[Game] Umineko - Spoilers, Theories, Interpretations

[AuraTwilight]

I'm not sure if you're joking or not but, in case you aren't, this sounds more like wishful thinking than a realistic probability.
Kirye said she told him to write to the cousins. George is a cousin and one that he respects. Why shouldn't he write to him? It would have been more logic not writing to Ange or Maria as they were too small to read.

Because George is fat.

(and I'm joking)

Shannon has nothing to do with Asumu. Battler on the other side is Asumu's son. Kirye said she continued to hold a grudge against Asumu even after her death and she's not too fond of Battler due to this. Even Ange thinks it should have been hard for her mom to get along with Battler so well as it looked from the outside.

We've a pretty clear example of how a person who hates another can decide to move her grudge on that person's child in EP 4 when Kirye's sister wanted to kill Ange because she couldn't kill Kirye.

Really, Kirye merely stealing Battler's letter so as to ruin Battler's love story isn't as bad as Kasumi wishing to kill Ange for getting revenge.

Kirye is smart, she could have realized if Battler was writing to a servant it was because he held a special attachment to her, she might have noticed George was interested in Shannon and merely removed the letter from the others so as to have Asumu's son try the pain of losing the person you love to another one.

Shannon is merely an innocent bystander who found herself involved. I don't think Kirye harboured ill feelings toward her.

ALL the cousins played with Shannon, though. They grew up with her, so there's no special romantic implication in Battler writing to her unless she chooses to.

Not only that, but Kyrie has never been portrayed as that spiteful and petty. Regardless of what she felt, she was always nice to Battler and even spent friendly time alone with him, teaching him things like logic and whatnot.

And he makes Ange happy. And he's Rudolf's child. And he's never personally wronged her regardless of his mother.

Kasumi, meanwhile, is treated as Kyrie's foil. She's spiteful, petty, and shallow, and hates people for things that are entirely her own fault, and has no legitimate basis for any of her frustrations except she was lazy. She's everything Kyrie isn't.

[Sherringford]

Originally Posted by haguruma

Did he really do such a thing though?! Let's be honest, what he did was selling chocolate icecream, but accidently it was a flavour that not many people liked, maybe it missed sugar, for some the nuts he inserted were too much and others just expected the same flavour another place has on it's icecream but were annoyed when he didn't replicate it to the finest piece.

To me, it felt more like it was one of those ice creams that have more than one taste. At first, the fantasy was like hot chocolate on top of the vanilla mystery. We knew there was both hot chocolate and vanilla. But then after eating the vanilla, we found...uh, vanilla with strawberry. At this point, some people who liked vanilla went "hey awesome, this might be interesting" while the people who were in it just for the chocolate and the vanilla went "wait what is this strawberry doing here?"

I mean it's still ice cream, so he technically isn't lying when he says he is selling ice cream, but people who just glance over it assume it to be about chocolate and vanilla, not the strawberry.

Then the ice cream man went "hey hang on, I got this!" stuck his hand inside your ice cream, grossly took out the strawberry and left a messy vanilla and chocolate ice cream behind.

It looked gross as hell since he had just stuck his hand in it, but well he had to do it for his business to survive. I liked the taste before so I ventured another taste of it, and goddamn it just wasn't worth it because he took the strawberry out with his hands and now it's just gross.

Like it started off as the amazing ice cream with hidden strawberry, and it bragged about how amazing its hidden secret was. Then it took away the hidden secret and instead of an experimental ice cream it became a bland, below average ice cream that looks kinda green. And in the end I was like "dude I wasn't prepared for it but the strawberry thing kinda looked cool. But then you took it away from me so now it's just...bland and boring."

...So I guess what I'm saying is that the ice cream man should have either been more careful with his advertising or he should have stuck to his guts and run with the strawberry ice cream.

Also, you have to remember that in writing, it is the author's job to be aware of promises he made to the reader even if he isn't aware of what those promises were. If a large number of people thought he said something even though he didn't, it is his job as a professional to make it clear that it isn't like that. And if it's essential for his work that he makes no clarification, then well that's a pity but it's going to be a detriment to his work.

[haguruma]

Originally Posted by Sherringford

Also, you have to remember that in writing, it is the author's job to be aware of promises he made to the reader even if he isn't aware of what those promises were. If a large number of people thought he said something even though he didn't, it is his job as a professional to make it clear that it isn't like that. And if it's essential for his work that he makes no clarification, then well that's a pity but it's going to be a detriment to his work.

