2020 US Presidential Election Discussion (primary & general)

[cyberdemon]

Originally Posted by SeijiSensei

UPS now reports that they found the documents and have sent them on to Carlson.



At the current pace it's likely turnout in Texas will exceed 11 million votes, or 59% of the eligible electorate. Like the rest of the country, turnout in Texas jumped in 2018 to 45.6%, about 10-15 points higher than the average rate in off-year elections back to 1998. In 2016, 51.4% voted, so 59% in 2020 is plausible, and perhaps even low.

Then this should be interesting. Wonder how they are going to prove its authenticity. Not that it will matter much this close to the election when many people have already voted. It’s mostly trump supporters who are waiting till the actual Election Day. Honestly if it was truly “Damning” then it would’ve been sent to the fbi or Giuliani. He probably has some spin on the story. However saying it is authentic doesn’t make it authentic without undeniable proof.

[ramlaen]

https://greenwald.substack.com/p/my-...-the-intercept

Today I sent my intention to resign from The Intercept, the news outlet I co-founded in 2013 with Jeremy Scahill and Laura Poitras, as well as from its parent company First Look Media.

Must be quite the experience to have such partisan editors that you end up quitting a media outlet you helped create.

[cyberdemon]

https://www.yahoo.com/huffpost/right...214648860.html

This says a lot of these so called Christians lol

Seems despite the “devasting evidence” turning up after apparently being lost Tucker Carlson is suddenly saying it’s time to leave Hunter Biden alone. This either means his evidence was a scam or he was banking on the disappearing documents to create a scam.

[coded321]

The entire hunter biden laptop "scandal" is just the right trying to reproduce the hillary's email scandal for biden, and failing pathetically at that.
Not only are their attacks on biden through hunter not working, they're making Biden look good. Seriously, biden, who should have been the weakest candidate to go against trump, and here's Trump and the right making him look good. This is why, unlike Hillary, biden doesn't need to campaign in this last week, because Trump is campaigning for him.
If Trump does end up winning, he's definitely firing barr and the current fbi director, for failing to open an "investigation" into biden before election day.

[Guardian Enzo]

Biden will never get any credit for it from some circles, but he’s actually made himself look good. He’s run a rock-solid campaign and people genuinely like him for the most part. He’s a nice guy and comes off that way.

[Magin]

Let's make an assumption that Biden does manage to win...

My next question is, how does that ACTUALLY help? I get that America needs o do baby steps now (sorry Progressives, but making America into this great place for progressive folks overnight ain't happening), but... well, there's an old joke that goes something like, a man gets to choose whether he goes to Heaven or Hell. After a meh tour of Heaven, Satan shows him this fantastic place that's more like what Heaven would sound like, with luxuries and everything else fantastic to be in for the afterlife. Guy chooses Hell, of course... and then goes there for real, finding it to actually be a place of pain, torture and suffering. Asking what happened, Satan replies "Well, that part was just for the campaign- this is how it really is". So going from there... there's a part of me thinking that should Biden get in, it'll go back to Establishment Democrats running the show, and pumping out messages on the media outlets of "How can you criticize Biden? He's so much better than Trump, so you shouldn't say anything bad about him, or else you'll look like you're a Republican!"

There's also a part of me thinking that people will get lazy with political activism once again... sure, there's firebrands like AOC out there, but I think a lot of people, despite the shitshow after Trump (again, assuming Biden does get the Presidency), are going to say "Eh, we have our guy in the White House, we can calm down again and have hope, no need to be politically active"... and hence the godawful cycle repeats.

[Anh_Minh]

Originally Posted by cyberdemon

https://www.yahoo.com/huffpost/right...214648860.html

This says a lot of these so called Christians lol

Yes, it says they don't speak Arabic.

[kari-no-sugata II]

Originally Posted by Magin

Let's make an assumption that Biden does manage to win...

My next question is, how does that ACTUALLY help?

When the current president is a dumpster fire, simply putting that fire out rather than inflaming it is a good start. And yes, anyone but Trump would be able to do that pretty much simply by being elected, but Biden was basically chosen in the primary for having the highest probability of being elected. In short, Biden is more palatable to the general electorate and so has the best chance of actually putting that dumpster fire out in practice.

Yes we don't know for sure how Biden will behave as a president but he's at least likely to take COVID-19 seriously. I don't know if he'll be able to reduce the amount of polarisation in US politics but he might at least try. I wouldn't be surprised if he's a disappointment in various ways but at least he's not a clear and present danger to the country.

