Taiwan: Is democracy and military the only reasons Taiwan is not a part of China?

[Fireminer]

So, has anyone here been learning in Taiwan? I wonder what do they teach about Nationalism. The mainland children got educated about this very early.

[Vallen Chaos Valiant]

Originally Posted by Fireminer

So, has anyone here been learning in Taiwan? I wonder what do they teach about Nationalism. The mainland children got educated about this very early.

Back when I was in Primary school there, the brainwashing is essentially the same type as you might expect; the text books use insulting slang in referral to Mainland Chinese and the Japanese. Dictator style photo of Chiang in every classroom (though Chiang was long dead at that point).
The Tia-men Square incident was a massive propaganda event in Taiwan, with the whole school learning to sing a song that specifically was created to marks the event and mock the mainland for being evil. And of course flag merchandise sold everywhere.

Also, Taiwanese dialect was suppressed in preference to mandarin. It was not taught in schools and people just learn them from their grand parents. There was a cultural divide between the people who were in Taiwan before the civil war, and Chiang's people who retreated there after losing the Chinese civil war. (I can't prove it, but apparently Chiang's army did some indiscriminate purging up and down the island at some stage, with machineguns. So bad blood all around)

It was several years after I left the place that they started allowing Taiwanese to be spoken on TV. About the same time the anti-Japanese propaganda was dropped as it wasn't working. (Taiwan was given to Japan by Imperial China. Japan colonised it. But then after WW2 Japan was in no position to argue when Chiang demanded that they get the island back. Families were broken apart when parents get deported. The anti-Japanese propaganda went on for years, but it never took hold. Probably because Chiang was worse than the previous Japanese rulers in comparison.)

[Fireminer]

A bit more curious, but what about Soong Ching-ling? Taiwanese still considers Sun Yat-sen as the nation father, right? But what about his wife, the one who stay back? What is Taiwanese people's opinion about her?

[Crusify_me]

Originally Posted by SoldierOfDarkness

No I meant that "IF" they were to reunite.

And that's a big "IF"

Military invasion, well there's nothing to be gained from it anyways so chances are they'll just continue the status quo unless something dramatically changes the political landscape.

This is likely the case.
It really is a race between the fall of the Communist party or the time when China's standard of living reaches a point where it's actually more beneficial for Taiwan to become a province of China.

[Esclair]

It's unlikely there will be a military invasion unless the communist party is on the verge of collapse in China and they start doing irrational things.

China is currently mounting an 'economic' invasion by tying Taiwan's economy to itself. It has made significant steps towards this goal in the last couple of years. As the economies become more intertwined there would be more cross straight relations between the two people, which would eventually lead to a more friendly atmosphere and open the doors for more connections to be made. If this continues 2-3 generations down the line it's possible that anti-China sentiments would be mostly gone as the newer generations would be born into a heavily mixed economy and culture while the older generations will have died of old age.

[Vallen Chaos Valiant]

Originally Posted by Esclair

It's unlikely there will be a military invasion unless the communist party is on the verge of collapse in China and they start doing irrational things.

China is currently mounting an 'economic' invasion by tying Taiwan's economy to itself. It has made significant steps towards this goal in the last couple of years. As the economies become more intertwined there would be more cross straight relations between the two people, which would eventually lead to a more friendly atmosphere and open the doors for more connections to be made. If this continues 2-3 generations down the line it's possible that anti-China sentiments would be mostly gone as the newer generations would be born into a heavily mixed economy and culture while the older generations will have died of old age.

That still doesn't say anything about Taiwan losing its sovereignty. The fact is the Chinese population don't understand why Taiwan is so against unification, because the Chinese don't understand the idea that Taiwanese citizens want self determination.

I mean, the Chinese don't vote for their leaders, so naturally they don't see any reason Taiwan should either. "Why don't you join us so you can be just like us!" is just alien to Taiwan.

By your own argument, maybe America should annex Canada. They are next to each other and culturally similar. So why not just invade and take it over? "Friendly" doesn't involve threat of violence and invasion. You can't turn a friend into a slave no matter how friendly you are.

