[GSD] Official "AFTER-EP" (episode 51) discussion

[polar720]

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

I did, but so what? It just means Fukuda and I have significantly different views on "justice". He thinks that genocide is ok as long as it's part of some half-cooked masterplan supported by shoddy science that will, supposedly, bring about world peace. I don't.

I`m still trying to figure out where you got genocide from?

[Vallen Chaos Valiant]

Originally Posted by polar720

I`m still trying to figure out where you got genocide from?

Intention to use a WMD that has the capability to vaporise landmass on an island-nation with the full knowledge that every man, woman and child of that nation will die, is Genocide.
From
http://www.genevaconventions.org/

genocide

Genocide is a violation of the 1948 Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide.

It is a crime under international law both in peace and in times of war and is defined as acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnic, racial or religious group,, including killing or seriously injuring members of the group, imposing measures indented to prevent births or forcibly transferring children.

[polar720]

Okay, and who was he going to do this to?

[Vallen Chaos Valiant]

Originally Posted by polar720

Okay, and who was he going to do this to?

The entire nation of ORB. I thought it was obvious?

[polar720]

Was this not because ORB was attacking him?

[Eclipze]

Originally Posted by polar720

Was this not because ORB was attacking him?

If this is about reqiuem(sp?), I dont remember Orb attacking ZAFT.

Dully used it on a nation that merely rejected his ideas on the Destiny plan, and was about to do the same to Orb.

Orb only attacked (with AA and gang) after they decided that reqiuem was too dangerous to be kept in ZAFT's possesion. (and that was after that nation, who's name escapes me now, got hit by it.)

[Anh_Minh]

Originally Posted by polar720

Was this not because ORB was attacking him?

No, it was because it was refusing his "Destiny Plan".

Besides, you're supposed to answer military threats militarily - fleet to fleet, not giant death ray to civilians.

[Shinji103]

Well, it was Fukuda's last-dtich attempt to make "Evil Dully" before the final battle and to give the godly TSA a good reason to think of Dullindal as a bad guy, since the one quote from the notebook alone was kinda not enough to go "Dullindal is evil!!" and have it make sense. So naturally, it would seem kinda wierd that Dullindal starts aiming giant beam cannons of death at nations that don't agree with him whenhe had such a smiley face just an episode or two earlier. Plus the staff was so late on stuff with earlier episodes that they didn't have enough time properly develop Dullindal into a bad guy. I found Dullindal's revelation of evil to be quite hinky.

[Anh_Minh]

Originally Posted by Shinji103

Well, it was Fukuda's last-dtich attempt to make "Evil Dully" before the final battle and to give the godly TSA a good reason to think of Dullindal as a bad guy, since the one quote from the notebook alone was kinda not enough to go "Dullindal is evil!!" and have it make sense. So naturally, it would seem kinda wierd that Dullindal starts aiming giant beam cannons of death at nations that don't agree with him whenhe had such a smiley face just an episode or two earlier. Plus the staff was so late on stuff with earlier episodes that they didn't have enough time properly develop Dullindal into a bad guy. I found Dullindal's revelation of evil to be quite hinky.

It's been obvious Dully was evil since Phase One. You could tell from his tone, voice and self satisfied smirk. Sure, in real life, it means nothing. but in anime, it means "two faced bastard". Same as if you see an ugly old woman wearing black in a fairy tale, it means "wicked witch".

I do agree that the speed with which he dropped the mask toward the end, and the low numbers of people who noticed, was weird.

[Shinji103]

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

It's been obvious Dully was evil since Phase One. You could tell from his tone, voice and self satisfied smirk. Sure, in real life, it means nothing. but in anime, it means "two faced bastard". Same as if you see an ugly old woman wearing black in a fairy tale, it means "wicked witch".

I'm actually quite good at judging who a bad guy is when I first see them. Like in FFX, as soon as I saw Seymour, the very first second I saw him getting off the bost at his first appearance in the game, the first thought that went through my head was "BAD GUY." And, lo and behold. I didn't get any bad guy vibes from Dullindal until they showed him looking at the Destroy's data, which made it blatantly obvious that Fukuda was going to make him a bad guy. That's how bad he was hinted as an upcoming bad guy. >.>

[Anh_Minh]

I don't see what's so special about knowing Seymour for what he was. If you couldn't spot Dully, I'd refrain from boasting. I wasn't 100% sure (I thought maybe it was an accident? Or maybe he was one of those semi-villain types of characters) but as soon as he opened his mouth, I was say, 75% sure that at the end of the show he'd find himself on the wrong side.

[polar720]

cause, voices and appearances mark a person`s morals and what side he`s on. I guess that means Hiei, Guts, and Hajime Saitou were all terrible badguys then right?

[ccardoso]

Do you people here realize that there isn't only absolute evilness or absolute rightness? An "absolute evil" was Rau, while Dulindall only wanted to build a world according to his own idea with anything he had. The same goes for Kira, with the difference that he hasn't a well definite idea on how the world should be.