Of course. But that is the fate of any experimental piece of work, no matter if it turns out good or bad, it's going to go through an intense phase of being disliked first because people tend to prefer things they know and like. Taking a new approach to something is always a risk...and I totally agree with you when you say that Ryûkishi should have shown some balls and stuck with his initial idea.

Going back to content and away from reception...
Besides Our Confession, which will be a crucial point for the series, if only because it shows wether Ryûkishi has a good knowledge of mystery or if he just pretended to do so, I really wonder in how far Musôkyoku CROSS will say something important about the plot.
Yes, Ôgon Musôkyoku was mostly entertainment and comedy, but so far the leaked (and apparently real) Rosa ending pointed to something more substantial, which could actually tell something about the series.

Now I took a look at Black Battlers attacks and translated them in the Musôkyoku thread, but of course we can't talk as much about spoilers there as we can here. So here I go again:

黒き真実 (Black Truth)
黒き一撃 (Black Attack)
デスフィンガー (Deathfinger)
黒き急襲 (Black Assault)
認め難き真実によるチェックメイト (Checkmate by a hard to accept Truth)
全てを抉る黒き真実 (Black Truth which gouges everything)

Especially the Checkmate by a hard to accept Truth caught my eye, because it sounds pretty much like it refers to his attack where he commands Kyrie and Rudolph culprit.
So now the question is...will this actually be canon? And if it is, does this again denote that this is the truth?

[Jan-Poo]

Originally Posted by AuraTwilight

Oh shit Garfield just made a 4th wall joke. MAGIC.

Yes magic. And you know the strip is magical as soon as you see a talking cat.

Originally Posted by haguruma

Did he really do such a thing though?! Let's be honest, what he did was selling chocolate icecream, but accidently it was a flavour that not many people liked

I disagree on the "accidentally" part. And even if it was "accidental" he'd still be responsible, wouldn't he? And the point is not whether people like the new flavor or not. I explained it before: the mere fact you got something different than what you thought you were buying is by itself a problem whether the something different is something you still appreciate.
I think many of those that criticize umineko do not realize themselves that they wouldn't be as pissed if they didn't have certain expectations. However I consider Ryuukishi fully responsible for causing people to have those expectations.

Originally Posted by haguruma

But I think saying that his advertising was wrong is missing the point I think.

For the reasons explained before, I think it is a very important point to explain the vast discontent.

Originally Posted by haguruma

Concerning the story as a mystery story. First and foremost, what is a mystery story? Many here seem to apply rules that fit during the Golden Age of Western Detective Fiction, something that is long in the past. Even the term mystery has changed and has gotten so many different nuances...saying it has to fit THE definition of mystery is missing the whole variety of the genre.

And here is another problem. You can't be so naive to think that an author doesn't express his feelings and viewpoint through his narration. The red truth is a clear example of "word of god", if it wasn't meant to be that way then it was a bad joke, and a very bad one.
By repeatedly explaining rules about mysteries and showing discussions about how a mystery should be made to be interesting, fair and what not the readers will assume that the author is expressing his feeling and pov on the matter. If not, why going to all that length for explaining something you disagree with? In that case he should have let a negative character do that.
This could become a very complicated discussion about narrative in general, let's say it's the same issue about the "checkov gun".

All this introduction to conclude that in the end Ryuukishi himself explained what is a mystery in his own story. And then ignored most of his definition.

Let us also not forget that Ryuukishi wrote this:



So you can't really blame a reader for trusting that he'd provide a proper explanation to all the questions he raised in his story. That's what HE wrote and was a general statement. You would assume that a person doesn't change his mind so easily.

That kind of inconstance is Ryuukishi's main problem.

Originally Posted by haguruma

Concerning the game aspect, he never promised his game to be fair.

But he explained the relationship of trust between reader and author. If you have trust in the author, would you assume he's not being fair? And by creating a story that isn't fair isn't then the same as to say "you shouldn't have trusted me?"
Is what Ryuukishi really wants? Because I can hardly see how someone can trust him now.
I mean... you can't trust that he'd write something fair, and why would you trust that if you believe he didn't write something fair before?
So the point here is... is it worth reasoning about something that isn't fair? This is no longer a matter of solvable or unsolvable. Fairness is on a whole different level.