[aohige]

Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant

"Why don't you join us so you can be just like us!" is just alien to Taiwan.

Wait, are we talking China or America?


The "our way" syndrome seems to be a prevalent illness in big nations in general.

[Vallen Chaos Valiant]

Originally Posted by aohige

Wait, are we talking China or America?


The "our way" syndrome seems to be a prevalent illness in big nations in general.

I just have trouble understanding Esclair's argument. From where I stand, Taiwan gains nothing from becoming a province of China. And it doesn't matter how much China modernise or become rich and powerful, it still doesn't benefit Taiwan in any way. Should Taiwan trade with China? Why not, do it. But I fail to see how China improving as a nation in a hypothetical future, would have any relevant in trying to take away one's sovereignty.
If China becomes a better, less threatening neighbour, that is a good thing. But being a better neighbour doesn't give you the right to take my house.

[Crusify_me]

Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant

I just have trouble understanding Esclair's argument. From where I stand, Taiwan gains nothing from becoming a province of China. And it doesn't matter how much China modernise or become rich and powerful, it still doesn't benefit Taiwan in any way. Should Taiwan trade with China? Why not, do it. But I fail to see how China improving as a nation in a hypothetical future, would have any relevant in trying to take away one's sovereignty.
If China becomes a better, less threatening neighbour, that is a good thing. But being a better neighbour doesn't give you the right to take my house.

Lol Valiant I think I remember you from two years ago when you commented on my thread which I posted right after the 2012 Taiwan Elections.

[Esclair]

Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant

That still doesn't say anything about Taiwan losing its sovereignty. The fact is the Chinese population don't understand why Taiwan is so against unification, because the Chinese don't understand the idea that Taiwanese citizens want self determination.

I mean, the Chinese don't vote for their leaders, so naturally they don't see any reason Taiwan should either. "Why don't you join us so you can be just like us!" is just alien to Taiwan.

By your own argument, maybe America should annex Canada. They are next to each other and culturally similar. So why not just invade and take it over? "Friendly" doesn't involve threat of violence and invasion. You can't turn a friend into a slave no matter how friendly you are.

America doesn't want Canada though, while China REALLY wants Taiwan for one reason or another.

Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant

I just have trouble understanding Esclair's argument. From where I stand, Taiwan gains nothing from becoming a province of China. And it doesn't matter how much China modernise or become rich and powerful, it still doesn't benefit Taiwan in any way. Should Taiwan trade with China? Why not, do it. But I fail to see how China improving as a nation in a hypothetical future, would have any relevant in trying to take away one's sovereignty.
If China becomes a better, less threatening neighbour, that is a good thing. But being a better neighbour doesn't give you the right to take my house.

The current population of Taiwan doesn't want unification, but generation after the next, or even after that, might have a different opinion depending on how much influence China exerts. Hence why I was calling it an 'invasion'. It's a multi-step long term attack using economic as well as cultural weapons.

The first step would be economic integration, which China is currently proceeding with. Once the economies are linked enough, the next step would be to use this economic foundation to get Taiwan to change its immigration/naturalization policies towards mainland Chinese. This would probably be the key milestone. If Taiwan lets this happen then I think they've pretty much lost the battle for independence. Taiwain, like all first world countries, is facing a population decline, especially towards the younger population. With the immigration policies changed, and with such huge economic ties, it'd seem natural for mainland Chinese immigrants to move. It'd start slowly at first, but as people get used to the idea the percentage of 'integrated' mainland Chinese would increase. After a certain point, there would be enough of them to have a sway in the overall political atmosphere. So in relating to your house analogy, it'd be akin to the neighbor marrying their daughter into your household, and now the grand kids are children of 'both' families. Once the grand parents and parents die, the kids then decide to become part of the mother's family because she has been indoctrinating them this entire time.

We're basically watching the start of this 'invasion' happen right now. I think we'll probably getting to the immigration step within 10 years, and it'll be interesting to see how that plays out.

[Fireminer]

What about Mongolia and Far West area of China? Have you ever think that if China got Taiwan back, it would also a propaganda win for them to the minor nomad ethnic, like "Hey, even someone rich like Taiwanese join us, so why don't you do it?"