[Vallen Chaos Valiant]

Originally Posted by ccardoso

Do you people here realize that there isn't only absolute evilness or absolute rightness? An "absolute evil" was Rau, while Dulindall only wanted to build a world according to his own idea with anything he had. The same goes for Kira, with the difference that he hasn't a well definite idea on how the world should be.

Since when did Kira wanted to build a world according to his own idea? He just wants to be left alone like everyone else in the Clyne faction.

I suppose if I have a well defined idea of world peace, would you consider it an option? Would you support me?

My idea is to unite every nation under MY rule. Thereafter there won't be a war ever again.

And you know full well it will work as long as my iron-fist still holds a death-grip on the world, while I am still alive.

Oh, entire peoples, nations, and even cultures would be destroyed in the process, but as you say, it's all okay as long as I meant well.

Do you WANT someone you've never met to tell you how to live YOUR life?

What if I told you, as a part of the process to world peace, I have to kill you and your entire family, would you stand there and watch me shoot your parents dead? If I said it was scientifically proven to be necessary?

Rau isn't any more or less evil than Gilbert; Both of them don't care about humanity as a whole. Both determined that humans have no right to live freely.

The difference being, Rau wants to give humanity a death sentence, while Gilbert wants to give humanity life imprisonment.

[Anh_Minh]

ccardoso: No, I'd say the major difference was in their views on genocide.

I hate it when people gloss over that one and act as if Dullindal was as justified as Kira in "imposing his vision".


Polar 720: Hiei just looks like a Bad Boy(tm), which he is, I haven't watched Berserk, but IIRC, Guts looks like a barbarian, and Saito... Well, he does look kinda "bad". But that's what the artist wants us to think, and he is, to a point, an antagonist of Kenshin's.

And yes, appearances are a clue of what side the characer's on. It can be a red herring, but it often isn't.

[Shinji103]

Actually, I didn't judge Seymour by looks. If you watch anime, you should know that judging a character only by looks is not the way to go. Like Saito. He seems evil at first, but then you see the only reason Kenshin is fighting him is because they're rivals, not because Saito has some evil plan for world domination. As for Seymour, I didn't go by his looks, but by my gut feeling swhen I saw him. Ithought at firts he was a cool looking guy, then when it was confirmed he was a bad guy, I hated him. I've seen plenty of guys who look/act like jackasses but aren't bad guys. ike Martin Zigmar and Gendou Ikari, they act like they're ruthless "I have evil plans" bad guys, but in the end they show they aren't bad. Even Shishio Makoto turned out to be a guy with feelings, not some cold-hearted guy who doesn't care about anyone else at all. Of course, there's your obviously evil guys like Mujou Kyoji....

Dullindal at the start of the series was certainly lacking in looking like a bad guy. All of a sudden he goes from "I'll lead the world to peace!" to "If you don't go with me, I'll blow you up with my uber super cannon!" and even to "I don't care about my soldiers, I just want to accomplish my goals!" That was just too much. >.>

[ccardoso]

Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant

Since when did Kira wanted to build a world according to his own idea? He just wants to be left alone like everyone else in the Clyne faction.

Since when? Since never and in fact I wrote that. But he says he will fight for world peace so he must have an idea on how in the hell to implement this (or he will urge to have that in the future) because world peace can't be reached only with Strike Freedom rainbow attack.

I suppose if I have a well defined idea of world peace, would you consider it an option? Would you support me?

It depends on what this idea consits of and what will be the price. Just to clear one point: I don't like the destiny plan... it would make people sort of living zombies and the coordinators we would be put on the top of society of course, because they've better genes than naturals. For this reason the destiny plan wouldn't stop any war imho, because the naturals would keep feeling inferior to coordinators: it would be even worse if it's possible because this difference would be law.

Oh, entire peoples, nations, and even cultures would be destroyed in the process, but as you say, it's all okay as long as I meant well.

I didn't say it's ok to do that. Don't put in my mouth your speculation please!
I only said that Dulindall isn't an absolute evil. He want to implement his bad idea of world peace, without any genocide, unlike Blue Cosmos or Rau/Patrick Zala.

Do you WANT someone you've never met to tell you how to live YOUR life?

No of course. OMG the speculation in these boards is absurd!

Rau isn't any more or less evil than Gilbert; Both of them don't care about humanity as a whole. Both determined that humans have no right to live freely.

I can't disagree more with this. Rau is an absolute evil because he dares to judge entire humanity while he's a human too, while Gilbert only wanted to implement his idea of world peace, killing as few people as possible.
Anyway even Rau cared about humanity in his own way: he wanted to end humanity's existence because he tought it was hopeless.

