AnimeSuki Forums

hooliganj · 2004-10-28, 17:57

For the sake of consistancy, here's an official thread for episode 26.

I like both of the characters introduced here, the P.I. and the old pshychologist. And an honest approach to a recovering alchoholic character is always interesting to follow. It makes me root for the guy, because I know he's battling his demons, one day at a time.

Also, somehow, the image of Johan surrounded by young children is the creepiest one yet.

Mitsukage · 2004-10-29, 07:31

I agree that part where it showes Johan with bunch of kids, it's just plain freaky.

However, I've got a question regarding that part.

Spoiler for episode 26:

That part really drew me some questions marks.

avmoghe · 2004-11-03, 23:11

Hmm... Not quite sure what to make of this episode. It was interesting.. but confusing.

1.) Why is Johan crying? My best guess is that he's trying to recruit Karl for muder? That is the only possible explanation I can think of.

2.) Why did Johan leave the book in the room. The book stood out. Why not just take the book after the suicide. Now his little game has been discovered. Is he trying to get caught?

3.) What possible motive does Johan have in rejuvenating the old guy. I can't come up with anything here. If he wanted to he could've done it himself many times before Karl and Lotte suggested it.

Something very strange going on. Guess we'll see soon enough.

The only real complaint about this episode is Johan walking on the edge. That seemed to just be thrown in for melodramatic effect.

Crowley · 2004-11-03, 23:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by avmoghe

2.) Why did Johan leave the book in the room. The book stood out. Why not just take the book after the suicide. Now his little game has been discovered. Is he trying to get caught?

Johan probably left it with Farren to get that line translated, as a setup for the suicide "note." The note made it look like a suicide, to deflect any investigation. A little risky, but it would have been even riskier to go back after Farren had killed himself to take it back. He can't have anyone see them together, even if the police had found the out-of-place book there was nothing to connect Farren and the book with Johan.

avmoghe · 2004-11-04, 01:54

Yup, I understand that the note was supposed to deflect attention.

What I don't understand is leaving the book there. Why not just grab it on the way out after killing him? He doesn't have to go back into the room. If he used someone else to do the dirty work, why not ask the henchman to grab it on his way out?

I mean, if he had gotten the book out, the detective wouldn't have ever suspected anything. If someone like this guy was able to see through the suicide farce in a couple of minutes, I doubt Lunge or any other competent guy would have much trouble.

Just a bit strange since Johan is portrayed as being incredibly brilliant.

hooliganj · 2004-11-04, 02:48

You are making the dangerous assumption that Johan was in the room when the guy hung himself. As far as I'm willing to speculate on the evidence presented in the anime, Johan never went to Farren's room, and I further doubt that they would meet up anywhere at the college. It would produce too many credible witnesses.

avmoghe · 2004-11-04, 03:41

As I said above, if he used a henchman kill Karl, then he could've just asked the henchman himself to grab the book.

Crowley · 2004-11-04, 04:23

He could have, but why bother? We know that Farren read latin to Schuwald, and he certainly would have been studying latin to know it that well. He would have had a number of latin books. It's safe to assume that the book was not out of place in the room, just on that particular shelf. It could easily have belonged to Farren himself. Any cop investigating a suicide wouldn't give it a second glance.
Johan had no reason to suspect that a PI, Richard, would be looking around the room with anything more in mind than the suicide.

Oh, meant to comment on this in the first post:

Quote:

The only real complaint about this episode is Johan walking on the edge. That seemed to just be thrown in for melodramatic effect.

Oddly enough, this behavior does come up again. I don't think that really spoils anything....

hooliganj · 2004-11-04, 13:01

There's something to be said for the theory that he wants there to be a trail to follow, although Richard isn't the one he wants to follow it. Obviously, it's for Tenma or Anna to find, and I think he would enjoy the game that played out if Karl or Lotte were to stumble onto it, but outsiders aren't welcome.

And yeah, Johan loves to go in for the melodramatic presentation, it's one of his patently human quirks. I love it when he does it. It's definately not a reason to complain.

Ri_ · 2004-11-04, 13:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by hooliganj

And yeah, Johan loves to go in for the melodramatic presentation, it's one of his patently human quirks. I love it when he does it. It's definately not a reason to complain.

