Athrun Zala vs. Char Aznable

[Flo]

Athrun fails because he lacks the lolicon awesomeness of Char.

Seig Zeon!

[wingdarkness]

hehe...I just love to see the support from the Seig Zeon! \o-faithful...

In just that one chant the echoes of Char can be heard^^...

Well, just finished watching the fourth episode of MSG...Char alone has impressed me a little as a pilot. He's probably the only thing that'll keep me watching MSG.

Even as early as episode 4 you should get a sense of Char's analytical coolness...

[Headspace]

Athrun being better than Char is just plain dumb. Char all the way

[The Desert Tiger]

Char hands down, he's a newtype so he would read Athrun like an open book.

Seig Zeon!

[tetsuo69]

Originally Posted by Flo

Athrun fails because he lacks the lolicon awesomeness of Char.

Seig Zeon!

meyrin dont counts?

[maohayato]

lets see,

we have char who is adult, can drink hard liquor, doesn't hesitate to kill off friends, is an ace pilot, has massive sex appeal.

athrun is still a kid/underage/minor.

scenario 1: hard liquor drinking contest
~ winner is char, because athrun can't legally drink booze

scenario 2: going to the casino for some gambling fun
~ winner is char, because athrun can't legally enter a casino and gamble

scenario 3: persuasion contest
~ winner char, he can persuade large masses of people. he got lead neo-zeon because of his massive charm and sex appeal XD

[Flo]

Originally Posted by tetsuo69

meyrin dont counts?

Let's see.

Meyrin has boobs
Meyrin does not have a appearance age of 14 and under

So no, Meyrin is not Loli and Athrun still fails

[4Tran]

Originally Posted by wingdarkness

Just explain why, you know I'll disagree, but I do enjoy hearing your reasonings...Why do you perfer Athrun to Char as a character? Be specific, you can also address my comments from the "disgraced" thread if you choose....

My reasoning isn't very in-depth at all. In MSG, Char is a pretty simple character: his primary motivation is basically revenge, and most of his actions are derived from that. Throughout MSG, Char does questionable things in order to achieve his objectives. I simply don't find any aspect of his character all that appealing. He did do a few noteworthy things, but they are mostly unsavory, so MSG Char gets a minus from me.

Quattro is quite a different cat. In Zeta, he's actually quite complex and quite flawed. Quattro grew a lot in the intervening years, and there's a lot to like here and a lot to dislike. I have no problems with his dislikable elements, so I end up enjoying Quattro's character quite a bit. The only thing questionable was his treatment of Haman. It needed a lot more fleshing out before it could make sense in the story. I think that his best character moment was when Camille told him that he had to speak with Reccoa. Quattro said that he would deal with her, but he never did. This scene helps Quattro get a big plus from me.

In CCA, Char undid everything that Quattro had learned in Zeta. This alone is enough for me to despise his character. However, even if we ignore all the inconsistencies, I still think that CCA Char is a poor character. Here, he is a charismatic leader, a pretty good tactician and a great mobile suit pilot. And everything else about him sucks. I think that it would be fair to call him a selfish, and egotistical moron. For me, Char is the worst character of note in CCA.

Originally Posted by wingdarkness

Also shouldn't that be Quattro to Alex Dino aswell?

No, there's no appreciable difference between Alex and Athrun.

[Gevurah]

What about Char in the Nightengale vs Athrun in IJ?

Personally I don't know too much about its abilities other than it's a beefed up Sazabi, but I would assume that IJ would be no less of a match for it.

[Demongod86]

I think that whatever advantage in piloting skills that char has, however great they may be, IJ is simply the superior suit. Sure, Sazabi can maneuver. IJ is a Lacus-built maneuver monster. IJ and SF are built on maneuverability because there is too much beam firepower not to do otherwise.

I'd also say not to count out Athrun as a pilot. SEED mode decisive Athrun can dish out some major pwnage.

Though characterwise, it's pretty easy to see that Char and Athrun are apples and oranges. Char is that flawed ambitious top-of-the-world guy while Athrun is more like a knight that's trying to find what the heck he's doing. But with a little Lacus dust, well, it's pwn pwn pwn time.

So I say Athrun...simply cuz I don't like Char's revenge issues.

[neodrag38]

So your argument hinges on the scenario being directed and written by Fukuda and his wife.

And I wouldn't exactly say that SEED mode Athrun has done anything that you could really call decisive. Since it still involves simply the overusage of badly constructed plot element that doesn't mean much in terms of actual tactical increase but simply looking cooler in a Kenshin rip off fashion.

