
Kumasawa and Gohda though probably don't know much about Yasu's plans as they were thinking it was all a joke.
And Rudolf and Kyrie wouldn't say they were the only survivors, just that they got there later and couldn't find the others.
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Old 2014-01-20, 20:28   Link #33846
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The Kinzo/Yasu thing seems like an interesting parallel. I guess you could go one further and include Kyrie's eventual resolve to kill Asumu as something similar.

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Would they really speak about it? Talking about it would require them to explain many things in which they were accomplices, like closing their eyes when Kinzo committed incest, hiding Yasu from his family, hiding Kinzo's death, hiding how they handed the money to Yasu and how Yasu bribed them into playing in his game or how Kinzo kept some illegal gold in a room and they knew it (and their paycheek could come from it). Genji and Nanjo might also be forced to confess that Yasu actually planned to murder people for real and they were bribed/blackmailed into keeping silent.
Kumasawa and Gohda though probably don't know much about Yasu's plans as they were thinking it was all a joke.
And Rudolf and Kyrie wouldn't say they were the only survivors, just that they got there later and couldn't find the others.
I don't think anyone other than maybe Genji knew about the plan to murder for real - Nanjo generally seems surprised that people are dying for real on the game-boards, and only stays silent because he's scared.

But what the servants probably do know about would still make it difficult for Kyrie. They'd probably know:
- About the gold
- That Yasu hands out cash cards (in particular, they could tell the police about this and make it impossible for Kyrie to smuggle the card out)
- About the bomb (at the very least Gohda probably would - he doesn't seem to particularly want or need money and he dislikes Yasu, so he must have been threatened)
- That the adults were all attempting to solve the epitaph together and went off to find the gold together

I don't think Gohda would hesitate to reveal everything to the police if a lethal incident occurred, and the other conspirators probably would too if pressured. If this happened then Kyrie definitely wouldn't get any money and could also be in legal trouble.

e: In fact Gohda is really grateful to Natsuhi and Krauss for giving him another chance to do the job he loves, the idea that he'd help cover up their incredibly suspicious disappearances seems unlikely.
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Old 2014-01-21, 17:19   Link #33847
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The Kinzo/Yasu thing seems like an interesting parallel. I guess you could go one further and include Kyrie's eventual resolve to kill Asumu as something similar.
In a way it is similar as Yasu planned to kill everyone but in the end didn't, same as Kyrie who planned to kill Asumu but in the end didn't.

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I don't think anyone other than maybe Genji knew about the plan to murder for real - Nanjo generally seems surprised that people are dying for real on the game-boards, and only stays silent because he's scared.
Genji was planned to be an accomplice in blackmailing Krauss and Natsuhi by threatening to kill them, so I'll say he must know Yasu is doing something seriously wrong. Also he likely knew in the first twilight of Ep 1 that Yasu didn't buy any body double and when he finds Nanjo and Kumasawa in Ep 2 he must have understood they were dead and yet didn't warn Rosa or Battler to escape.

Nanjo checks the bodies right in the first twilight of Ep 1 and knows they're real dead people yet when Hideyoshi and Kanon say Shannon is also dead he suspects nothing. I'll say it's more likely Nanjo was blackmailed as Natsuhi was in Ep 5. There are various things for which Nanjo can be blamed, starting from helping Beatrice Castiglioni and ending with hiding Kinzo's death.
Nanjo also has a sick grandchild for which he likely needs money and is job. He's an easy target to blackmail.

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But what the servants probably do know about would still make it difficult for Kyrie. They'd probably know:
- About the gold
- That Yasu hands out cash cards (in particular, they could tell the police about this and make it impossible for Kyrie to smuggle the card out)
- About the bomb (at the very least Gohda probably would - he doesn't seem to particularly want or need money and he dislikes Yasu, so he must have been threatened)
- That the adults were all attempting to solve the epitaph together and went off to find the gold together
They can't talk about the gold or the cash cards though, or they would be accomplices in hiding the gold and this would also raise the issue of how Yasu could hand cash cards. Did she steal the money from the Ushiromiya? If that's the case, and in a way it is, by knowing it they're accomplices.