Oh yeah, the authour of the story loves to put in little surprise elements like that. They way everyone in the story was going on about Johan being absolute evil and all, in this roof scene where you first get to see him converse casually, without being hidden in dark dark shadows, I was constantly expecting him to throw Karl off the roof or something, like when he helped him up on to the roof and when he reached out to him. Which of course make the tears even more unexpected. Oh, drama.

avmoghe · 2004-11-05, 01:29

I just watched the scene again. Its pretty clear that he walked across the whole shelf. He didn't notice any Latin books anywhere else. The fact that he found it odd, by ifself, is enough to show that it really was odd for him to have that book there.

He knew Farren was a latin reader, and yet he found that it stuck out. I don't see why any regular police detective wouldn't manage to do the same. I mean I certainly assume that the police investigated the possibility that the suicide was really a murder. I doubt the police would blindly assume it was a suicide just because of the not. Johan was really lucky that a regular police officer didn't notice it.

If the book was really taken out, then Johan would've definitely gotten away scot free. Leaving the book in is a risk he took... one that couldve been avoided.

As for walking on the edge, I like nothing about it. Granted Johan isn't exactly sane, the scene just looks like its thrown in to make Johan look cool, or for dramatic effect. I doubt there really is a reason that Johan likes to walk on the edge like that. Its like something I would expect from a hollywood movie.

hooliganj · 2004-11-05, 01:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by avmoghe

As for walking on the edge, I like nothing about it. Granted Johan isn't exactly sane, the scene just looks like its thrown in to make Johan look cool, or for dramatic effect. I doubt there really is a reason that Johan likes to walk on the edge like that. Its like something I would expect from a hollywood movie.

Once again, I have to say that it's the sort of thing that is done in service to the narrative. Johan walks on the edge because it makes the scene cooler. It's as simple as that. I am more than aware that you dislike anything this show does for reasons of drama or character development, but this is minor. I mean really small. Tiny, miniscule, even itsy-bitsy. Move past it, please.

avmoghe · 2004-11-05, 01:55

Of course, I will move past it. Don't worry about that

You must realize I scrutinize this show far more closely than any other since I have higher expectations of it. I wont be hung up on something this minor and let it ruin the rest of the show for me.

Crowley · 2004-11-05, 03:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by avmoghe

He knew Farren was a latin reader, and yet he found that it stuck out. I don't see why any regular police detective wouldn't manage to do the same.

I don't have the episode handy, and I could be remembering something that was in the manga and got left out of the anime, but I'm pretty sure he noticed it because it didn't relate to the books in the immediate vicinity. They were history and it was latin, or some such thing. We do not know that there were no other latin books in the room, and to assume so would be incorrect because there is nothing to support the assumption. However, assuming that he would have latin books is perfectly valid given that he's taking the course and that he was reading to Schuwald. We also know that Karl kept latin books, and they would both have the same need for books. It's what students do.

Quote:

I mean I certainly assume that the police investigated the possibility that the suicide was really a murder.

Of course they would, but besides the book where's the indication that it was a murder? There was a suicide note, and there were no indications of foul play. With all the evidence pointing towards suicide, and none for murder, there would be no perceived need to pick apart his room and compare the books on his shelf. Even then, the simplest explanation is that the book was misplaced. Again, no reason for a police investigator to go through the book page by page.
The saving grace of the story is that Richard is not just a crime scene investigator, he's a paid private investigator. He was hired specifically to look into these people. This would be his highest priority job at the time, and being paid privately, he would be inclined to investigate every little tiny thing, even books misplaced on a shelf.
To the point, everything was in Johan's favour. Even if they had found the book, and looked for any other evidence of a murder, there is nothing shown to us to indicate that Johan would need to pay any special attention to the book. Even with the book there was no further evidence of foul play, and, most importantly, nothing to connect Johan with the event. The book is a very minor concern for Johan. If he had known that there was a PI dedicated to investigating people connected with Schuwald I'm sure he would have done something about the book, but there was no reason for Johan, with what limited information he had, to bother removing the book.

avmoghe · 2004-11-05, 16:39

I suggest watching the episode then. He went across the whole bookshelf from end to end. The way its portrayed in the anime, its pretty clear that it was the only Latin book on the shelf. The PI knew himself that he was a latin reader, and yet he didn't expect to run into a Latin book there. Even AFTER knowing that he was a latin reader, he still felt the need to inspect the out of place book.

