(L+CR) Chihayafuru

[GundamZZ]

Originally Posted by hai_san

Beautiful 23th EP, finaly Taichi admit he is is in love with Chihaya, well it was obvious from the beginning but still it is the first time he said it so himself. While Chihaya clearly has strong feeling towards Arato, but we still have to see in which way it will developes.

Apparently, the creator is having fun from making Taichi suffer. From the current trend, it's not the end.

Taichi:
I know how it feels,
but my words won't be able to reach her.
Only Arata can help her.

Chihaya:
You have to go watch Dr. Harada and Sudo-san play!
Next year, they'll be your rivals in Class A!
You have to go watch them play, not cheer them on!
Sorry!
Let's go! Taichi.

Taichi:
Ah...I can't help it...I'm in love with Chihaya.

Chihaya is S. Taichi is M.

[Undertaker]

I find it interesting that the anime cut off all the part about Suo Meijin. with 2-3 episodes left I really interested in where the anime would use as the break point.

Originally Posted by Forsaken_Infinity

A competitive sports is war. And you should be doing everything that makes it easier for you to win. Adhering to arbitrary standards of fair play bla bla is just finding excuses for weaknesses.

...snip...


Chihaya ran after the cards that were most definitely not hers. Yumin contested for cards on close calls with confidence that they were hers. She couldn't have known it with certainty but she contested it anyway. And here you are, claiming that Yumin was in the wrong for contesting the calls while you let it slide that Chihaya picked up cards that were definitely not hers while lacking the confidence to even contest for them. That's what I am getting at.

Completely agree here.

IMO, all author wanted to show is that there are many ways to win in Karuta. Even if you lack the hearing or speed or pure-technique, there are still other ways to beat your opponent.

Karuta's rule states that if the card in doubt, the competitors need to figure them out themselves. There is nothing wrong with Yumin arguing on technicality.

She seals it because it was intrusive to other competitors and isn't elegant for someone with Queen's title. But there is nothing wrong with it. Karuta don't have instant replays or reviews so if Chihaya is unwilling to counter argue her stance it's her own fault.

Heck, even if Yumin is full of BS The simple fact that Chihaya gave up her right to argue is a win for Yumin.

The unspoken rule in sport and the one thing coaches always teach first is that "if the ref didn't see it, it's not a foul."

And Yumin didn't even break any rules to begin with.

Besides as Forsaken said, Chihaya did the exactly thing a while ago and hers was a complete lie and that was what Harada sensei specifically taught her and he already mentioned that most players knew exactly what happens with the card anyway.

So if Yumin really did get into a situation where the card isn't hers, her opponent would stand up for their own card. The fact that Chihaya didn't is her own mistake.

I mean, as Yumin is arguing, the game of Karuta is about who touches it first, not who slapped away the card first.

[Anh_Minh]

Originally Posted by Forsaken_Infinity

A sports becomes sports not by people upholding the virtues and the beauty of the game but by playing to win, doing all that is within reach and allowed to win. Casual play is what needs sportsmanship. Competitive play is what needs rules, referees and a strong self-confidence in the players.

Except there aren't referees in karuta. Not in a practical sense.

In that sense, Thierry Henry played just as he was supposed to. It wasn't sportsmanship in the sense of admitting to faults but it was sportsmanship in the sense of doing what he can to win. You can argue as to which of the two is more respectful to the sports but as far as competitive play goes, its the latter that matters more. Not only because it shows how much the player wanted to win but also because it draws attention to the sports, something that the sports relies on in order to grow and survive.

Soccer doesn't really need more attention. The "attention" it got was a clamor to change the refereeing rules to use cameras.

But with regards to Karuta, which is a much different game from football, and has different standards for ruling, it is even more imperative that a player contest all close calls. Because if your opponent isn't even confident enough to argue back that he or she got the card and not you, there is no reason to let them have it. And no, it wouldn't lead to an infinite loop of bickering. There is a clear rule that says that if the players can't come to an agreement, the card goes to the player whose side the card was on.

And I think you're belittling Karuta and all the other competitive sports out there that don't have much if any to the fiscal side of the story, by implying that money is what turns a game competitive. It's not. It's the other way around. A game that's competitive and emotional is more likely to catch popular imagination and thus create an intake for financial investment. What matters isn't how much money is on the line - although it certainly helps to have more money than less or none - but how much you wish to win..

I'm saying you can play for money, and thus be forgiven for doing whatever you can get away with, or you can play for the beauty of the sport, and then cheating actually becomes counterproductive.

The beauty of Karuta with its poems and all that isn't something people that are competing at the A level give the slightest damn about. The show itself notes that. It is a competitive sports and trying to appease the crowd with arbitrary standards of sportsmanship which could hurt your play is nothing but a testimony to the weak will of the player. Yumin recognizes this during the match and decides to shed off the facade of grace that she had forced onto herself, that thing that was stopping her from playing her game, from enjoying that sports that she loves dearly. I don't see anything wrong with that whatsoever. Rather, I congratulate her. And any player that manages to get into that mentality in any sports.


