2008-05-05, 13:39 | Link #24141 | ||
Loveable Jerk
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We also needs to consider what’s “fast” the fact is that given that we can see spells and track them in flight even over short distances there is a clear limit on how fast they can be moving unless we just totally ignore all visuals. As while the visuals may fluctuate a bit the spells are basiclly always visible and can be tracked in flight and so simply can’t be going THAT fast. The last bit is just nonsensical after all if the visual effects for the speed of the spell are apparently wrong why would the effects of its damage level be “right”? Never mind it’s totally unneeded anyway speed clearly has nothing to do with the striking power of a magic spell (as you’d expect) so this is no argument for high speeds being required at all IMO. Anyway I now feel I need to make clear I never meant to aruge that melee was impossible to use at all. I think that somewhere in the debate that fact got lost. Due to a number of factors in Nanoha melee is fairly viable (rather slow speed of spells being one of those factors), BUT despite that I still feel that even though Melee can work to some extent a ranged doctrine is a better approach for an army to take. As while it’s not overwhelmingly unbeatably superior it’s still superior in quite a number of situations and used competently as part of a combined arms team gains more advantage then melee dose. Again though melee isn't impossible I some(often)times think people gloss over the problems and challenges with it far too easily. They often seem to simply assume they WILL get into range and give little thought as to how that will be done and often frankly make ranged users act stupid to accomplish it in a story setting. I just see way to many instances where ranged users don’t evade or maneuver or anything and basiclly just let the melee guy rush them down or he shrugs off ranged attacks, but of coruse the ranged guys can’t shrug off HIS attacks and so on. It just seems like every fight has to end in a melee battle for some reason and that annoys me to some extent. Basiclly I’ve often felt the thread has a serious bent/hard on for melee and will gloss over its disadvantages while harping on any minor weakness to a ranged style. I mean just look at how everyone is damn near falling over themselves yelling about how bad Hayate need’s "melee skillz" and such. I still maintain she needs no such thing and that better barriers and improved speed would make her plenty viable and be much quicker to teach her. Acutally it appears that the entire thing was a pointless tangent because Keroko didn’t explain quite what he meant well enough at first. (and it was late and maybe I didn’t read it as well as I should have) Which dosen't mean any of this is true just that it's not realvent at the moment.
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2008-05-05, 16:09 | Link #24142 | |
Adeptus Animus
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Join Date: Jan 2007
Age: 36
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I have always held these standpoints, Tk. During the many discussions I have repeatedly told them. Perhaps not all at once, but I certainly have told every one of them.
Anyway, you say speed tends to fluctuate within certain limits. However, the differences in melee combat are decicively larger then the ones in ranged combat, there is no 'bit' faster, the gap is huge. We probably should adress this too, because the impact of this also effects some of the ranged scenes we see. When you say 'speed has nothing to do with striking damage of a magic spell' you confuse me though... are you saying physics don't matter anymore? Strange, concidering you've been a supporter of them all along. I mean, I basically put in that point under the assumption that if animation equals the truth, then it should matter because it defies physics. Concidering the aproach of melee versus range, yes, true in many parts. However, you have nobody to blame but yourself for the 'melee can shrug of ranged, but ranged can't shrug of melee' part because it was you who said that Barrier Jackets were hardly effective against melee weapons, while more effective against magic attacks. As for Hayate, there are many reasons behind this. First is her weapon, which is blatantly called 'sword cross.' That kinda creates expectations of melee battle. Secondly, its because Hayate is the sole combatant with this weakness. Even her fellow ranged expert Nanoha can match up with Vita in melee, why must Hayate be the only one not able to? Finally, and most important to me, most combat in Nanoha that actually matters for plot or character development takes place in melee. Hayate is unable to fight in melee, which places Hayate where? You guessed it. The shaft seat. With Hayate not able to fight in melee, her chances of being actively involved in the important battles becomes rather slim, concidering the style of combat/story the series displays. Finally, there was one bit in your post that severely irked me: Quote:
Last I checked, the only spell that was canonically labeled a homing spell was Barret F. Which was seen once, and fired by only one character. Also, going by the visuals the spell was hardly any faster then any of the other spells we have seen in the series. To turn this into 'huge parts of Mid's arsenal' and 'conciderably faster' is plainly ridiculous and completely contradicting everything you said after that. |
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2008-05-05, 16:15 | Link #24143 | |
He Who Smites Shippers
Join Date: Mar 2008
Age: 36
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2008-05-05, 16:26 | Link #24144 | |
Adeptus Animus
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Join Date: Jan 2007
Age: 36
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Nevermind, I made a mistake >_< Schwalbe Fliegen does have homing abillities. Anyway, it just ticked me of that Tk turned the existence of one homing spell immediately into 'Mid has an entire arsenal of homing spells that are waaaay faster then other spells' I'm not denying that it opens roads, but that's exactly what he was talking me down for for doing, disagree and pointing out why my arguments are flawed, I'm perfectly cool with, but then to turn around and do the exact same thing ticks me off. Last edited by Keroko; 2008-05-06 at 02:18. |
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2008-05-05, 22:55 | Link #24145 |
Slash!
