2010-03-01, 03:40 | Link #5923 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Nov 2003
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To be honest, I don't think there's much more to say. I love Athena, he loves Hina, and there's really nothing wrong with either choice. Both of us knew going into this that our tastes are very different, so things can get sort of heated, but I honestly had a lot of fun. So thanks, Mentar.
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2010-03-01, 05:06 | Link #5924 | |
Banned
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Hamburg
Age: 54
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There were a couple of things I realized during the discussion: 1) It's surprisingly easy to lose the emotional detachment during the discussion. I feel a genuine _strong_ empathy for Hina, and it _angers_ me when I feel she's unfairly criticized or not given her due. The same will hold true for others and their respective favorites. 2) This is the real revelation for me: My ethical beliefs are clearly not shared by a large amount of people, to a degree that I did not expect to see. Obviously, genuine and honest selfishness leading to success is preferred to doubt-ridden self-reflected altruism. Even more: Eventually deciding against yourself and for others is seen as a "weakness", a flaw. This is the exact opposite of how I see it, but seen in this light, it makes alot of assessments and opinions on this board much more clear. A question to those who took the Athena side in this argument and are willing to say: How many of you come from the US? |
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2010-03-01, 09:45 | Link #5926 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Feb 2008
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I still think Hina should have her own manga. Let's be honest, she's not the main character in HnG, yet she's the hero(ine) of the story. Hata should just give her a story of her own. She just moves on from Hayate to find someone who really values what she does, and who loves her in return for those things, and for who she is. In fact, since yuri sells so well these days, perhaps Hata should set up Ayumu as Hina's love interest. One day Hina would realise how much suppport and encouragement she's received from Ayumu, and then, just as in the Revolve side story, Hina would realise she's actually bi, and she'd fall for Ayumu. The story would be about Hina's heroic adventures and her love with Ayumu. That, my friends, is what I call instant success.
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2010-03-01, 14:59 | Link #5929 | |
Member
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: France
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Mentar is certainly right: there is some cultural gap. As for me, I am from Europe. Our difference do not matter as long as we try to understand them and keep an open-minded attitude. I agree too that Hina deserves her own story. But I heard the Autor planned that at the beginning. He planned to relate the story about two sister (Hina and Yukiji). Nevertheless this story is really nice as it is right now. Well, I sympathise with Hina, but not as much as Nagi. Nagi, at the present time, does not have a single chance to end with Hayate, because she is still a little girl. |
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2010-03-01, 16:01 | Link #5930 | |||
Senior Member
Join Date: Nov 2003
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Is accepting when someone offers you help selfish? Is foregoing a promise to help a friend with her love life because you've fallen in love with the same boy altruistic? I don't think the characters can be broken down so clearly on one side or the other. Me wanting Athena to "win" is based on a lot of different factors. I honestly like the romantic dynamic she and Hayate have together. Their feelings are mutual, which is a big one for me. (I find it hard these days to root for a romance that ignores so much of one character's lack of feelings for the sake of making another character happy, but I understand many people don't have that problem.) And, most importantly, I like to reward characters for their honesty and courage, which is also a virtue. Athena's feelings are her own. Even expressing them to Hayate doesn't mean that they will be acknowledged, because she doesn't know that he feels the same way about her. As far as she knows, he left her ten years ago, and doesn't feel anything romantically for her any more. Opening yourself up to someone, making yourself vulnerable to them is a high form of trust. And for a character like Athena, who doesn't seem to want to rely on anyone, it must be even harder to finally break down and admit "I want to be with you." So basically, it's not that I want to see selfishness rewarded and think altruism is a flaw, it's that I admire Athena's brand of courage, and think what I see as Hina's retreat in the face of uncertain victory is a flaw. Well, I'm from the US, but I don't think that has too much to do with it. Of course, culture plays a part, but I don't think Athena's fans come solely from the United States. I know in the Hayate complaints thread on 2ch, they were blaming Athena's popularity on fujoshi...