A competitive sports is war. And you should be doing everything that makes it easier for you to win. Adhering to arbitrary standards of fair play bla bla is just finding excuses for weaknesses.


Why is it commented upon? Because she does it more often than most people bother to. Why is that a good thing? Because it means she truly cares and tries her best to win. Why is she unusual? Because she is good but still does this thing that most people are uncomfortable doing. People are just jealous of her skills and in their quest to find a flaw with her play, they found this one thing that she does more often than normal - and I bet not all that more often either - and they harped on it till it became legendary. It happens with everybody. With success comes hate. People will try their very fucking best to try and gloat on something a successful player does that's somewhat out of the ordinary.

Except it's not "jealous rivals" who do that. It's Nishida, who likes and admires her.

And why does it matter if there are any close cards that she thinks go to her opponent? She can contest it all the same. What matters isn't whether she thinks the card should go to her opponent but if her opponent thinks the same. If the opponent doesn't have the confidence to claim so, then she gets the card. And I doubt she can just claim any call either. She can only claim really close calls. And as implied by Chihaya's cluelessness with both the calls in the episode, the players themselves can't entirely be sure. So the best a player can do is believe in themselves and contest.

Which, as I said, turns the game away from memory, speed, and tactics... and into bullshit contests.

That doesn't change the fact that you are being pretentious and disrespectful when you assume that she is cheating or acting in disgrace when there is no proof. When there is no proof that someone's cheating, the best thing to do is to shut up and observe more. In this particular case, there was definite proof as to Yumin's sincerity. But that does indeed not matter. Because if things were left ambiguous, Yumin would still win and all of you who are hating on her just because she makes you uncomfortable would be nothing but jealous haters or pretentious bastards that have never been truly passionate about anything. If you don't like my calling you that with as little as your posts here as evidence, then please realize that you have even less to work with when you hypothesize that Yumin plays dishonestly.

Be consistent. Call it "being sincere and passionate". Because that's exactly what you recommend: assume the other is cheating whenever he goes after a card that was close.

Chihaya ran after the cards that were most definitely not hers. Yumin contested for cards on close calls with confidence that they were hers. She couldn't have known it with certainty but she contested it anyway. And here you are, claiming that Yumin was in the wrong for contesting the calls while you let it slide that Chihaya picked up cards that were definitely not hers while lacking the confidence to even contest for them. That's what I am getting at.

That's a good point, but do try to look at it from my POV. Chihaya didn't try to cheat: she went after her first impression, that she got to the cards first. And then Yumin overwrote that memory, which is actually very easy to do. IRL, we'd never know the truth.

On their own those two calls mean nothing, especially as they were actually right. But if there really is a pattern, then that says ugly things about Yumin, and about karuta.

[Yume Hanabi]

Sorry if it's already been asked.

Manga readers, how many volumes has the anime covered so far? Do we still have enough material for a second season to come soon, or will we have to wait a few years? (Assuming they'll make a second season...)

[Undertaker]

It's a bi-weekly manga (twice a month)

currently in middle of V8 or to be more precise, in the middle of chapter 45. V16 is due out nex month and the latest chapter I believe is chapter 90.

Second season seem unlikely based on rating, DVD/BD sales, and the manga sale increases.


BTW, just as a foot note, the series had been pretty much on a pace of 1.5-2 chapters per episode, but for episode 21 and 22 it spend close to 6 chapters.

[Blaat]

Originally Posted by Undertaker

BTW, just as a foot note, the series had been pretty much on a pace of 1.5-2 chapters per episode, but for episode 21 and 22 it spend close to 6 chapters.

You could really notice that in the last episode, at this point I'm guessing they're rushing through to have the show end at the start of the new school year similar to Bamboo Blade.

[hai_san]

Originally Posted by Undertaker

Second season seem unlikely based on rating, DVD/BD sales, and the manga sale increases.

ouch i had hope that there will be a 2nd season, for once i find the anime adaption excellence, even better than the manga, because atmosphere/feeling is better delivered than in the manga in my opinion, and the music is just great.

[Undertaker]

It's not impassible, just unlikely.

The rating is slightly above average (it matters because this is in mid-night slot and not late night). The sales is also slightly above average. The manga, while a hit at around 200-250K for new volumes didn't really got much of a sales boost the way Kimi ni Todoke or Nodame did. It pretty much go from a 150-200K series to 200-250K series, so an 2nd season would be tricky unless they run out of hit shojo series to adapt.