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Oxnard, CA
Age: 31
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Uhh....hey again...looks like you guys broke the 12k barrier...
Anyway...fake OP time! I got bored and wanted to do something else other than a chapter.... Here it is: Spoiler for SearcherS OP:
Spoiler for Reference:
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2008-05-06, 00:03 | Link #24146 | ||||||||||||||||||||
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Join Date: Jul 2007
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Keroko Backlog Breaker
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1) Flash Move can just last a little longer than we think it can. 2) There was indeed Time Manipulation. I don't have to remind you which one gets kept and which one gets shifted. Quote:
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Actually, I won't put it past them. But you shouldn't be so pleased about it, for reasons I'll explain below. Quote:
2) Using confrontational methods, the dictionary, by its admitted imperfect and "dialogue" nature, almost automatically loses. Quote:
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The problem is that from a analysis point of view, the time dimension of the slow scenes is much more fixed than those of the fast scenes (because Nanoverse characters jabber to each other so much). There will also be little point in having the devices talk if they really spend most of their time at the high speed - the time allowed to cast spells becomes so small. Just try this on for plausibility. Pho -- BAM -- ton -- BAM BAM BAM! Lan -- BAM -- BOOM KABOOM -- cer. Quote:
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Ahh, I finally see. You are arguing from a legalistic precedence point of view. And there I'll agree. There are definitely more slowdowns than speedups. There are two problems with this. 1) There are far more slow scenes than high speed scenes, and the slow scenes are far more detailed. Thus, favoring the speedy scenes will be to favor the minority of evidence. 2) VTL. As long as a scene is NOT timelocked with detailed sounds (read: voices), it may be freely time compressed or dilated without affecting its canonicity. After all, scenes do not lose their canonicity when the zoom (magnification) changes, and what is "Bullet Time" but a magnification for easier viewing in the time dimension? It does affect our ability to extract data, but a scene does not become non-canon just because it cannot be satisfactorily ranged (say b/c of an unknown zoom factor), so the same applies in the time dimension. 3) A scene that overtly breaks VTL, on the other hand, cannot be a representation (even a Increased Speed one) of reality. It is, by logical definition, a fake. It might be more fun to watch (fantasy is often more interesting than reality), but it is still a fake. Take the Clannad scene. The audience view is amusing, but ultimately, it is but a fake (as further proven by the fact that under close observation, the audience view is actually different, not just a slowed down version even if you ignore the audio). The spectator view is canon. As you can see, from an analytical point of view, the scene with voices always wins due to this basic principle of plausibility. Quote:
1) The round is heavier than we thought it was. 2) The target is more fragile than we thought it was. Quote:
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2008-05-06, 00:19 | Link #24147 | |
He Who Smites Shippers
Join Date: Mar 2008
Age: 36
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This particular scene makes it extremely difficult for me to figure a top speed for a speed-oriented character who is nonetheless much slower than Fate in SD. I know that she's supposed to be really freaking fast in SD, but from the animation she's obviously not even moving at her usual unboosted speed, making that scene one of the crappiest animation goofs in the entire series. So what do you do about something like this? Personally, I handwaved it and arbitrarily said Fate's top speed is somewhere south of Tensa Zangetsu. Anyone got a better figure that doesn't conform to the limitations of the "lol, laws of physics" group?