With this two confessions only they would likely become even more suspicious than Kyrie. And if someone discovers Yasu sent them money they would be even more suspicious.

The problem about the adults is related to the story Kyrie and Rudolf tell and how much the servants know about the adults' treasure hunt. If they didn't witness them leave they didn't know they left.
After all Eva found the gold without anyone realizing, Rosa also found it on her own but after Eva and no one noticed. Rudolf and Kyrie can say the same happened here. They spend some time together but couldn't solve the epitaph, then had an idea but, by the time they reached the chapel, the door was already open and no one was there.
They can even wait the morning or the afternoon of the day after and then either pretend to search for the other adults, who solved the epitaph without them, or 'solve the epitaph' and find the open door.

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I don't think Gohda would hesitate to reveal everything to the police if a lethal incident occurred, and the other conspirators probably would too if pressured. If this happened then Kyrie definitely wouldn't get any money and could also be in legal trouble.

e: In fact Gohda is really grateful to Natsuhi and Krauss for giving him another chance to do the job he loves, the idea that he'd help cover up their incredibly suspicious disappearances seems unlikely.
Gohda was bribed by Yasu into taking part to a murder game. He might think their disappearence was part of the game and when the island goes Kaboom he can think to an incident, like the police does. Or at blaming Yasu.

Really, with Yasu owning money enough to bribe people into playing to a murder game she becomes the most suspicious one. Gohda might even think she planned to kill everyone and that they escaped out of luck.

Also if he were to bring up he'd been bribed into taking part to such prank he becomes suspicious as well. And with the police finding the bottles Yasu would look even more suspicious.

So, really, I don't think the servants could or would point their fingers at Rudolf and Kyrie as it would backfire on them too... and they've a better target to be suspicious of.
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Old 2014-01-21, 18:48   Link #33848
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Sorry if I'm just barging in, but can someone enlighten me on what the "truth" of umineko is supposed to be? Just read the VN, but I'm honestly not a thorough reader (not much time) and more than figuring out answers myself I enjoy sewing the web of truth together in my brain with the help of answers.

Less of a question: It's really annoying how the narrator is constantly going haywire. Simple questions like "Did Jessica ever meet Shannon/Kanon" that would normally have an obvious answer aren't granted one due to the fickle narration. It's quite cruel of ryukishi.
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Old 2014-01-21, 23:11   Link #33849
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We don't know, for sure. The 'Truth' was never revealed, so as to leave it up to interpretation.
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Old 2014-01-22, 06:58   Link #33850
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It's strongly hinted that the ep7 Tea Party (or something very like it) is what Eva wrote in her diary though. And thst's explicitly stated in the manga.
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Old 2014-01-22, 07:42   Link #33851
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Sorry if I'm just barging in, but can someone enlighten me on what the "truth" of umineko is supposed to be? Just read the VN, but I'm honestly not a thorough reader (not much time) and more than figuring out answers myself I enjoy sewing the web of truth together in my brain with the help of answers.

Less of a question: It's really annoying how the narrator is constantly going haywire. Simple questions like "Did Jessica ever meet Shannon/Kanon" that would normally have an obvious answer aren't granted one due to the fickle narration. It's quite cruel of ryukishi.
If you're looking for an in-depth analysis then I would definitely recommend checking out the Stupid Goats readthrough. It's kind of really really long (and ongoing), but the heart of Umineko was never meant to be something you could summarise in a few paragraphs.

This interview is also very much worth reading if you haven't seen it already.
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Old 2014-01-22, 13:35   Link #33852
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We don't know, for sure. The 'Truth' was never revealed, so as to leave it up to interpretation.
I see. Though, supposedly, many have read it and reached the "truth". Shouldn't there be a way to explain it somehow simply. It's just so difficult finding time nowadays to really get into this VN. Hmm.

I do get the feeling it's a lot about how magic is just delusions but that you should let it be if it does no harm. Anything remotely close to that?