And what exact revenge issues you speak of? Are you suggesting that Char should have let it go that his father and the dream he believed in was murdered/manipulated into a dictatorship lead by the murderer himself?

[Shinji103]

And here we go with "oh it's better but I won't explain how or why" from the local CE fanboy. How do you figure that I-J is a "maneuverability monster?" You gotta be kidding me. Of course it's far faster than grunt suits, it's a Gundam. Not to mention the grunt nerfed-ness in CE.

The Sazabi is clearly shown to possess high agility, mobility, and speed even against other highly mobile units like the Nu Gundam, due the abnormally large number of thrusters and maneuvering thrusters on it. I-J is fast, but only to grunt suit standards. When compared with other Gundams (that are actually fast, thus excluding stuff like Psycho and Destory ) its speed is a little higher than average.

It possesses much better equipment than the I-J with the Psycho Frame, the Psycommu system, and the funnels. It also has a much better set of rounded out equipment, for both ranged and close combat. I-J sbuilt mainly for close-combat and only has one beam rifle and two average-sized bema cannons, plus a beam boomerang, which isn't as much of a ranged weapon as a beam rifle/canon. Sazabi has 6 funnels, three missiles, a beam shotrifle, a beam spray cannon, a beam tomahawke that he can throw as a ranged weapon and which can take the shape of a large beam saber, and two beam sabers.

The beam shield is the only real piece of equipment that I-J has that's "better" than the Sazabi's equivalent. (due to CE suddenly getting an intelgence rush and creating something that took UC 50 years to create) But in the end, the beam shield on the I-J doesn't make much of a difference. This is because a beam shield is supposed to remove the need for a normal shield, thus offering more mobility due to less mass and lighter weight, but the I-J has a normal shield anyway, with two different weapons in it too, which weigh it down more. The second advantage is that the beam shield is better against solid weapons than a normal shield, but isn't as effective against heavy beams like the Sazabi's beam spray cannon, unless you're talking about a mega beam shield which is far more powerful, or combining the beam shiled energy with other beam shield, like in V Gundam. (the 3 Jamesguns combining their beam shields to gurad against Katejina's mobile suit's heavy beam cannon) Neither of these two situations apply to the I-J. Plus the beam shield can only block stuff from one direction like a normal shield. Thus it is no better against funnels than any normal shield.

[Coolrush]

Athrun gets a couple mobile suit sized decoy balloons and snipes Char as he engages the balloons. Athrun then goes home and has a nice laugh with Kira, Lacus, and Cagalli about how its fucking stupid that the UC can build all kinds of shit like the Psycho Frame, the Psycommu system, and funnels but still cant be bothered to upgrade their sensors to know the fucking difference between a balloon and a real mobile suit or a carriership.

.....

but seriously Athrun gives Char a good fight but Char wins the majority out of 10. Athrun ( and Kira for that matter) make Char and Amuro work for their wins though.

[neodrag38]

As if CE has much to say in comparison when a fleet is warned ahead of time about the usage of a weapon like that of Neo Genesis yet the fleet that knows about later than them does a better job of dodging.

[Phantom Lord]

Who said that the CE guys, especially Athrun won't fall for the same tatic with the decoy balloons?

[SNT1]

The Sazabi is clearly shown to possess high agility, mobility, and speed even against other highly mobile units like the Nu Gundam, due the abnormally large number of thrusters and maneuvering thrusters on it. I-J is fast, but only to grunt suit standards. When compared with other Gundams (that are actually fast, thus excluding stuff like Psycho and Destory ) its speed is a little higher than average.

o r l y? check 6:15 to 6:17 of GSD F+ ... you worded it as if I-J is a slo mofo compared to other gundams...

It possesses much better equipment than the I-J with the Psycho Frame, the Psycommu system, and the funnels. It also has a much better set of rounded out equipment, for both ranged and close combat. I-J sbuilt mainly for close-combat and only has one beam rifle and two average-sized bema cannons, plus a beam boomerang, which isn't as much of a ranged weapon as a beam rifle/canon. Sazabi has 6 funnels, three missiles, a beam shotrifle, a beam spray cannon, a beam tomahawke that he can throw as a ranged weapon and which can take the shape of a large beam saber, and two beam sabers.

Although Athrun isnt the more experienced of thetwo, I'm pretty sure he ain't stupid enough to let this battle be a battle of long range weapons... Again I still dont know what Sazabi's long range weapons are gonna do when most likely I-J will try to get in its face... It all comes down to sabers and funnels for big red...

