2010-12-06, 13:27 | Link #19501 |
Miss Kimi
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Residing as the 18th guest of Rokkenjima
Age: 28
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I've only read the 50% patch of EP7, but lemme ask something...
All of you guys are saying that Nanjo and Genji are or have convinced Yasu that she is a boy. Then they make that "boy" dress up as a girl and meet Kinzo. But why the heck would they tell her she's a boy? The only reason I can think of is them wanting to at least protect Yasu in case Kinzo was going to repeat his sin again.. But then, I'm sure if they told Kinzo his daughter/granddaughter was a boy, I'm sure he wouldn't do anything drastic. So why dress him up as a girl then? Is the whole "boy" thing a backup plan and they were gonna have Yasu stay as a girl, just when Kinzo goes all "BEATRICE!!" Genji and Nanjo go, "Whoops, sorry, Kinzo, he's a boy! See?" Just a tad confusing for me...
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2010-12-06, 13:41 | Link #19502 |
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Nothing is ever said clearly one way or another about Yasu's gender. We just know that Nanjo and Genji drop a huge bombshell on her at one point that has her in hysterics and ends with her calling herself furniture and cursing her inability to love.
If there is something unusual about Yasu's gender, Kinzo himself knows about it. He presented Lion to Natsuhi as a boy baby, since that's what's stuck in Natsuhi's head all these years, but he doesn't evidence shock over seeing his child in a dress. Likewise, Lion doesn't seem shocked that his alternate universe self was seemingly raised as a woman.
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2010-12-06, 13:47 | Link #19503 | |||||
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Unless it's part of the script. But that's just creepy. Quote:
Just saying. Quote:
To say nothing of the eye-rolling B.S. of opening an episode with "a servant can't do it!" and then turn around and say "BUT THE SERVANT WASN'T REALLY A SERVANT, LOL." Even though the non-servant servant was in fact a servant. I mean yes, one can say the rule doesn't "technically" mean that, but Ryukishi does not go into the rule deep enough that his lay audience should realize that, so it really is cheating. Quote:
It's going to a whole lot of trouble for... what, exactly? He can't have known what would happen 30 years down the line. We have to look at his potential thought process in the early 50s, and at that point I honestly can't see any real purpose to it. It hardly makes sense as just a secret gold vault since it takes a ladder to manipulate and there's clearly an alternate entrance to the gold room, so Kinzo and Genji don't need to do it to actually get there. It also means one could find the gold without solving the epitaph. Quote:
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2010-12-06, 14:23 | Link #19504 |
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@Renall:
I think it a bit unlikely that Kinzo ever thought of Beatrice 2 as his heir. We see how he treats a possible heir in EP7. Lion is trained from a young age and given all sorts of real-life experiences, so that he/she'll be more than ready to lead by the time the headship is passed on. But Kinzo apparently just locked Beatrice 2 away. Rosa's story might be a lie, but if even part of it is true, Beatrice 2 was scared to death of wolves and didn't know what a zoo was. How could a person who's already like that as an adult ever take over a multi-million dollar family business? Kinzo probably wanted to let her live in luxury, but unless he was very naive (or Rosa was lying, which is very possible), he never planned for her to be the family head.
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2010-12-06, 15:02 | Link #19506 | |
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But... planning what? The way the epitaph is allegedly actually used in ep7 doesn't make any sense if it was all put into place 30 years before it was actually needed. And if the epitaph riddle wasn't what Kinzo intended the chapel device to be used for, what the heck did he want to do with it?
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2010-12-06, 15:53 | Link #19508 | |
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Let's say that Kinzo did set up the chapel to decide his heir. And, let's assume that he didn't count Beatrice 2 as an heir because she was a woman (and might not even have been his daughter). Finally, it's probably safe to assume that Beatrice 1 didn't have any other children with him. If that's the case, the only way he could get an heir would be if Beatrice 2 had a son. You probably see where this is going. Part of him may have thought of Beatrice 2 as Beatrice 1 reborn, but he also wanted to have the successor come from Beatrice's line, not his wife's. So, his second reason for keeping Beatrice 2 locked up was to have her create a male heir for him. He probably couldn't have predicted that Natsuhi would have trouble bearing a child, so he needed some other way to let a possible Beatrice 2's son become the head. The simple fact that he hid Lion's parentage proves that he wasn't willing to tell the family about Beatrice 2. So he couldn't just say that Lion was his grandson. According to Genji in EP7, Kinzo's will simply says that the one who solves the epitaph will gain the headship. If Kinzo doesn't openly choose a relative, he needs a good excuse for choosing someone else. If he wants, he can just tell Lion the epitaph's answer when the time comes. So, as long as Lion was a person who spent time on the island, he doesn't need to tell any more of Lion's past than that. If this is true... In a way, it might have felt like some sort of divine punishment to Kinzo. He spends so much time and effort trying to make an heir, and just when he thinks he's got the perfect solution with Natsuhi, the child and the mother both die at the same time. Now that he has nothing left, he can only brood for years and years about his sin. It's no surprise that he eventually wanted nothing more from life than to apologize to Beatrice and her child for what he did.
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2010-12-06, 16:10 | Link #19509 |
Miss Kimi
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Residing as the 18th guest of Rokkenjima
Age: 28
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Now there is a chapel mechanism. Boy, have I missed alot.
Gimme a quick recap, all I know is it's something on the chapel door, right? And that if you do the up, down, right, left thingy to it, does another door open rather than the door you're activating it on? You guys are making it sound very positive, so has there been confirmation its real?
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2010-12-06, 16:23 | Link #19510 |
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It's a device built into the inscription over the door of the chapel, allegedly. Proper manipulation of the device opens a descending passageway along the rear perimeter of the chapel (I believe it's around the back, anyway, I forget specifically). A few other things change (the lions) to indicate that the mechanism worked.