I'm well aware that politics is dirty and campaign promises mean little. After all, much of that stuff needs to be done by the legislative branch rather than the executive. It's not like this is limited to politicians either - the media in general is quite terrible and there's many people out there who are more interested in power or fame than actually trying to make things better. But ultimately, if you're a US voter then you can only vote for Trump, vote for Biden or "none of the above". Suggesting that Biden might not be great is not a reason to vote for the dumpster fire.

I'm not a US voter but I can understand why people might not like either option. There's been times when I've either not voted at all because I didn't like any of the main options, or times when I've voted for "none of the above" (ie any independent). But ultimately, I think the main way in which democracy works is it gives you the power to kick out bad people. If you fail to kick out the clearly bad then you can hardly expect things to get better.

[GDB]

Originally Posted by Magin

*snip*

I'm not sure what point you're trying to make. Seems like you're trying to say Biden's just as bad as Trump because he might be 10-year ago status quo, or that people will stop caring about politics... and somehow that's NOT better (even though it's unlikely either of these happen) than more Trump and GOP.

[Guardian Enzo]

Originally Posted by Magin

Let's make an assumption that Biden does manage to win...

My next question is, how does that ACTUALLY help?

Is that a serious question? The President not being a sociopathic narcissist who's trying to literally destroy the American democracy isn't enough to start you off?

[The Green One]

When you have a President that doesn't ACTIVELY try to make things worse, than you have somebody who isn't Trump. That's a pretty pitiful low. When you have someone who doesn't spend his time living in a delusional fantasy reality all the time you have someone who's better than Trump. When you have somebody who'd cheerfully let the country burn before admitting he's wrong you have somebody who's better than Trump. When you have someone who can go more than 24 hours without lying you have somebody who's better than Trump.

[Sheba]

Originally Posted by Magin

Let's make an assumption that Biden does manage to win...

My next question is, how does that ACTUALLY help?

That reasoning is why 2016 happened, that and the assholes who voted Trump for the memes and the lulz.

[SeijiSensei]

Originally Posted by Guardian Enzo

Is that a serious question? The President not being a sociopathic narcissist who's trying to literally destroy the American democracy isn't enough to start you off?

Questions like Magin's spark a standard reaction from me. You're not voting for a person when you vote for President, you're voting for the team he or she will bring with them. Trump has staffed the Federal government with incompetents and sycophants and driven many serious career officials out of government. I see repairing the Federal government as Biden's biggest challenge in the first term, along with repairing our reputation overseas.

If the Democrats take the Senate, I see them passing some version of the John Lewis Voting Rights bill and maybe dismantling some parts of the 2018 tax cut. That, along with fighting the pandemic and rebuilding the government and our alliances are my predictions for a Biden Administration. Oh, and maybe passing a public option for the ACA assuming it isn't destroyed by SCOTUS. If it is, the Administration will have to pass a successor. Covering pre-existing conditions without the apparatus included with the ACA will be a difficult task. There's a reason why the Republicans never managed to pass a healthcare bill in four years.

[mangamuscle]

Originally Posted by SeijiSensei

I see repairing the Federal government as Biden's biggest challenge in the first term

I am being optimistic here, I feel atm that Biden winning is a done deal. So I am looking forward into the future. Biden has alrerady said he is a one term president, which means there will be a fight for the future of the democratic party, will the centrists or the leftist win, it is too soon to know.

along with repairing our reputation overseas.

IMO this will be tough, since the USA might elect someone like trump later. Heh, if trump does not end in jail, he will be again in the ballot fof 2024!

If the Democrats take the Senate, I see them ... ACA assuming it isn't destroyed by SCOTUS.

IMO it would be better for the senate to destroy ACA so that Biden pushes for medicare for all. I know atm he is not convinced, but if ACA ends there will be a push inside the dem party to do their own thing instead of polish Romney(doesn't)Care.

I would like Biden to repeal the T_MEC and return to NAFTA and having him either enter again the paris climate deal or maybe even push for a 2.0 version of said deal.

Oh, and remove the USA embassy from jerusalem.

[Magin]

Originally Posted by kari-no-sugata II

Yes we don't know for sure how Biden will behave as a president but he's at least likely to take COVID-19 seriously. I don't know if he'll be able to reduce the amount of polarisation in US politics but he might at least try. I wouldn't be surprised if he's a disappointment in various ways but at least he's not a clear and present danger to the country.

I'm well aware that politics is dirty and campaign promises mean little. After all, much of that stuff needs to be done by the legislative branch rather than the executive. It's not like this is limited to politicians either - the media in general is quite terrible and there's many people out there who are more interested in power or fame than actually trying to make things better. But ultimately, if you're a US voter then you can only vote for Trump, vote for Biden or "none of the above". Suggesting that Biden might not be great is not a reason to vote for the dumpster fire.