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2008-05-06, 02:56 | Link #24149 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Philippines
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*pops in*
Excuse me for my interruption. But several Cadians I've been talking with in IRC said that they'd prefer this discussion in the Magitech thread.:3 High discomfort ratings are rising even more. Please bear with them for now and transfer please.^^ *pops out* ... *pops back in* BTW, Keroko. I've got a short scenario to come later that you should be interested in. *pops out*
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2008-05-06, 05:26 | Link #24151 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Philippines
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Back on business...:3 =3 >3
The Divine Hammer of Inspiration strikes in most unexpected moments. And it just struck me a while ago. Here's the result Spoiler for Near Epilogue of GenerationS:
I hope I got Keroko-chan right! >< Anyways, this may or may not be part of GenerationS when it's nearing completion. But the chance is high. And I got to try characterizing Grandis for the first time properly. >:3 How was it?><
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2008-05-06, 06:25 | Link #24152 |
Truth Martyr
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Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Doing Anzu's paperwork.
Age: 38
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*henshins into AbareGoose*
For the last time, people. Take the tech crap to Magitech. The bumblebee flies through the sheer force of its will. In like manner as to how that story, no matter how cute, is in the end a silly fable, so is all the tech debating - it is in the end much silliness. Now, I'm going to give magitech the finger and go back to writing. Cadia is for charecters and writing and for suggesting concepts. You wanna hard scale shit, do it in magitech. @Aaron: Write more. With Lowe's temprary absence, you're the only purveyour of romance left. IT IS DELICIOUS GRAYATE YOU MUST WRITE IT. ...because I'm preparing Hayaurion crack. And also..... Spoiler for Delicious Cake!:
I would also like to remind everyone of Bellisario's Maxim: Don't examine this too closely. This maxim was formulated by producer Donald P Bellisario at an early-1990s SF convention in response to a persistent fan with very specific questions about the way things worked on Bellisario's series Quantum Leap. It is an unashamed admission of handwaving details unnecessary to the enjoyment of a show, and an exhortation to not let the obsession with those details get in the way of the story. Implicit in the Maxim is a request to understand that the story is being told by a small production team that due to the limitations of the medium has to work quickly, with limited budget and tight deadlines, and has to dodge Executive Meddling, all while trying to turn out the best product it can.
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2008-05-06, 09:07 | Link #24154 | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
~ I Do ~
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Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: In the XV-8A Spartan "00"
Age: 38
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MC 0074
Location Unknown Alas, I don't have the patience to wait for the OC thread to hit 80 pages before breaking backlog. As I lay dormant, the lackeys of the Holy Empire of Techtrolls are celebrating what they call a victory of what they call the working Mahou Shoujo Lyrical Nanoha... And the OC Thread has been lamblasted for turning the series into something completely different from the original, but while they seem sympathetic to our cause, those /b/tards have no understanding of Outer Cadia's true nature... Neither party knows what their deeds either in bringing in all these alien rules and regulations to Cadia, or slugging frivolous dismissals at our fair practices, are doing to our great nation! My time is drying up. My techniques have failed me. The Techtrolls may think that I have been defeated. That with Anita around I am no longer amongst the Khracky... But they are gravely, mistaken. The Bluecheesium and me are all that remains, but all that is necessary. For together we will raise a great army. Together we will show the Multiverse's downtrodden who the real enemy is. The Techtrolls promises us a workable and fair framework, but in the slums of Outer Cadia the homeless and hungry catgirls know the truth. They have been forgotten! THEY HAVE NOTHING! BUT! Their ANGER! We will take that spark and start a fire that will become A GREAT CONFLAGRATION! Peace! Through! PIZZA! [Commencing operation...] Quote:
Yes you will be of great use to me... Who doesn't? I actually Rebuilt the Fate timeline creating a second one where Saber stays instead of returning, and I think it's more fun than the original "canon" ending... Btw, in case you guys don't know, for the OC Thread, instead of the Fate timeline, the Canon timeline involves a modfied Heaven's End timeline with elements from Fate and Unlimited Blade Works. Hence KhaxFate being the "canon pairing". Quote:
Keikakudoori... Quote:
It's different yet the same. I'm still thinking of it, but CLANNAD is playing a heavy influence at the moment . Quote:
<.< Kha: Ikuze! Anita: Yosh! Both: TWIN RABU SHIFTTO! DAI HAATO PAAANCH!!! *sends Aaron flying past the moon* Quote:
(Keikakudoori...) Quote:
Explosive. Better out than in. Oh yes. Quote:
Mada, Mada! Quote:
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*salutes with respect* Quote:
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*RUNS AT THE LUDICRIOUS SPEED OF TIME* Quote:
I wouldn't settle for any less. :3 "The Pawn is out-performing the Knight, Cleric." "I don't want to hear that coming from an immortal witch." "Hmph. " Come on, all of Mount Hyjal got blown to smithereens, but that just made the battle all the more GAR. Quote:
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Expect much Hayate awesome when she finally decides to sortie from Rebuilt. :3 Quote:
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*backs away nervously from t3h Trapu* :3 Keikakudoori... Quote:
Fate: Good luck. Kha: ... This mental image is getting VERY unnerving... >.> Quote:
Sa nee...? Quote:
Let's say OC's were involved from Day 1. Which is the case for Rebuilt. Charlene Anzelotte works up with Fate, and therefore counteracts the Nanoha and Keroko pair in Season 1. Her reasons for doing so were only revealed in Nanoha/Cente Gravia. Kha was involved in A's, as the Cleric working in the shadows against the TSAB's actions. He would NEVER have let Chief, or any of the OFM, do whatever'd they'd do, because he would want to defeat her without causing any casualties. Laugh if you want, but Kha is the type that does things the hard way, because in his heart and from the whisperings of the Naaru, he knows its the right way. Sorry for your Troll worshipping, but if the OFM were involved in A's, Cleric < Chief in this universe. That vigilante disrupted every possible "efficient" movement of the OCs pre-StrikerS as he felt that what he did was right. And when Nanoha, Keroko and Fate finally overcame the Book, the Cleric knew he was vindicated. Otherwise things would not have turned out as it is for StrikerS. I don't care if it disrupts continuity to Alpha; I Rebuilt Nanoha to make it work, but even with my mistakes it was NOT AT THE EXPENSE OF THE ORIGINAL FLAVOR! Quote:
However she does long for someone to look at her not as Empress Vivio, not as Saber, not as Sankt Kaiser, but just Sakura Zaki. Which Kha does. Quote:
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Besides, I do assume that the "dearth" of SSS is only artificial. Such powerful mages lead battalions of S-rank mages from the front in places where they are needed most, the Rim Worlds. You don't need such awesome individuals Corewards so thats why in canon we hardly see any of it. BUT, the sheer fact that the TSAB is an absolute power means that these mages MUST exist. Quote:
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>.> <.< Quote:
Like I said, you have much use to me... I'M TRYING!!! Quote:
Fate: (smiling but emitting evil aura) But this is so fun... Kha is tamed. >.> Quote:
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*looks at the entire list of villains in The League that goes on forever* ...so it will balance... :3 Quote:
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Yup the insanity. Quote:
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Indeed, and not only that more likely to be in Rebuilt fanon as well. Btw, we have to recognize that Alpha isn't Kerokanon IMO. Kerokanon is the main events inserted with OCs. Period. As such, strictly speaking, Kerokanon only exists within the scope of Season 1 to End of StrikerS. Anything else can come close, but has a chance of becoming AU, and should be considered such. Quote:
... NO! NOT ATHRUN ZALA VS KIRA! GET OUTTA MA HEAD!!! ... Pretty much sums up my reaction. Another deep chara here. Quote:
I like how you build on you spells a lot, there's quite some detail stuck inside, it's delicious. And... dear god, poor boy. Don't take it too hard, both about your work and your girlfriend. If it's bad, it's better to break up now than later. Quote:
Same as Keroko, really really good work, just that it kinda flattens our current universe... But I gotta admit, before I knew that Belka and Midchilda were the same place, I'd cook up something like this as well. Quote:
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This must be the most well done incorporation of Spiralism into Nanohaverse to date! I was intending to use this "DNA power" as an explanation to the mystery of Inherent Skills, but looks like I didn't need to look very far. Too bad some of the story points conflict with my Belka world view, but for the principles of the school of Magic, I will have some use indeed! Quote:
Unless they are underground. Either way, I see the words SUBFACTION painted all over them, and I believe Skane has plans for these guys as well... Quote:
Setsuna: Granted it's not exactly the same person apart from the name. However, being part of something big does link the two. Remnant Belka school of magic is very interesting indeed, and adding yet another school of thought into the Belka umbrella does give it much more factionalism as seen in terran Christianity from which I modelled some principles on. Really great! Just need to work on why the TSAB would allow such a huge magical organization to remain of Earth completely eludes me though... Quote:
Yes this looks better, though I'm still not quite certain of the heresy bits. Keroko has the rest of the answers, so until I see his versions I'd say my Rebuilt of Noland would be somewhere in the middle. But one things for sure, Noland's doomed to becoming Vivio's meido. Already, the Rebuilt Nanoka series features 2Lt. Vivio having to tustle with her long time governor. :3 Quote:
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Hmm... Ideas... Quote:
If they didn't make it, they almost certainly found room in the Saint Guard, which apart from reservists and regulars drawn from the locals, is a giant conglomerate of private militias. This measure was introduced by the TSAB to control the Nobles powers while keeping them happy. The Braummuhl family's Forty Thieves is one such detachment. Quote:
Awesome work there, a great read nonetheless. I can figure out the timeline of this event to be sometime before StrikerS? And was that general Regius...? Quote:
I've nothing against the Sailors, but something else made me go >.> at the picture. I do hope I'm mistaken... Keikakudoori... Keikakudoori... Quote:
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Though the next part made me go 0_0. So...... Kha and Keroko are destined to work together to save the world? Darn KhaxKeroko should've been canon. There's no paradox, just just another person out there who looks familiar, has something familiar, but is in actual fact a completely different person. After all, Kerokos aren't created by divine beings as observing interveners that safeguard their creations... ...is she? Keikakudoori... ZETSUBOSHITA! Abare Hunter ni ZETSUBOSHITA!!! *RUNS* Quote:
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Kha over there, is the Chief Editor of the ARCHANGEL magazine, a Angelic Layer hobby magazine published by the Eriol Academy Journalism Club. He does the layer as well, and his angel Cleric is well known for his ability to create crosses of Light to use as his weapon. He calls that skill the Thousand Cross. However, he's just a side character writing a magazine that informs both meta-universe and across the 4th Wall about events in that timeline. ...>.> Quote:
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The Cleric replays a video of an unsuspecting Governor of the Trolls being crushed by the mountain of backlog, then replaces it with this image: Remember the Catgirls... For you do not fight The Cleric alone, but the legions I command. *fizz*
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2008-05-06, 09:20 | Link #24155 | |
Loveable Jerk
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Besides there was no real hard cacling going on there was a debate over the various aspects and limits of competing styles of magical combat and frankly that’s absolutely relevant when making or talking about character concepts IMO. Also bear in mind that to me this was a technical debate I'm not nearly as hard on actual works of fiction, but when it comes to simply debating technology or tactics and how they work or don't in a universe I'm considerably less forgiving.
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2008-05-06, 09:57 | Link #24156 | |
Truth Martyr
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Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Doing Anzu's paperwork.