I dont know about you, but if I was an investigating officer, I certainly would inspect an out of place book very carefully. I would've definitely flipped through the book which "there was no reason for a philosophy major to have". I couldn't have just ignored it. If someone like Lunge who pays meticulous attention to detail came along, would they not have went throught the book? A minor clue like that (a misplaced book, a misplaced chair, just about anything out of place) can completely turn the investigation around. It doesn't matter that the book doesn't directly connect Johan to the murder. Johan is trying to hide the fact a murder was committed to begin with.

Johan has nothing to gain by leaving the book there. All it can possibly do is increase the chance that he will get discovered. Why not simply remove the book, which he is perfectly capable of doing with ease, and thus guarantee that he won't be caught? Are you telling me it wouldn't have been more prudent to eliminate the possibility that some detective flips through the out of place book? Why not make the plan fail-proof when he can do it so easily?

hooliganj · 2004-11-05, 16:52

It would be more suspicious if the book were removed and later found by the police, with that line underlined, and if it were discovered in Johan or Schuwald's possession, it would serve as proof that they were involved. The only other way to do it would be to remove the book and destroy it, but there really isn't any reason to do that. A book in Latin is at home among brothers on the shelf of a philosophy major, it's only by chance that Richard found it out of place.

Crowley · 2004-11-06, 05:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by avmoghe

I suggest watching the episode then. He went across the whole bookshelf from end to end. The way its portrayed in the anime, its pretty clear that it was the only Latin book on the shelf. The PI knew himself that he was a latin reader, and yet he didn't expect to run into a Latin book there. Even AFTER knowing that he was a latin reader, he still felt the need to inspect the out of place book.

Yes, the whole shelf, that's the point; there's a whole bookcase, not just one shelf.
As I already mentioned, Richard is being paid to look into every detail, no matter how insignificant. He's not an average investigator, he has a career's worth of experience and more dedication to the single case than any regular cop would. We know for a fact that the actual police do not care, he talks to his old colleague about the case. Johan didn't know about Richard, he had no reason to take extra precautions.

Quote:

Johan has nothing to gain by leaving the book there. All it can possibly do is increase the chance that he will get discovered. Why not simply remove the book, which he is perfectly capable of doing with ease, and thus guarantee that he won't be caught?

Because you're wrong, it's impossible for the book to connect Farren to Johan. It could raise some general suspicions, but with no further evidence of any kind, there is no risk to Johan. The real risk would be to retrieve the book. Obviously if he went himself he could be seen, and there's a chance that anyone else sent for it could also be traced to him. Let's see, two options: leave it, or retrieve it, zero risk, and possible identification and implication.

avmoghe · 2004-11-06, 12:49

Quote:

Yes, the whole shelf, that's the point; there's a whole bookcase, not just one shelf.
As I already mentioned, Richard is being paid to look into every detail, no matter how insignificant. He's not an average investigator, he has a career's worth of experience and more dedication to the single case than any regular cop would. We know for a fact that the actual police do not care, he talks to his old colleague about the case. Johan didn't know about Richard, he had no reason to take extra precautions.

You're missing the whole point. A good detective investigating the suicide DOES look at every detail no matter how insignificant. It IS the detective's job, when he is investigating whether or not its a murder or a suicide to look for such oddities. A regular detective SHOULD have noticed it. The book case is a part of the (possible) crime scene. Its about 2 feet from where the body was found. Inspecting the bookshelf isn't a looking into obscure details of Farren's life. Its inspecting the crime scene to look for oddities or clues. Are you trying to tell me it is not the job of a good detective to even look closely at a bookshelf 2 feet away from the body? I dont buy it... not for a second.

Johan was just plain lucky here. The case was given to a guy nicknamed "slowpoke Martin" or something like that. If a good detective like Richard himself (when he was on the force), or Lunge were assigned, they certainly would've bothered to inspect the bookcase.