And, never trust Chiang's army. Last time they steped onto Vietnamese soil, they brought nothing but mysery.

[Ithekro]

Originally Posted by Esclair

America doesn't want Canada though, while China REALLY wants Taiwan for one reason or another.



The current population of Taiwan doesn't want unification, but generation after the next, or even after that, might have a different opinion depending on how much influence China exerts. Hence why I was calling it an 'invasion'. It's a multi-step long term attack using economic as well as cultural weapons.

The first step would be economic integration, which China is currently proceeding with. Once the economies are linked enough, the next step would be to use this economic foundation to get Taiwan to change its immigration/naturalization policies towards mainland Chinese. This would probably be the key milestone. If Taiwan lets this happen then I think they've pretty much lost the battle for independence. Taiwain, like all first world countries, is facing a population decline, especially towards the younger population. With the immigration policies changed, and with such huge economic ties, it'd seem natural for mainland Chinese immigrants to move. It'd start slowly at first, but as people get used to the idea the percentage of 'integrated' mainland Chinese would increase. After a certain point, there would be enough of them to have a sway in the overall political atmosphere. So in relating to your house analogy, it'd be akin to the neighbor marrying their daughter into your household, and now the grand kids are children of 'both' families. Once the grand parents and parents die, the kids then decide to become part of the mother's family because she has been indoctrinating them this entire time.

We're basically watching the start of this 'invasion' happen right now. I think we'll probably getting to the immigration step within 10 years, and it'll be interesting to see how that plays out.

Would a similar idea go towards the United States of Mexico towards the United States of America? As the population in the southwest and west becomes more and more Mexican culturally, would it make sense for either that part of the country join Mexico or for Mexico become part of the USA?

[Xellos-_^]

Originally Posted by Esclair

America doesn't want Canada though

you never listen the neocons talking. They are more then happy if a canadian provience decide to join the us.

while China REALLY wants Taiwan for one reason or another.

the reasons are pretty clear.


China lost Taiwan to japan after the 1st Sino-japanese war. It was NOT given to Japan. Mainland Chinese consider Taiwan to be stolen form them.
One of the main goal or both ROC and CCP has been the unification of China. That means every piece of Chinese Territory, that was consider stolen due losing wars and unequal treaties.

[Vallen Chaos Valiant]

Originally Posted by Xellos-_^

One of the main goal or both ROC and CCP has been the unification of China. That means every piece of Chinese Territory, that was consider stolen due losing wars and unequal treaties.

And yet the ROC has now ceased to be used and is just Taiwan now. The original ROC wanted unification of China, but the old men are dead now. The Taiwanese people endured and finally got left in peace once the last of Chiang's men had dropped dead. Now CCP wants to demand the same thing that ROC wanted. But why would Taiwan agree to it? We didn't agree to it when the ROC tried to force the idea on us, why would we agree to it now when the same exact rejected policy is endorsed by China?

And Esclair's post is frightening. He admits that Taiwan doesn't want reunification, but then posts a suggestion of how to subvert the willof the entire island in the next few generations. As if somehow, the will of the people don't matter.

And that's why Taiwan doesn't want anything to do with China. China is telling us that free will is just a fad, and that with enough brainwashing and money I can have my mind surgically cut out and have CCP insert into my skull. No, NO, NOOO. I don't care what China plan to do, because it doesn't have anything to do with what Taiwan wants. And just because the CCP is used to forcing their rules on unwilling populace, it doesn't mean Taiwan would want to join them.

It'd start slowly at first, but as people get used to the idea the percentage of 'integrated' mainland Chinese would increase. After a certain point, there would be enough of them to have a sway in the overall political atmosphere. So in relating to your house analogy, it'd be akin to the neighbor marrying their daughter into your household, and now the grand kids are children of 'both' families. Once the grand parents and parents die, the kids then decide to become part of the mother's family because she has been indoctrinating them this entire time.

Taiwan is familiar with indoctrination thank you. Chiang's people did that for generations. I don't understand why you think China would succeed where Chiang failed.

You know what? I would believe you if you think China can make Taiwan hate Japan as much as China does. The Taiwanese people are well trained in smelling bullshit by experience.