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Originally Posted by Drifloon View Post
If you're looking for an in-depth analysis then I would definitely recommend checking out the Stupid Goats readthrough. It's kind of really really long (and ongoing), but the heart of Umineko was never meant to be something you could summarise in a few paragraphs.

This interview is also very much worth reading if you haven't seen it already.
Just reading a random note (ep 4 part 7) of his made me really like the idea of writing notes constantly while reading the VN. Man, had I only come across an analysis like that earlier, perhaps I would've taken it more slowly, really thinking about everything. I was soooo far away from understanding the answer to the "who am I". I assumed it was to be revealed later and was impossible to reason out (and I guess I still kind of think it ought to be incredibly hard to solve at that moment).

I've already read that interview actually. His constant exhortation for the readers to think more deeply is partially what made me want to take the VN more seriously. I barely tried enough on the Bern's trial, I was "not trusting the writer" and instead gave up way too early because I was split between whether multiple culprits were allowed (assuming they weren't and coming to the craziest of conclusions (no one could be culprit )).

I reckon I could have had so much more fun with this game. Ep 5-8 was aimed to those who had reached the truth, for them to double-check their notes, for me it was just exciting battles of truths.

Lastly, is the "golden truth" also part of knowing the "truth"? They introduce it in ep 5 and have it come back randomly, it seemed really cool but I never got to understand it's use.
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Old 2014-01-22, 15:09   Link #33853
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Sorry if I'm just barging in, but can someone enlighten me on what the "truth" of umineko is supposed to be? Just read the VN, but I'm honestly not a thorough reader (not much time) and more than figuring out answers myself I enjoy sewing the web of truth together in my brain with the help of answers.

Less of a question: It's really annoying how the narrator is constantly going haywire. Simple questions like "Did Jessica ever meet Shannon/Kanon" that would normally have an obvious answer aren't granted one due to the fickle narration. It's quite cruel of ryukishi.
Well, the idea behind Umineko is that the reader must think at it and find his own answer. So yes, if you started Umineko just to have some fun and didn't want to devote a lot of time over it, it can be very annoying and unsatisfing.

If instead you like wondering over facts over and over and try to find out the truth on your own, Umineko can be awesome.

But it really depend on what you're into.

Said this I understand the frustration of not being able to believe blindly to the narrator as I've felt it too but in the long run a side of me had come to enjoy playing with the catbox and trying to find my own truth... although I won't deny I'm happy the manga is slowly handing out answers.
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Old 2014-01-22, 16:53   Link #33854
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I see. Though, supposedly, many have read it and reached the "truth". Shouldn't there be a way to explain it somehow simply. It's just so difficult finding time nowadays to really get into this VN. Hmm.
Make time; it's worth it, and you can't appreciate anyone's glimpses of the 'Truth' without it. There's no PROPER way to summarize the truth because it's so contextual to the entire work.

Quote:

Lastly, is the "golden truth" also part of knowing the "truth"? They introduce it in ep 5 and have it come back randomly, it seemed really cool but I never got to understand it's use.
The Gold Truth is essentially like an Administrator's Cheat Codes; it is only usable by one who has reached the Truth. It is sometimes stronger than the Red, sometimes weaker. It seems to be, essentially, the ability to make inferences and fill in blanks with valid personal truths of the heart.

For instance, adding your own interpretation to a work. I could say Battler is gay and his childish behavior is just a beard to avoid controversy since it's the 1980's; btw Beatrice is actually a man and no one could prove me right or wrong. It's an entirely valid interpretation of the work that I can construct because I've read the whole thing and there's nothing to vindicate or condemn it.
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Old 2014-01-23, 02:41   Link #33855
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The Gold Truth is essentially like an Administrator's Cheat Codes; it is only usable by one who has reached the Truth. It is sometimes stronger than the Red, sometimes weaker. It seems to be, essentially, the ability to make inferences and fill in blanks with valid personal truths of the heart.

For instance, adding your own interpretation to a work. I could say Battler is gay and his childish behavior is just a beard to avoid controversy since it's the 1980's; btw Beatrice is actually a man and no one could prove me right or wrong. It's an entirely valid interpretation of the work that I can construct because I've read the whole thing and there's nothing to vindicate or condemn it.
Ahh... interesting. So if there's no red truth to counter it, you can say it in gold. Hmm. Though, it does sound very much like using the blue since it's a way to look at things as well.