Quote:

Because you're wrong, it's impossible for the book to connect Farren to Johan. It could raise some general suspicions, but with no further evidence of any kind, there is no risk to Johan. The real risk would be to retrieve the book. Obviously if he went himself he could be seen, and there's a chance that anyone else sent for it could also be traced to him. Let's see, two options: leave it, or retrieve it, zero risk, and possible identification and implication.

I just addressed this above. Johan's objective isn't solely to get away, his objective is also to hide the fact that a murder has been committed. He went to great lengths to disguise the fact that it was a murder. He failed.

The reaon for his failure? Not removing the book! Something which he could've done with ease. Why not guarantee that fact that it was a murder wont ever be discovered? Why not guarantee that there won't be a single indication of foul play? And most importantly, why not guarantee the above, when he can do so with incredible ease?

He has failed at hiding the fact that a murder was committed. And he has no one to blame but himself for it.

hooliganj · 2004-11-06, 13:20

Quote:

He has failed at hiding the fact that a murder was committed. And he has no one to blame but himself for it.

What makes you think he was trying to make it look like a suicide, or even if he cares that there is evidence of a murder at the scene?

Spoiler for the next couple of episodes, even if they've already aired:

avmoghe · 2004-11-06, 14:32

The fact that he asked Farren to translate the particular line in the book.

"I cannot deceive him anymore".

Farren translated that particular line in his own handwriting (as we are told by the police).

If Johan is not trying to hide the fact that a murder has been committed, why bother asking him to translate that line?

Or are you trying to say that it was just a coincidence and someone else happened to ask Farren to translate that very line?

2004-10-28, 17:57	Link #1
hooliganj Team Player Join Date: Apr 2004	Episode 26 - The Secret Forest For the sake of consistancy, here's an official thread for episode 26. I like both of the characters introduced here, the P.I. and the old pshychologist. And an honest approach to a recovering alchoholic character is always interesting to follow. It makes me root for the guy, because I know he's battling his demons, one day at a time. Also, somehow, the image of Johan surrounded by young children is the creepiest one yet.

2004-10-29, 07:31	Link #2
Mitsukage Junior Member Join Date: Aug 2004	I agree that part where it showes Johan with bunch of kids, it's just plain freaky. However, I've got a question regarding that part. Spoiler for episode 26: What is Johan's purpose on that matter? He says something about a "project" that he is working on. Does he really enjoy doing that? Or it's just his another "experiment" on humans? Or, for a twisted reason, just to show others that he is a good guy who cares about others, especially orphans who don't have their parents? That part really drew me some questions marks.

2004-11-03, 23:11	Link #3
avmoghe Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2004	Hmm... Not quite sure what to make of this episode. It was interesting.. but confusing. 1.) Why is Johan crying? My best guess is that he's trying to recruit Karl for muder? That is the only possible explanation I can think of. 2.) Why did Johan leave the book in the room. The book stood out. Why not just take the book after the suicide. Now his little game has been discovered. Is he trying to get caught? 3.) What possible motive does Johan have in rejuvenating the old guy. I can't come up with anything here. If he wanted to he could've done it himself many times before Karl and Lotte suggested it. Something very strange going on. Guess we'll see soon enough. The only real complaint about this episode is Johan walking on the edge. That seemed to just be thrown in for melodramatic effect.

2004-11-04, 01:54	Link #5
avmoghe Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2004	Yup, I understand that the note was supposed to deflect attention. What I don't understand is leaving the book there. Why not just grab it on the way out after killing him? He doesn't have to go back into the room. If he used someone else to do the dirty work, why not ask the henchman to grab it on his way out? I mean, if he had gotten the book out, the detective wouldn't have ever suspected anything. If someone like this guy was able to see through the suicide farce in a couple of minutes, I doubt Lunge or any other competent guy would have much trouble. Just a bit strange since Johan is portrayed as being incredibly brilliant.

2004-11-04, 02:48	Link #6
hooliganj Team Player Join Date: Apr 2004	You are making the dangerous assumption that Johan was in the room when the guy hung himself. As far as I'm willing to speculate on the evidence presented in the anime, Johan never went to Farren's room, and I further doubt that they would meet up anywhere at the college. It would produce too many credible witnesses.