To use his boxer example. Maybe you can blame a boxer that doesn't want to fight a match that he isn't sure to win. But can you blame a boxer that doesn't want to fight a match that isn't fair? Hell no! A match has to be fair.

Originally Posted by haguruma

People seem to be mixing the fairness of a game and the idea that a mystery has to deliver a solution (probably derived from incomplete genre-knowledge) into one bowl and think that one entails the other, which is not what the game in Umineko is about.

I'm not mixing them. They are two completely distinct issues. I criticize both, and both are standalone in my opinion.

Originally Posted by UsagiTenpura

I tend to think that people who didn't think about it too much but still loved the serie enough to make cosplays, artworks, etc of it probably had ultimately the best attitude toward the serie. Maybe it's not the one Ryuukishi wanted however.

You nailed it, except remove the "maybe".

[haguruma]

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

I think many of those that criticize umineko do not realize themselves that they wouldn't be as pissed if they didn't have certain expectations. However I consider Ryuukishi fully responsible for causing people to have those expectations.

And I think that the expectations are based on a difference of genre-knowledge. Yes, Ryûkishi is fully responsible for overestimating his readership, thinking that there would be a great number of die-hard mystery fans who are also experimental among them. Even in Japan that number is so small, that even a former editor of FAUST has said that there should be only about 2000 such readers all over Japan, if not the world.
But, here in the West it's even more difficult, because when people see this kind of setting that Ryûkishi created (closed circle, locked rooms, description tricks) they expect something HIGHLY traditional along the lines of Christie, Carr or Van Dine. Ryûkishi cannot be made responsible for writing in a school that has already advanced in Japan way beyond the point of being a mere reproduction of that style, only because in the West it is not.

So you can't really blame a reader for trusting that he'd provide a proper explanation to all the questions he raised in his story. That's what HE wrote and was a general statement. You would assume that a person doesn't change his mind so easily.

That kind of inconstance is Ryuukishi's main problem.

Blame an author for changing his idea of mystery...I don't think that's fair though.

[Jan-Poo]

Originally Posted by haguruma

And I think that the expectations are based on a difference of genre-knowledge. Yes, Ryûkishi is fully responsible for overestimating his readership, thinking that there would be a great number of die-hard mystery fans who are also experimental among them. Even in Japan that number is so small, that even a former editor of FAUST has said that there should be only about 2000 such readers all over Japan, if not the world.
But, here in the West it's even more difficult, because when people see this kind of setting that Ryûkishi created (closed circle, locked rooms, description tricks) they expect something HIGHLY traditional along the lines of Christie, Carr or Van Dine. Ryûkishi cannot be made responsible for writing in a school that has already advanced in Japan way beyond the point of being a mere reproduction of that style, only because in the West it is not.

I'm not trying to criticize you in person but I'm kinda tired of seeing people rationalizing the discontent concerning umineko with that kind of argument. If you think the problem is because "the readers wanted a classic mystery" you are grossly misunderstanding the problem. The vast majority of the readers of umineko including its detractors didn't even know a thing about mystery and mystery rules before they started reading this story. And I'm fairly sure that good chunk of them (me included) appreciate works that aren't mysteries at all.

What you call "experimentation" here is not something that strays from the canon of mysteries but from the canon of narrative in general.
The kind of experimentation we are dealing with here breaks such fundamental rules that any person in its right mind could foresee the reaction to the same degree you could foresee the reaction of your average man when you "experiment" the effect of punching him in the face.


EDIT: I must add that your claim that the critiques come from people that don't like experimentation is hardly credible for the fact Umineko outed itself as experimental since very early phases. It is since long time that the fact that "Umineko has no reliable narrator" was understood and accepted. This was already a break with basic narrative rules (mind it narrative rules, not just mystery specific). So it's not experimentation itself that is criticized here, but bad experimentation.

Originally Posted by haguruma

Blame an author for changing his idea of mystery...I don't think that's fair though.

And suddenly "not being fair" becomes a bad thing, as it should. If you expect fairness from others you need to be fair with others.