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2010-03-02, 05:53 | Link #5932 | |||||||
Banned
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Hamburg
Age: 54
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I see several people - including you - weighing the genuine announcement of noble intentions as a praiseworthy deed in itself, as an indication of a noble character, even when they are factually discarded later. Moreover, the discarding of them is subsequently rather lauded than criticized, as "honest" and the likes. Success makes sexy. She is rewarded for this, and people are happy about that. And I think I recognize this pattern of behavior. In my life I've been traveling for quite a bit, and I've seen this trait _particularly_ in Americans. The focus on personal success, no matter how. The glorification of worthy goals, the celebration of lofty announcements, and the shruggy discarding of them if they're in the way of being successful later. And - finally - the indifference towards those who fall by the wayside as victims of the success. Their own fault for not trying hard enough. This - in my life experience - is a very typical mindset I've found in countless Americans. Not all, of course, but in a much higher percentage than in any other cultural circle I've visited. And that's why I was curious if those people who seem to exhibit this mindset happen to be mostly Americans on this board, too Quote:
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I do agree that BEFORE learning of Athena, it was her fear of losing that precluded her from confessing, along with her self-consciousness about her lacking femininity. But I didn't find this aspect of her as tiring as it obviously was to you. |
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2010-03-02, 06:31 | Link #5933 | ||||
Senior Member
Join Date: Nov 2003
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I guess I'm still a little confused. Are you blaming her for not dying? Quote:
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So it's not that I admire Athena for being a naturally open person, I admire her for not being a naturally open person, but for finally taking that plunge and being honest. Just like how you value Hina's heroic nature because it comes with an inner struggle, I value Athena's honesty because it comes with an inner struggle. Let me put it this way. Would you have called Hina selfish if she had confessed to Hayate before she knew his feelings about Athena, hypothetically? No, that's not what I'm trying to say. What I'm saying is that when it comes to Hayate, Hina sort of wants a "sure win" before she puts herself on the line and confesses, meaning her own pride and fear are more important to her than perhaps making a romantic connection to Hayate...until it's too late. Or to put it another way, she was more afraid of rejection than she wanted to be together with Hayate. Being afraid of rejection is natural, so I don't really "blame" Hina for it, per say, but I do think it was the flaw that lead to her own undoing.
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2010-03-02, 07:07 | Link #5934 | |
Snape: "I hate Potter!"
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Australia
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Entertainment is all about watching someone change, whether in their personality, abilities or a mixture of both. Without it you might as watch a chair, well still be a chair...
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2010-03-02, 07:20 | Link #5935 |
*ignoring*
Join Date: Aug 2009
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I don't really mind Hina being an altruist since I'm not really concerned. As far as altruism goes, perhaps I shouldn't have pitied her as much since she may have cried the tears of joy when watching Hayate and Athena embraced one another knowing their story of of 10 years.
Or was she cry the tears of sadness after Athena was saved because she realized that she couldn't obtain the happiness she thought Athena was having? Personally, I'd like her more if she cried the tears of sadness. |
2010-03-02, 07:50 | Link #5936 | |||||||
Banned
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Hamburg
Age: 54
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"It was fine... if you never called out my name again." (I can bear being without you) "If someone had given you the happiness I couldn't give you." (If you're happy, it's fine) "I was fine... if you never called out my name again." (I can bear it) "If you were happy... I was fine..." (Owwww! I can bear it...) "I was..." (Owwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww!) "I was..." (It hurts!! *beginning to cry*) "I want to see you..." (No, I can't bear it after all.) "I want to see you... Hayate" (I want to be with you!) "Call out my name once more..." (Save me!) "Call out my name..." (SAVE ME!) "HAYATEEEE!!!!" Quote:
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However, fairness dictates to mention that dedication to Hayate is no unique selling point of Athena. Ayumu, Hina and Nagi all qualify for that, aswell. Quote:
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But overall I agree with you, with the minimal qualification "her fear of rejection took so long to overcome that her time window ran out". Her desire to be with Hayate DID eventually overcome her fears. Only, it was too late by then. All "for the time being", of course. I'm not quite willing to throw in the towel just yet *grin* |
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2010-03-02, 10:01 | Link #5937 | |
*ignoring*
Join Date: Aug 2009
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I have no doubt that Hayate or Athena can and will easily sacrifice for one another. But what she really wanted, her innermost desire, was to be saved by Hayate and to be by his side, rather than dying. That was her honesty. I don't really see the reversal of Athena stopping the process. I think when Athena decided and prevented herself from meeting Hayate, which she most certainly did, while he was so close was MUCH more painful for her than to die for him. |
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2010-03-02, 10:14 | Link #5938 | |
Banned
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Hamburg
Age: 54
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Look. I know you're the most dedicated Athena shipper on this board. But please just accept the boundaries of logic once in a while.
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And the excerpt I quoted proved that she is contradicting herself within seconds. First, it was okay never to hear Hayate say her name again, and a few seconds later, she begs for exactly that. THIS IS A CHANGE. She does not really want to sacrifice herself. She wants to be with Hayate after all. That's what this whole scene is about. It's the whole POINT. |
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2010-03-02, 10:44 | Link #5939 | ||
*ignoring*
Join Date: Aug 2009
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No, the point was "willing" to sacrifice, and Athena was "willing" to do it. Admit it, no one "want" to die, but rather to be with their love ones. Last edited by zodanhko; 2010-03-02 at 10:58. |
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2010-03-02, 11:22 | Link #5940 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Feb 2008
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I don't see the problem with her change at the end, and I don't see how would that undermine the sacrifice she had done for Hayate. She could have met him before, easily, but she rather put his happiness above her own. She did the same thing twice in this arc: the first time when they met again, and the second time when Hayate got knocked out by Machina. In the end, when Midas was almost at full control, and she was about to die, I think it was only natural for her to be unable to bear her own feelings, and to desire some happiness.
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comedy, shounen |
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