I do agree that Biden will probably focus on getting Covid under control at first. And maybe something to do with healthcare... if we're lucky. Will I take Biden over Trump? Abso-fucking-lutely. BUT... what's keeping things from returning back to the Obama era? The bad news about the Obama Era that everyone overlooks is that people got lazy and allowed a person like Trump to rise. I'm not looking for overnight change; I'm looking for the groundwork to be laid so that if we manage to get out of the current crisis, we won't have to ever worry about this again. But again... who's to say that Biden and whoever else gets in will even have this kind of mentality? They may have only enough interest in getting Democrats in control... and that's as far as they're willing to go.

Originally Posted by GDB

I'm not sure what point you're trying to make. Seems like you're trying to say Biden's just as bad as Trump because he might be 10-year ago status quo, or that people will stop caring about politics... and somehow that's NOT better (even though it's unlikely either of these happen) than more Trump and GOP.

I'm basically saying that just getting Biden in isn't enough. It's a start, and I don't expect raidcal changes overnight... but again, there needs to be a ton of reforms done to prevent someone like Trump from ever getting into power. I don't see the Establishment democrats that are supporting Biden having any interest into actually making America a decent place to live in, just enough that Democrats are in control.

Originally Posted by Guardian Enzo

Is that a serious question? The President not being a sociopathic narcissist who's trying to literally destroy the American democracy isn't enough to start you off?

Nope, has to be more- see my above comments

Originally Posted by The Green One

When you have a President that doesn't ACTIVELY try to make things worse, than you have somebody who isn't Trump. That's a pretty pitiful low. When you have someone who doesn't spend his time living in a delusional fantasy reality all the time you have someone who's better than Trump. When you have somebody who'd cheerfully let the country burn before admitting he's wrong you have somebody who's better than Trump. When you have someone who can go more than 24 hours without lying you have somebody who's better than Trump.

Yeah, the bar's been set rather low... but dammit, I want it to be set high again. Someone who's simply "not Trump" isn't enough. Biden and the Dems have to actively work towards making America a better place for the majority of people... or at least progressives. As I'll be repeating constantly... who says they have any interest in doing that?
Establishment Dems have their own donors too who lobby and they ultimately favor. The donors rarely favor any class changes... which is what we REALLY need in America. Why help the middle, working class when your donors are really wealthy upper class? We shine it more on Republicans to vilify them, but I guarantee you Dems have similar people in their own circles calling the shots.

Originally Posted by Sheba

That reasoning is why 2016 happened, that and the assholes who voted Trump for the memes and the lulz.

I will stand by my idea that 2016 happened because Hillary carries too much baggage and is the Democratic version of a Narcissictic selfish asshole.

Originally Posted by SeijiSensei

Questions like Magin's spark a standard reaction from me. You're not voting for a person when you vote for President, you're voting for the team he or she will bring with them. Trump has staffed the Federal government with incompetents and sycophants and driven many serious career officials out of government. I see repairing the Federal government as Biden's biggest challenge in the first term, along with repairing our reputation overseas.

If the Democrats take the Senate, I see them passing some version of the John Lewis Voting Rights bill and maybe dismantling some parts of the 2018 tax cut. That, along with fighting the pandemic and rebuilding the government and our alliances are my predictions for a Biden Administration. Oh, and maybe passing a public option for the ACA assuming it isn't destroyed by SCOTUS. If it is, the Administration will have to pass a successor. Covering pre-existing conditions without the apparatus included with the ACA will be a difficult task. There's a reason why the Republicans never managed to pass a healthcare bill in four years.

Yeah, it's who they're bringing in with Biden that I'm afraid of. It's going to be Establishment Democrats, and they have little to no interest in helping the middle class... Establishment Dems are just as bad as republicans, with their interests only for the wealthy and upper class. And that's who's going to be riding in with Biden.

This whole rant comes down to this: Yes, Biden is better... but there's a reason I'm technically team Sanders. I won't expect radical change overnight, but we CANNOT go back to how things were during the Obama era. Massive changes do need to happen during Biden' term, such as healthcare, maybe packing the courts, handling student loan debt, try to repair America's image abroad (this is the least likely to happen, IMO). It;s not just enough to elect Biden- he needs to succeed where Obama failed. But will he and the Dems even want to? That's my major question and worry.

[Guardian Enzo]

Originally Posted by mangamuscle

I am being optimistic here, I feel atm that Biden winning is a done deal. So I am looking forward into the future. Biden has alrerady said he is a one term president, which means there will be a fight for the future of the democratic party, will the centrists or the leftist win, it is too soon to know.

He most emphatically has NOT said that.