[Kylon99]

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

I'm kinda tired of seeing people rationalizing the discontent concerning umineko with that kind of argument. *snip*

Sorry Jan, this has been going on for months and it's just that you're the last one to post... 8)

But can we all move the criticism and reflections on Umineko to a different thread? Someone suggested maybe the Overall Game Impressions thread which has gone unused for ... months. http://forums.animesuki.com/showthre...100276&page=16

I'd like to see this Spoilers, Theories and Interpretations thread talk about... well.. Spoilers, Theories and Interpretations once again. And while I could post in the per-episode thread, I'm limited by the actual episode that should be discussed; not to mention if I mention Battler Tooya in anything other than the EP8 thread, it'll be huge spoilers.

I'm no moderator, but I would assume that this is what this thread is supposed to be for.

[Jan-Poo]

Yes I guess it would best that way. However I cannot move my own post there at this point. If Haguruma or anyone else wants to respond then he can do that to that other thread?

Still I think it is very hard to separate the two issues because often people feel a proposed theory can't be correct because it'd be "bad writing". This kind of argument has been used over and over in thread many times.

So when you need to consider whether a theory is correct or not you need to take in account whether the author is capable to write something that is (or considered by some) "bad writing".


For example the issue of Yasu being a mass murderer is opposed by Auratwilight because then the story would be "morally repugnant", albeit he aknowledges at the same time that Ryuukishi is quite capable to write such a story.

[Kylon99]

I'm sure just saying that the story is 'morally repugnant' is fine; it's the pages and pages of multiple paragraphs digressing from the original theory or speculation afterwards where people try to defend or champion an opinion... that might be a bit... tedious. 8)


I wanted to respond to something Aura said about George that seemed really interesting:

Originally Posted by AuraTwilight

George does, repeatedly, say that magic had nothing to do with their love in EP2.

Why do I get the feeling this is some kind of huge clue? About George, that is...

By the way, how is this totally not proof of the Evil George Conspiracy? 8)
http://www.office-mk.co.jp/pcshop/im...o/GDC_SS05.jpg
＼( ｀▽)／

[Wanderer]

Originally Posted by haguruma

Yes, Ôgon Musôkyoku was mostly entertainment and comedy, but so far the leaked (and apparently real) Rosa ending pointed to something more substantial, which could actually tell something about the series.

So what's this Rosa ending?

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

By repeatedly explaining rules about mysteries and showing discussions about how a mystery should be made to be interesting, fair and what not the readers will assume that the author is expressing his feeling and pov on the matter. If not, why going to all that length for explaining something you disagree with? In that case he should have let a negative character do that.

Um. The "rules" of a fair play mystery weren't really a strong theme until episode 5, and in that episode they were employed and abused by a negative character.

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

Let us also not forget that Ryuukishi wrote this:

Spoiler for added for space:

This is interesting. I have never actually read the Higurashi sound novel. Is this line from an objective narrator or from a character's inner monologue?

[haguruma]

Originally Posted by Wanderer

So what's this Rosa ending?

I only know about it from reports either, because it was taken down from streaming sites quite quickly, but apparently it depicted:

Spoiler for for not released Musôkyoku:

Rosa killing Battler (in an EP2'ish scenario) and then running out into the night with Maria and screaming for Beatrice to appear before her again and if that means that she has betrayed the agreement they had

[Judoh]

Originally Posted by Wanderer

This is interesting. I have never actually read the Higurashi sound novel. Is this line from an objective narrator or from a character's inner monologue?

It's a letter to thank his readers after you complete the final episode of higurashi. It's Ryukishi speaking.

[Cao Ni Ma]

Originally Posted by Wanderer

So what's this Rosa ending?

Its very similar get up to EP2s game, you have Battler and Rosa teaming up and taking out everyone until the final encounter is Battler + Beatrice. Later Rosa shoots Battler in the face, takes Maria outside and starts to go insane calling out Beatrice, telling her that she completed her side of the deal. Nobody responds and Rosa says something like "So this is how it is... You've betrayed me as well...Maria run , run and dont stop " and then ends with a big "BEATORIIICHIIIEEEEE!"

e-Its really not clear which Beatrice she's mentioning here. It could be Beatrice 3 leading her to believe it was Beatrice 2. She's suppose to have a story mode with Beatrice as well, that should explain a little bit more on what Rosa thinks of the matter.

[AuraTwilight]

Yes magic. And you know the strip is magical as soon as you see a talking cat.