Battler said something along the lines of "Ushiromiya Kinzo is dead". Had I reached the truth as well and for example were battling Battler at that point, wouldn't I be able to say "Ushiromiya Kinzo is alive" in the same way since that MIGHT be possible (if not disproved by the red in that game board); he might be hiding for some reason you might be able to reason out.
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Old 2014-01-23, 03:49   Link #33856
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Ahh... interesting. So if there's no red truth to counter it, you can say it in gold. Hmm. Though, it does sound very much like using the blue since it's a way to look at things as well.

Battler said something along the lines of "Ushiromiya Kinzo is dead". Had I reached the truth as well and for example were battling Battler at that point, wouldn't I be able to say "Ushiromiya Kinzo is alive" in the same way since that MIGHT be possible (if not disproved by the red in that game board); he might be hiding for some reason you might be able to reason out.
He actually said "I guarantee that this corpse belongs to Ushiromiya Kinzo" or something like that
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Old 2014-01-23, 03:56   Link #33857
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Yea. Gold Truth is essentially like JK Rowling saying that Dumbledore is gay.
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Old 2014-01-23, 14:18   Link #33858
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Yea. Gold Truth is essentially like JK Rowling saying that Dumbledore is gay.
Though isn't THAT more like a Red Truth since she is basically the god of the HP world? She's like author Yasu and author Tohya in the sense that she can also make up Reds (the first kind of two that Battler mentioned in EP8 (1)) as long as they don't violate the frame of the narrative and don't go against the second kind of Red (which would be like a canon maybe?!).

Gold Truth is more like very canonized fanfiction?!
It can be true in the sense that there technically existed a situation that validates the claim, but people have to cling to the Gold Truth because no evidence exists that enables them to speak something in Red.

In EP5 the only reason that Battler was disqualified for claiming in Red that Natsuhi was innocent was that he couldn't produce any evidence for his claim. He also couldn't claim Kinzo's death in Red because there wasn't any evidence besides a corpse that wasn't really identifiable beyond any doubt.

The Gold Truth in that way is more like the fans claiming Sirius Black isn't dead, because, while there is evidence for his death, there is also a lack of immediate proof. We saw him vanish into an object that is rumored to kill you immediately, but could also claim that this is different from actually dying, since Harry came back from death as well.

I'd call it a "fan product justification button"
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Old 2014-01-24, 01:23   Link #33859
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I had some thoughts I needed airing, this seemed like an appropriate spot.

In regards to how Battler could forgive Yasu for everything, do you think it is as simple as just because she only planned terrible things, but didn't actually do it? I know she even set up the guns, but hear me out.

You might say that it wasn't that Yasu wasn't able to go through with it, more accurately she was stopped by a rule she herself invented (let's not delve into that for the moment).

We know that Kyrie planned and may have even prepared to kill Asumu, but in the end she didn't have to because Asumu died (probably). Would you be able to forgive her for that? Even if she had the knife prepared?

Or Maria, who planned to kill her mother. You could say it was idle fantasy, but there is sufficient evidence to say she went to Beato about it. If she prepared and cast a magic spell that she thought would kill her mother, would you forgive her just because her mother lived? The only reason she was stopped was because magic isn't real, which wasn't even something she chose.

In TL;dr summary:
Do you think Battler forgave her because she was only guilty of conspiracy to commit murder and was desperately mentally unwell?
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Old 2014-01-24, 13:47   Link #33860
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I agree with that interpretation, and I think the Maria parallel is a good point. Yasu's plan was naive and doomed to fail, and the weaknesses in it expose the fact that she didn't really want to go through with it.

Interestingly, if the episode 7 Tea Party is to be believed then murders would have happened even if Yasu hadn't laid her plans, so she arguably doesn't carry any responsibility for the actual murders at all. Presumably the incident would have been a lot less sensational without the bottles, though.
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