Although onething to to be said is that is it still out-sells most of other shojo/josei hits like Yamato Nadeshico, Skip Beat, Otomen, and the like. The only shojo/josei title that are really on top of it are the two huge hits in Kimi ni Todoke (a million seller) and Kaicho wa Maid-sama. (400-500k)

Originally Posted by Blaat

You could really notice that in the last episode, at this point I'm guessing they're rushing through to have the show end at the start of the new school year similar to Bamboo Blade.

That's my guess as well considering the stuff they skipped and the pacing of past few episodes.

[totoum]

MAL posted this article

Apparently it says that NTV originally was hoping to have chihayafuru be a daytime anime but couldn't find a sponsor.

[Kazu-kun]

Originally Posted by totoum

Apparently it says that NTV originally was hoping to have chihayafuru be a daytime anime but couldn't find a sponsor.

Now that I think about it, it probably would have been a bit more successful as a daytime anime. Otaku just don't like this show, but I think the characters are cool enough to attract a segment of the young (non-otaku) daytime audience.

[hyperborealis]

In the Tanabata legend, Orihime and Hikoboshi are represented in the sky by the stars Vega and Altair, with the Milky Way as the river which separates the two lovers. Keetz, a poster over at MAL, points out something very interesting. When Arata returns home in the evening after playing his matches, he looks up into the night sky and sees--yes, that's right--Vega and Altair hanging in the sky above him. Here's the link to Keetz's post, complete with star maps and a still from the anime.

To be more precise, Arata sees the asterism (a star formation that is not a constellation) known as the Summer Triangle, formed by Vega, Altair, and Deneb. Here's a spectacular picture, which in spatial terms corresponds reasonably closely to what Arata sees.

Given that Chihaya and Arata have Vega and Altair, it's hard not to think of that third star, Deneb, as Taichi. The animators are making a sly joke to tell us that Chihayafuru's love triangle is literally written in the stars

[karice67]

^
The poem was used in the manga too, though the glimpse of the stars was definitely an addition by the animators - so, great catch by Keetz!

Originally Posted by totoum

MAL posted this article

Apparently it says that NTV originally was hoping to have chihayafuru be a daytime anime but couldn't find a sponsor.

Hm...I don't think it's saying quite that. (NB: the anime that get daytime slots are the super-popular kids shows like Naruto, Bleach and One Piece, the family ones like Sazae-san, or otherwise have a group of sponsors that can afford the prime-time anime slots).

More like, it's talking about how NTV supports what it considers to be 'good titles' in its late night spot (works like Berserk, Master Keaton, DEATH NOTE - titles that would not be out of place in the seasonal drama line-up). These kinds of works are in a middle ground - not like the anime that are for 'heavy fans' (濃いファン), but also not generating the same amount of interest as a prime-time drama. Hence, even though Chihayafuru wasn't able to find any sponsors, NTV is supporting it.

[Dop]

Originally Posted by karice67

Hence, even though Chihayafuru wasn't able to find any sponsors, NTV is supporting it.

We can only hope they support it for a second season, we need more high quality shows like Chihayafuru in this world to show how good anime can really be when it tries.

[Undertaker]

Personally I find that a live action adaption would be more likely then a second season.

Then if the drama or movie took off then second season will follow.

[Guardian Enzo]

Great, Chihaya played by a menopausal actress and Taichi and Arata's actors needing time off for prostate exams...

[Utsuro no Hako]

Originally Posted by Guardian Enzo

Great, Chihaya played by a menopausal actress and Taichi and Arata's actors needing time off for prostate exams...

Hmm, my reaction was to imagine something like the live-action Ouran Highschool Host Club. I'm not sure which version would be worse.

[Undertaker]

A bit off topic, but Ouran High drama is actually pretty good, much better than the anime adaption IMO.

Chihayafuru is the type of series I think would translate well into an live action as long as the script and cast are solid (the two main keys for adaption)

There are tons of manga based drama that are fairly good in past couple year to the point that it seems now that every season there's always 3-4 drama based off manga. Many like Jin, Bloody Monday, Urameya Honpo, Nodame, Yokai Ningen Bem, to even Detective Conan (the first two specials) and Ranma had all done a decent enough job in pulling it off. By comparison, Chihayafuru's setting really isn't that hard.

[smokeesid]

I am going to start watching the series so can anyone tell me which subbing group is better?

Horriblesubs or saitei or any other one?

EDIT

There is commie subs too and some more I saw in myanimelist. I also saw the comments some people have given but I can not figure out from it. A group with better translation

[Forsaken_Infinity]

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

Except there aren't referees in karuta. Not in a practical sense.

There is a rule to govern disputes. More than enough.

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

Soccer doesn't really need more attention. The "attention" it got was a clamor to change the refereeing rules to use cameras.