[ganbaru]

Originally Posted by Xellos-_^

you never listen the neocons talking. They are more then happy if a canadian provience decide to join the us.

They really want only Alberta, the rest of the country is probably too liberal for their taste .

[SaintessHeart]

Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant

You know what? I would believe you if you think China can make Taiwan hate Japan as much as China does. The Taiwanese people are well trained in smelling bullshit by experience.

Which Chinese isn't.

First the royalists from the last dynasty, then Chiang, then the various political leaders from 1950 onwards even after Tiananmen, and most recently Bo Xilai. It is always some sort of megalomaniac struggle within the ruling conclave with the Chinese people as a tool.

Now they are trying to include the Chinese internationally.

[Xellos-_^]

Originally Posted by ganbaru

They really want only Alberta, the rest of the country is probably too liberal for their taste .

they don't know that, they just see a lot of white people.

these are the same people threaten to move to Canada when health care act was pass because of socialism.

[Seitsuki]

Originally Posted by SaintessHeart

First the royalists from the last dynasty, then Chiang, then the various political leaders from 1950 onwards even after Tiananmen, and most recently Bo Xilai. It is always some sort of megalomaniac struggle within the ruling conclave with the Chinese people as a tool.

The biggest piece of bullshit I've always had a problem with is that for a government which was ostensibly opposed to fascism they sure do share a prospensibility to hang the picture of a mass murderer all over the place. And people are just fine with it.

At least Stalin didn't...oops....

[aohige]

Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant

I just have trouble understanding Esclair's argument. From where I stand, Taiwan gains nothing from becoming a province of China. And it doesn't matter how much China modernise or become rich and powerful, it still doesn't benefit Taiwan in any way. Should Taiwan trade with China? Why not, do it. But I fail to see how China improving as a nation in a hypothetical future, would have any relevant in trying to take away one's sovereignty.
If China becomes a better, less threatening neighbour, that is a good thing. But being a better neighbour doesn't give you the right to take my house.

I understand, it was just a chuckle on how that whole "our way is better, why can't you be like us" mentality sounds all too familiar.

[aldw]

Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant

And yet the ROC has now ceased to be used and is just Taiwan now. The original ROC wanted unification of China, but the old men are dead now. The Taiwanese people endured and finally got left in peace once the last of Chiang's men had dropped dead. Now CCP wants to demand the same thing that ROC wanted. But why would Taiwan agree to it? We didn't agree to it when the ROC tried to force the idea on us, why would we agree to it now when the same exact rejected policy is endorsed by China?

And Esclair's post is frightening. He admits that Taiwan doesn't want reunification, but then posts a suggestion of how to subvert the willof the entire island in the next few generations. As if somehow, the will of the people don't matter.

And that's why Taiwan doesn't want anything to do with China. China is telling us that free will is just a fad, and that with enough brainwashing and money I can have my mind surgically cut out and have CCP insert into my skull. No, NO, NOOO. I don't care what China plan to do, because it doesn't have anything to do with what Taiwan wants. And just because the CCP is used to forcing their rules on unwilling populace, it doesn't mean Taiwan would want to join them.

Taiwan is familiar with indoctrination thank you. Chiang's people did that for generations. I don't understand why you think China would succeed where Chiang failed.

You know what? I would believe you if you think China can make Taiwan hate Japan as much as China does. The Taiwanese people are well trained in smelling bullshit by experience.

Frankly this pan-Green BS is no different than all the Neo-con crap et al in the US, particularly since this notion of "they are not us" is essentially a reinforcement of the Japanese political indoctrination of the Imperial period being presented as "will of the people". Ultimately it doesn't matter what as such subjective notions can will be changed, preferably peacebly but can be by force if necessary.

As there is some selective editing of posts by the moderators, I'll make this short:

Ultimately reunification is not the notion of being subject but being part of a greater whole, no more than Texas being part of the US for instance. It is telling the underlying ideological prejudices and presumptions being made about "will of the people" or "sovereignty" is being made without even realizing it. It is hardly a strictly dichotomous situation to begin with.