I submit that Jon Arbuckle is insane and doesn't actually exist. As evidence I indicate "Garfield without Garfield", the funniest thing ever made.

For example the issue of Yasu being a mass murderer is opposed by Auratwilight because then the story would be "morally repugnant", albeit he aknowledges at the same time that Ryuukishi is quite capable to write such a story.

Well, NO, that's not quite it. I legitimately think Yasu as the culprit creates several non-insignificant plotholes and fuckups throughout the narrative, and my ethical disgust with how she's treated is just the horrendous icing on the cake that removes my personal incentive to try and excuse or validate those plotholes and narrative mishaps with handwaves and the like.

[UsagiTenpura]

It's more like magic=meta then meta=magic, in Umineko's case at least.
None ever claimed that Battler introducing each characters in arc 1's first parts to a "beyond the fourth wall person" was magic, I think.

Something else entirely.
Suppose we go with the idea that "Yasu" only wrote the story (and didn't do actual murders outside said stories). I think it sorta sounds more and more likely that "Battler" was the one who had the idea for the story and that Yasu's the one who wrote it. I'm aware this isn't what the story tells us, but I think it probably fits more as Battler's sin then the mystery answer of arc 7 concerning it. (everyone dies in the story and it's Battler's fault as he's the one who was the inspiration to write said stories).

You know, like Ikuko and Tohya. One has ideas and the other makes it into a story.
In that logic it feels like the story ends up being far more simple...
Battler had some story ideas and threw them around. Years later Yasu wrote said stories in the hope that it reaches Battler, who created them.

It doesn't feel too different either from how "Maria created Sakutarou but Beatrice gave him shape".

[Wanderer]

Originally Posted by Judoh

It's a letter to thank his readers after you complete the final episode of higurashi. It's Ryukishi speaking.

But the image's file name is "minagoroshi.jpg". That's not the final episode.

[Jan-Poo]

In fact to be precise that comes from minagoroshi.
Every answer arc has a final commentary from Ryuukishi that unlocks when you finish them.

The one he wrote after Meakashi is what made me realize that Ryuukishi is quite capable to have written Umineko with Yasu as the culprit in mind while thinking it was possible to be sympathetic with her. And at that point I realized that Onikakushi is no exception. So yeah that's Ryuukishi for you.

Anyway while minagoroshi is not the last episode, at that point all the misteries have already been explained and what really remained to do in the last episode was to connect all the dots to show a clear picture of the whole story (which he accomplished perfectly in matsuribayashi).

If you consider this that commentary makes perfect sense, because minagoroshi is the chapter where he gives the final solutions to all the mysteries emerged until that point.

To be honest if you read it all you can see that he already thought it was sad to give all the solutions because then it was the end of the game, but those sentences in the screenshot prove that at that time he understood the necessity of it quite well. And it seems to even criticize stories that fail to recognize that necessity.

He wasn't really ambiguous there. But apparently he completely revised his position on the matter.

Well, NO, that's not quite it. I legitimately think Yasu as the culprit creates several non-insignificant plotholes and fuckups throughout the narrative,

Shrugs, don't expect me to read in your mind, I just reported what you wrote.
Still I believe that a culprit with a metamovent is fucked up enough by itself.

[Judoh]

Originally Posted by Wanderer

But the image's file name is "minagoroshi.jpg". That's not the final episode.

You're right I was mistaken about that. This staff room is of him explaining the thought behind writing Minagoroshi. At one point he describes the episode as being like an answer page to a book of riddles.

The final staff room isn't half bad either though. It starts off with his definition for a duel between the reader and writer there. Very interesting.

Spoiler for spoiler:

[Jan-Poo]

Yeah that one is also interesting, because it tells that he sees the game between the author and the reader not as a fight where the latter tries to understand the plot conceived by the former, but where both compete to find the better explanation to the mysteries. This is completely different from what Van Dine wrote in his essay.

However "better" here is quite arbitrary. How do you define "better"?

Anyway I don't think we should really overthink that, he might have wrote that at the moment, but he might have had a completely different approach for Umineko. In Keia's interview he basically said that there's only one possible solution.

[AuraTwilight]

Shrugs, don't expect me to read in your mind, I just reported what you wrote.

I've said it before, but you can be forgiven for missing it since this thread is fucking ungodly-large.