The point is, it's a somewhat cumbersome device, so it can't just be Kinzo's method for entering and leaving his gold storage room because there's no way his paranoid wife wouldn't have eventually found him standing on a ladder outside the chapel. Furthermore, according to ep7, there exists a way into the room that isn't dependent on the chapel mechanism. Mind you, all of this could be B.S. if ep7 is, but the way it's presented certainly makes us want to believe very strongly that it's the epitaph solution. @chronotrig: The problem there is in the 1950s he doesn't know if Beatrice will be found out, or if one of his kids will turn out not to disappoint him. Perhaps one becomes a business genius and thus an obvious choice of Ushiromiya heir; his love for Beatrice needn't change, he can always will ownership of the money to her line in secret, and be happy that way. The entire notion of the epitaph solution being used to determine who should be heir to the family and the gold (remember, the two don't really need to be linked) is so far removed from what Kinzo would have been thinking about in the early 50s. Even if he was planning some kind of long-term incest plan, that makes a lot of assumptions about Beatrice-2 that would be tough to know so far in advance. Plus, if Natsuhi has no difficulty bearing a child (for argument's sake, a male) in the late 50s/early 60s, there is a clear visible heirship descent through Krauss's family and I doubt very strongly that Krauss is going to roll over for his dad's secret family. Lion only works because he slips so perfectly into the family just ahead of Jessica. So really, unless you want to get even deeper into conspiracies like "Kinzo made sure Natsuhi was infertile through drugs until his preferred heir was born, then let her off the drugs so she could have Jessica," I don't see how he could possibly be chessmastering all of this into place so perfectly that a chapel he built thirty years before will oh-so-conveniently play a role he can't have envisioned it would play. Which seems to be what Lion's world is suggesting; "Oh, Kinzo had the epitaph ready to go at any time somebody questioned the headship, he'd just toss that down and let whoever solve it, even though Lion was absolutely and without question the heir he wanted." Does that make the slightest bit of sense?
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2010-12-06, 16:28 | Link #19511 |
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Spoiler for Snip:
Or, Shannon was just falling in love with George by 1984, but then Yasu learned about whatever is wrong with her body and developed the furniture complex and thus Shannon began holding back, but she managed to overcome it later due to love, or whatever.
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2010-12-06, 16:35 | Link #19512 |
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My basic thesis would be:
Therefore, I would argue one of the following must be true:
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2010-12-06, 17:04 | Link #19514 | ||||
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In other words, I don't think he's looking for a Beatrice-line successor because he thinks they'll be better at business than his kids. I think there's a good argument to be made that that isn't even a factor in his calculations. Of course, he wants to train the successor as well as possible, but that is only of secondary importance. Quote:
And, if the Beatrice 2 red guts scene is true, things didn't go as Kinzo planned. Beatrice 2 only thought of him as a Father, and didn't want to go any further than that. Yes, Kinzo took a long-term risk, but he's been taking risks all his life. Fortunately, he's clever enough that most of his risks pay off. Quote:
In other words, in the world where Lion survives, the chapel and the epitaph aren't really needed. He got lucky with Natsuhi and managed to use her as a shortcut. But in Yasu's world, this lucky plan B didn't play out. This is good, because we never hear about this plan B until the core arcs. His original plan was probably something similar to what happened in Yasu's world. He told Natsuhi that Lion was a Fukuin kid, so he probably planned to raise Lion as a Fukuin kid from the beginning. Of course, he couldn't trust a kid to keep his secret, so he probably wouldn't tell Lion the truth until he reached a certain age. We know Kinzo has a boyish mind, and this is a classic King Arthur story. The epitaph is the sword in the stone. Quote:
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2010-12-06, 17:05 | Link #19515 |
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Kinzo isn't that stupid (and even in instances where he might otherwise be, I don't think he's that stupid on this particular matter). Moreover, it's out of character for everyone else. Bern is talking nonsense.
EDIT: Also, why make the riddle something his kids could seemingly easily solve (when they actually sit down to do it) if he just wants to cheat and ensure Lion wins either way? Again, "pride" is not a good enough answer. Kinzo's risks are calculated. He would not be as powerful as he is if he were that impulsive.
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2010-12-06, 17:18 | Link #19516 | |
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He has enough reason to resent them just because of who their mother was. Add on his contempt over what they've made of their lives so far. Emotions are powerful. Even smart people can fall prey to them. One more point. In Yasu's world, the siblings were unable to solve the epitaph for well over a year, even though they all tried very hard separately. If 1984-6 was the time he or Genji intended to have Lion "solve" the epitaph, then his measure of his children was pretty darn good. Regardless of the reason, the siblings don't solve the epitaph until the last second. Of course, he wanted to make it nearly solvable for them. If it was something so obscure that no one could ever solve it, then Lion coming up with the solution would look very suspicious, and the other family members would feel cheated. The sword in the stone works best if it looks like everyone was an inch away from solving it when Lion comes around and finds the answer first.
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2010-12-06, 17:23 | Link #19518 | |||
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Truly, Kinzo began from nothing. Quote:
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And Lion is at a considerable disadvantage in solving the epitaph. If we go by Eva's solving process in ep3, she has a much better chance than Yasu does without cheating. Genji makes sure Yasu wins. Does Lion even know the hint that Yasu gets?
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2010-12-06, 17:24 | Link #19519 |
阿賀野型3番艦、矢矧 Lv180
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Will was mentioning something was odd with the sitting order: Jessica told the order she would get if Lion doesn't exist, hence why she was left puzzled when she put a second thought.
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2010-12-06, 17:31 | Link #19520 | |
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Quote:
Overall, does it give any beneficial clues?
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