Age: 38
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The reason I brought it up is because at the end of the day, we're not going to actually be able to quantification and hard calcing in any real meaningful manner, which is why ATC's calcing of the Arc's firepower or ark's calcing of ranges and speeds is inherently stupid and futile. Then again I take ark with a pinch of salt; he's not all that shit hot as he believes, and he somehow thinks we're all out to get him, and as we all saw, believes himself to be the final word on the Nanoverse, what with his analogy likening himself to a math professor. And he was insisting that rifle+bayonet = awesome melee weapon (when no military in the world trains in that anymore, and he dismissed mentions of real world doctrines that don't use rifles as melee weapons as "infodump, not argument"), as well as ergonomics equalling greater range. If ergonomics equaled range, the M4A1 and M468 should have identical range, given they have identicalergonomics: the M468 is basically an M4A1 with a different receiver and caliber. And yet it only shoots to 300 meters. Tactics and tech I don't mind so much, but it distracts from the point of OC. OC is for new charecters and new concepts of magic. A debate on melee vs ranged in the nanoverse goes into tech. So in summation, what the fuck was my point? 1) Hard calcing is useless. 2) Tech debating distracts from the purpose of OC. 3) Melee vs ranged depends on situation to situation. Note that TK's senarios assume a highly-competant Mid mage capable of flight, in which case it's even. On the ground, between a GF mage limited to ground combat, it's a different story. Each case depends on circumstances. Even F-22s have been taken down, And after all this has been said and done it must be noted that I just read and roll my eyes at the debate. My OCs have both ranged and melee skills to be able to handle ranged and melee spectrums.
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2008-05-06, 10:27 | Link #24157 | ||
Loveable Jerk
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I'm also trying not to gag at you basiclly declaring that Kha has a divinely given Omniscient Morality License Frankly this makes me want to simply murder him. His actions are pretty much blatantly unethical "I'll fuck up the good guys efforts to deal with a threat that could KILL BILLIONS" based on a vague notion I have that god is telling me to do it." You think ANYONE is going to buy that when he spews it? At best they'll shun him in disgust as a deluded fanatic and at worst they'll throw him in prison for interfering with government business a way that could have destroyed a PLANET. Of course I'm sure you'll respond that no there was never any risk and he simply KNEW it would turn out fine and to me that just shows the entire problem with the character. Quote:
I also don't take kindly to this "tech troll" shit at all crack boy frankly the "Trolls" have contributed more content to the thread then you have in quite a while. Nor do I like you talking crap about us putting in or debating about some elements we like while while you prance around ramming so much bullshit religious symbolism into the universe that even the Pope is like “Dude okay we get maybe done it down a little?”
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2008-05-06, 10:36 | Link #24158 | ||
He Who Smites Shippers
Join Date: Mar 2008
Age: 36
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And I, for the record, like the idea of some religious elements in this universe.
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2008-05-06, 11:09 | Link #24159 | |||
~ I Do ~
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Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: In the XV-8A Spartan "00"
Age: 38
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Not much comments here, except that for Rebuilt, what am I expected to do? Let's not even think that far back, just StrikerS alone. Add those OCs, I had a plan that swerved from the original BECAUSE THEY WERE THERE, but it got shot down. Now I reverted to preserving the original storyline, and it gets upon. Seriously WHAT do YOU ALL want me to do. -_- Ah fk this, I'm going back to my first idea since I did agree that having OCs will change things drastically. Sans excessive Khrack of course. So much from trying to keep things within 1 canon week. :/ Quote:
But comparative wise, its just a rank; My X rank is your SSS limit; My SSS Commander rank is your SS rank, so on and so forth. The power levels look pretty much the same, if not only spliting the SS rank into low-SS and Hi-SS with the SS and SSS rankings. Quote:
I don't want to spark a debate about religiosity and atheism. It's getting rather painful to read this place.
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2008-05-06, 11:17 | Link #24160 | |
He Who Smites Shippers
Join Date: Mar 2008
Age: 36
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