Originally Posted by Shinji103

Dullindal at the start of the series was certainly lacking in looking like a bad guy. All of a sudden he goes from "I'll lead the world to peace!" to "If you don't go with me, I'll blow you up with my uber super cannon!" and even to "I don't care about my soldiers, I just want to accomplish my goals!" That was just too much. >.>

He advised the ZAFT ships Genesis was going to fire...

[Crusader]

I knew Gilbert was evil from the get go, Im suprised people didn't see ti in his self satisfying Smirk. If there is one thing i have learned from anime, if a chracter is too good to be true, they usually aren't. namely politics.

[Anh_Minh]

Originally Posted by Shinji103

Actually, I didn't judge Seymour by looks. If you watch anime, you should know that judging a character only by looks is not the way to go. Like Saito. He seems evil at first, but then you see the only reason Kenshin is fighting him is because they're rivals, not because Saito has some evil plan for world domination. As for Seymour, I didn't go by his looks, but by my gut feeling swhen I saw him. Ithought at firts he was a cool looking guy, then when it was confirmed he was a bad guy, I hated him. I've seen plenty of guys who look/act like jackasses but aren't bad guys. ike Martin Zigmar and Gendou Ikari, they act like they're ruthless "I have evil plans" bad guys, but in the end they show they aren't bad. Even Shishio Makoto turned out to be a guy with feelings, not some cold-hearted guy who doesn't care about anyone else at all. Of course, there's your obviously evil guys like Mujou Kyoji....

Eh. An evil mass murdering bastard can be a nice family man and a good neighbor, he's still an evil mass murdering bastard. So what if Shishio's got feelings?

Dullindal at the start of the series was certainly lacking in looking like a bad guy. All of a sudden he goes from "I'll lead the world to peace!" to "If you don't go with me, I'll blow you up with my uber super cannon!" and even to "I don't care about my soldiers, I just want to accomplish my goals!" That was just too much. >.>

It wasn't just (or even mostly) looks. It was the voice, the words, the attitude. He was too poised, too self-satisfied. There was also the fact he was at odds with Cagalli, a definite "good guy". I'm not saying Cagalli's always right, far from it, but that fact was still a serious "antagonist" indicator. Even so, I wasn't really sure. And then, bad stuff started happening. I didn't really suspect him for the gundamjacking. But when Junius 7 fell, I was reasonably certain he had something to do with it. And when Meer appeared, well, I knew he couldn't be up to any good. The attempt on Lacus' life was just confirmation.

So to me, it wasn't a sudden descent into evil. It wasn't even a descent at all. I already knew he was evil, and had been for some time, but was succesful at hiding it. He was just starting to show it.

It was the same for Seymour. I had a bad feeling about him from the start, but it wasn't cinched till the whole proposal deal. I don't judge characters just by looks. But I still consider them to be a clue into what the artist wants us to think it is.

[Anh_Minh]

Originally Posted by ccardoso

Since when? Since never and in fact I wrote that. But he says he will fight for world peace so he must have an idea on how in the hell to implement this (or he will urge to have that in the future) because world peace can't be reached only with Strike Freedom rainbow attack.

Eh. Most likely, he's just going to wing it. If there was a real, quick, easy plan for worldpeace, it'd have been done before. Anyway, Lacus is the brains of the outfit.

It depends on what this idea consits of and what will be the price. Just to clear one point: I don't like the destiny plan... it would make people sort of living zombies and the coordinators we would be put on the top of society of course, because they've better genes than naturals. For this reason the destiny plan wouldn't stop any war imho, because the naturals would keep feeling inferior to coordinators: it would be even worse if it's possible because this difference would be law.

But it wouldn't be war anymore! It'd be rebellion! Good job, Dully!

I didn't say it's ok to do that. Don't put in my mouth your speculation please!
I only said that Dulindall isn't an absolute evil. He want to implement his bad idea of world peace, without any genocide, unlike Blue Cosmos or Rau/Patrick Zala.

*cough*RequiemabouttofireatOrb*cough*

I mean, really, what's his supposed redeeming quality? That he meant well? So did Blue Cosmos and Patrick Zala, if you're going to stretch the definition of "well" that far. Heck, maybe even Rau was trying to serve some warped concept of "justice".

No of course. OMG the speculation in these boards is absurd!


I can't disagree more with this. Rau is an absolute evil because he dares to judge entire humanity while he's a human too, while Gilbert only wanted to implement his idea of world peace, killing as few people as possible.
Anyway even Rau cared about humanity in his own way: he wanted to end humanity's existence because he tought it was hopeless.

Hm. I wouldn't equate Dully to Rau either, but as far as I'm concerned, they're both sufficiently evil that the differences are mostly academic.

I'll give Dully this, though. He was much more dangerous than Rau, and could still be. It was his ideas that were dangerous, and they didn't stop being so at his death. Seed 3 could be, for example, Destiny Plan aficionados from all around the world making trouble.

He advised the ZAFT ships Genesis was going to fire...

But didn't leave them enough time to get out of the way.