[TinyRedLeaf]

As I've said before, I believe Andrew Yang was the only one among all the Democractic candidates who got it right about what went wrong in the American middle class, to enable Donald Trump's victory in 2016. It's the economy and, to me, the greatest danger of a Democratic sweep of the legislature and executive branches — if it does happen — would be to go back to the "progressive" identity politics of the Obama era, at the expense of fundamental economic reform at the grassroots level.

The rising inequality in America, as in elsewhere, will not be fixed by simplistic solutions like a legally mandated minimum wage alone. That's just a short-term crutch. The long-term problem lies in the hollowing out of American industry, especially in the rural parts of the country. The automation of industries, the concentration of capital in the coastal cities, and global competition won't be fixed by legal fiat — you'll only distort the situation without providing a sustainable solution.

What you'll need is investment, at the grassroots levels, to give people who have been displaced by economic disruption and restructuring some hope again of holding down long-term, stable jobs. Or, if not, at least the prospect of being able to set up sustainable small businesses. This means you need to invest again in education (the universities will take care of themselves; they're rich enough; fix the elementary and high-school systems). That means you need funds, grants or fiscal measures aimed at helping people start busineses, no matter where in the country they are.

People with a stake in the success of their local communities are far less likely to want to lash out at it. So, fixing the grassroots economy is also fundamental for fixing all the other social problems in the country. You'll need technocrats to run the civil service, not ideologues and certainly not sycophants.

There's too much fixation, I feel, with ideology rather than fixing the nuts and bolts of what makes an economy work, for businesses and for workers.

As a foreigner looking in, I don't think Biden will be able to deliver on such reforms. Neither do I think the "progressives" represented by Sanders is the solution — and, indeed, if the more left-leaning Democrats were to really push, then what you'll get is the inevitable backlash from conservative Americans, and the cycle will repeat itself after the next round of elections.

This is where I think representative elections in Western democracies have generally failed — they just don't lend themselves to the election of leadership with long-term vision.

At this point, the best I can hope for is that Trump is defeated. Not every non-American would agree. There are foreign powers who would prefer to have Trump remain as president, because it suits them to have a US that is distracted and weakened by division. I, on the other hand, feel that a destablised US will be disastrous for the international order, so a world without Trump would definitely be, in my opinion, a bit more law-abiding, if not more peaceful.

America, please vote wisely.

[Ithekro]

The middle class had the American Dream to lean on. Now that's been gutted and its remains are either listless or angry. America wants its dreams back. Goal to strive for. Even if they can't be reached, having them is better than being a class depressed.

[kari-no-sugata II]

Originally Posted by Magin

I do agree that Biden will probably focus on getting Covid under control at first. And maybe something to do with healthcare... if we're lucky. Will I take Biden over Trump? Abso-fucking-lutely. BUT... what's keeping things from returning back to the Obama era? The bad news about the Obama Era that everyone overlooks is that people got lazy and allowed a person like Trump to rise. I'm not looking for overnight change; I'm looking for the groundwork to be laid so that if we manage to get out of the current crisis, we won't have to ever worry about this again. But again... who's to say that Biden and whoever else gets in will even have this kind of mentality? They may have only enough interest in getting Democrats in control... and that's as far as they're willing to go.

I think there's only so much the president can do. You're basically worrying not so much about Biden but the president after him. I think one useful thing would be for the Republicans to lose big, at all levels, and not just in 2020 but in 2022. And beyond. Force them to re-invent themselves. Because the problem is not just Trump but those who enabled him.

Reminds me of how the Conservative Party lost massively in 1997 to Tony Blair here in the UK. It basically required a whole new generation and whole-scale reinvention of the party to win again. I'd say the current Republicans deserve far worse fate.

Yeah, it's who they're bringing in with Biden that I'm afraid of. It's going to be Establishment Democrats, and they have little to no interest in helping the middle class... Establishment Dems are just as bad as republicans, with their interests only for the wealthy and upper class. And that's who's going to be riding in with Biden..

Well sure, there's plenty of corrupt and self-serving Democrats out there but they at least seem to vaguely care about competent governance and so on. Hopefully some new rules can be put in place to help reduce corruption in general. Didn't HR1 have some useful stuff? Though I've not looked at it in detail.

Hopefully Biden will both get elected and also appoint plenty of "next generation" Democrats too (and I don't mean "Leftist" by that).

I don't want to discuss future directions too much since that's rather off topic. Maybe you want to create a new thread to air your future concerns?

[The Green One]

Even if Biden wins Republicans aren't going to just magically cooperate with him. Very little will probably actually change during his term, but hopefully at least things will stop getting actively worse.

The biggest thing in Biden's favor is he's given every indication he'll treat Covid as the serious threat it is. It remains to be seen if the Government itself will be anything remotely cooperative.