2004-11-04, 03:41	Link #7
avmoghe Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2004	As I said above, if he used a henchman kill Karl, then he could've just asked the henchman himself to grab the book.

2004-11-04, 13:01	Link #9
hooliganj Team Player Join Date: Apr 2004	There's something to be said for the theory that he wants there to be a trail to follow, although Richard isn't the one he wants to follow it. Obviously, it's for Tenma or Anna to find, and I think he would enjoy the game that played out if Karl or Lotte were to stumble onto it, but outsiders aren't welcome. And yeah, Johan loves to go in for the melodramatic presentation, it's one of his patently human quirks. I love it when he does it. It's definately not a reason to complain.

2004-11-05, 01:29	Link #11
avmoghe Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2004	I just watched the scene again. Its pretty clear that he walked across the whole shelf. He didn't notice any Latin books anywhere else. The fact that he found it odd, by ifself, is enough to show that it really was odd for him to have that book there. He knew Farren was a latin reader, and yet he found that it stuck out. I don't see why any regular police detective wouldn't manage to do the same. I mean I certainly assume that the police investigated the possibility that the suicide was really a murder. I doubt the police would blindly assume it was a suicide just because of the not. Johan was really lucky that a regular police officer didn't notice it. If the book was really taken out, then Johan would've definitely gotten away scot free. Leaving the book in is a risk he took... one that couldve been avoided. As for walking on the edge, I like nothing about it. Granted Johan isn't exactly sane, the scene just looks like its thrown in to make Johan look cool, or for dramatic effect. I doubt there really is a reason that Johan likes to walk on the edge like that. Its like something I would expect from a hollywood movie.

2004-11-05, 01:55	Link #13
avmoghe Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2004	Of course, I will move past it. Don't worry about that You must realize I scrutinize this show far more closely than any other since I have higher expectations of it. I wont be hung up on something this minor and let it ruin the rest of the show for me.

2004-11-05, 16:39	Link #15
avmoghe Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2004	I suggest watching the episode then. He went across the whole bookshelf from end to end. The way its portrayed in the anime, its pretty clear that it was the only Latin book on the shelf. The PI knew himself that he was a latin reader, and yet he didn't expect to run into a Latin book there. Even AFTER knowing that he was a latin reader, he still felt the need to inspect the out of place book. I dont know about you, but if I was an investigating officer, I certainly would inspect an out of place book very carefully. I would've definitely flipped through the book which "there was no reason for a philosophy major to have". I couldn't have just ignored it. If someone like Lunge who pays meticulous attention to detail came along, would they not have went throught the book? A minor clue like that (a misplaced book, a misplaced chair, just about anything out of place) can completely turn the investigation around. It doesn't matter that the book doesn't directly connect Johan to the murder. Johan is trying to hide the fact a murder was committed to begin with. Johan has nothing to gain by leaving the book there. All it can possibly do is increase the chance that he will get discovered. Why not simply remove the book, which he is perfectly capable of doing with ease, and thus guarantee that he won't be caught? Are you telling me it wouldn't have been more prudent to eliminate the possibility that some detective flips through the out of place book? Why not make the plan fail-proof when he can do it so easily?

2004-11-05, 16:52	Link #16
hooliganj Team Player Join Date: Apr 2004	It would be more suspicious if the book were removed and later found by the police, with that line underlined, and if it were discovered in Johan or Schuwald's possession, it would serve as proof that they were involved. The only other way to do it would be to remove the book and destroy it, but there really isn't any reason to do that. A book in Latin is at home among brothers on the shelf of a philosophy major, it's only by chance that Richard found it out of place.

2004-11-06, 14:32	Link #20
avmoghe Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2004	The fact that he asked Farren to translate the particular line in the book. "I cannot deceive him anymore". Farren translated that particular line in his own handwriting (as we are told by the police). If Johan is not trying to hide the fact that a murder has been committed, why bother asking him to translate that line? Or are you trying to say that it was just a coincidence and someone else happened to ask Farren to translate that very line?