Soccer indeed doesn't need more attention because it's already the most popular sport on the planet. But these plays are what will capture people's imagination for ages to come and cement the players' name in the history of the sports. "Hand of God", for instance. I don't really care either which way. My point was that having drama actually benefits a sports and not hurt it. Iconic players, especially the ones that are easy to hate for the masses, help a sports grow than hurt it. So long as they do have actual skills to back them up and Yumin certainly does have them.

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

I'm saying you can play for money, and thus be forgiven for doing whatever you can get away with, or you can play for the beauty of the sport, and then cheating actually becomes counterproductive.

And that's where I am saying you are looking down on all the competitive sports that don't have much or any money involved. Don't underestimate the emotions and the passion involved in such sports. Money is not the cause but the result of passion in competitive play. And cheating just because money is involved isn't any more forgivable than cheating to win because you want to win.

But I despise cheating of all forms and Yumin wasn't cheating there anyway. Taking advantage of ambiguous rules isn't exactly cheating and I fully expect a good player to exploit such loopholes. That's what separates the elite from the green.

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

Except it's not "jealous rivals" who do that. It's Nishida, who likes and admires her.

All he did was mention how she is very well known for her fierce stance in close calls. He didn't even remotely imply that she cheats. Think about it logically. Yumin can't possibly have become the queen just because she contests close calls more often than average. If a player of her caliber does something somewhat unusual, it's bound to be played out of proportion. And when it gets famous enough to be the defining characteristic of a player's play, even allies will refer to it. Especially if the ally recognizes that she has regained her confidence to be able to withstand the pressure again.

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

Which, as I said, turns the game away from memory, speed, and tactics... and into bullshit contests.

A close call is such because it was close. There can't be too many of those during a match. Lying about having won a close call is really hard shit to pull off. As a player, you contest it if you believe you deserved the card and not the opponent. The opponent can either agree with you or disagree and let the rule decide. Just because a famous player got some flak for being a little too stubborn doesn't mean the occurrence is common or that it decides the game more than the mechanics that actually matter.

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

Be consistent. Call it "being sincere and passionate". Because that's exactly what you recommend: assume the other is cheating whenever he goes after a card that was close.

Nope. I recommend contesting a call if you have any semblance of a reason to believe you got the card first. And I believe that's what Yumin did. You're merely assuming that she also contests calls where she knows for sure that she didn't get the card. Not that I would look down on her if she does do so as long as it was a really close call and the opponent didn't have enough confidence to contest for themselves. The only scenario in which I would be disgusted would be if she blatantly lied about having touched a card that was on her side first and refused to give it up even if the other player, herself and whoever was watching knows full well that she didn't. But I have no reason to believe she does that crap.

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

That's a good point, but do try to look at it from my POV. Chihaya didn't try to cheat: she went after her first impression, that she got to the cards first. And then Yumin overwrote that memory, which is actually very easy to do. IRL, we'd never know the truth.

We'd never know the truth. But Chihaya could have been confident enough to stick to her claim if she were to run after cards like that. And by your logic, Yumin did what she had to as well. She had the impression that she touched the card first and that's what she claimed. Nothing wrong with that whatsoever.

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

On their own those two calls mean nothing, especially as they were actually right. But if there really is a pattern, then that says ugly things about Yumin, and about karuta.

They do mean something in that they conclusively prove that Yumin wasn't lying about either of those instances and we're thus to infer that she doesn't lie. I don't think there is a pattern whatsoever in that close calls where both the contestants are unsure about the clear victor are rare. And when it comes down to that, the more confident player really does deserve to win. The only ugly situation would be if someone consistently contested calls when the card was on their side. But every sport has something ugly like that. I don't see why it should be a big deal.

Also, I refuse to acknowledge your suggestion that Yumin is insincere about her calls to that degree and I honestly believe you are being unfair to her in assuming that much about her character when everything you were concretely shown showed otherwise.

Originally Posted by maplehurry

That's not necessarily true. It's not excuse for weakness as long as one doesn't whine about the loss while adhering to arbitrary standards of fair play.

Conceded. A player is free to adhere to arbitrary standards of fair play so long as they don't whine about how they lost because they were adhering to those standards.

[Undertaker]

If Soccer isn't a good example, then use baseball, basketball, or football (american) where there are phase of game that is completely judgement call.

There is nothing wrong in utilizing ambiguous rule as Forsaken said.

Heck, in tennis. There are plenty of players who screams as they returns the balls that their opponent consider as unfair advantage, but the act itself isn't breaking rules and is just part of the annoyance of the game.

Or signal-stealing. Again, it's not breaking rules and teams bitches about it when they found out the other team is doing it. But they, themselves does everything they can to steal other team's signal and is part of scouting report and information gathering.

Yumin just states what she believe is correct according to the rule, if anything she is extremely fair in her play to a fault, and that is what makes her annoying to her opponent.

If you follow american football, it's basically the "tuck rule" where what looks like a fumble is actually an incomplete pass by the definition of the rule.