This is because a beam shield is supposed to remove the need for a normal shield, thus offering more mobility due to less mass and lighter weight, but the I-J has a normal shield anyway, with two different weapons in it too, which weigh it down more

but nope, never saw I-J having maneuverability problems "cuz the shield weighed it down".. just, nope

The second advantage is that the beam shield is better against solid weapons than a normal shield, but isn't as effective against heavy beams like the Sazabi's beam spray cannon,

sooo.. where did we see I-Js beam shield fail? ...never? although he did block Shinn's (possibly nerfed) launcher, there is no proof that the beam shield can't take heavier shots....

but seriously Athrun gives Char a good fight but Char wins the majority out of 10. Athrun ( and Kira for that matter) make Char and Amuro work for their wins though.

qft... In the end Char's experience will probably = win, but it wont be a cakewalk. Guys here keep sayin I-J better than grunt, but a weak MS, and downplaying what Athrun and I-J can do... especially I-J.

[shaolo]

Originally Posted by SNT1

Although Athrun isnt the more experienced of thetwo, I'm pretty sure he ain't stupid enough to let this battle be a battle of long range weapons... Again I still dont know what Sazabi's long range weapons are gonna do when most likely I-J will try to get in its face... It all comes down to sabers and funnels for big red...

That's if Char use the tactic that I said earlier in the tread. If anyone forget it here it is.

I have a answer to Athrun's I-J melee attack against Char's Sazabi. When Athrun's I-J go in for a melee attack, have Char send out the funnels close around him. Now two things can happen, Athrun can keep his distance or he can go in for the attack. The exact moment those two clash, Char can do a Haman Karn on Athrun.
(Anyone who has seen the end of Zeta Gundam knows what I am talking about.)

[SNT1]

Originally Posted by shaolo

That's if Char use the tactic that I said earlier in the tread. If anyone forget it here it is.

I have a answer to Athrun's I-J melee attack against Char's Sazabi. When Athrun's I-J go in for a melee attack, have Char send out the funnels close around him. Now two things can happen, Athrun can keep his distance or he can go in for the attack. The exact moment those two clash, Char can do a Haman Karn on Athrun.
(Anyone who has seen the end of Zeta Gundam knows what I am talking about.)

that just verifies what I said... no long range gun will decide the outcome (I think funnels = midrange)... comes down to funnels and sabers.

If anything, IJ will be on the defensive (what else can he do?), and if he shoots down most or all of the funnels, then big red is on the defensive with less melee weapons...It doesnt matter if saz is ultra maneuverable... its still a big target... Question is can Athrun shoot down the funnels?

[Shinji103]

Originally Posted by SNT1

o r l y? check 6:15 to 6:17 of GSD F+ ... you worded it as if I-J is a slo mofo compared to other gundams...

Is I-J faster than S-F? Than Nu? Than V2? Nope. And did I ever say I-J was slow? No, not at all. I said "its speed is a little higher than average" by Gundam standards. Please do recall that Gundam standards are very much higher than grunt standards.

Originally Posted by SNT1

Although Athrun isnt the more experienced of thetwo, I'm pretty sure he ain't stupid enough to let this battle be a battle of long range weapons... Again I still dont know what Sazabi's long range weapons are gonna do when most likely I-J will try to get in its face... It all comes down to sabers and funnels for big red...

It doesn't matter what Athrun wants, if he can't close in on Sazabi, which is certainly fast enough to stay out of saber range, Athrun can't use beam sabers. So Char can just pummel Atrhun with ranged weaponry, confuse him with funnels, and come in for a beam saber slash or two when he sees an opening.

Originally Posted by SNT1

but nope, never saw I-J having maneuverability problems "cuz the shield weighed it down".. just, nope

I never once said "maneuverability problems." What are you reading? Read my posts better. I said it lacks the speed advantage that it would have if it had a beam shiled instead of a solid shield.

Originally Posted by SNT1

sooo.. where did we see I-Js beam shield fail? ...never? although he did block Shinn's (possibly nerfed) launcher, there is no proof that the beam shield can't take heavier shots....

Okay, you really need to read people's posts better and stop putting words in my mouth. Did I ever say the beam shield failed in GSD? No, but then again he didn't go against any beam spray cannons in GSD, did he? The beam shield would fail against a more concentrated shot from the Sazabis beam spray cannon. This has been proven in F-91.

Originally Posted by SNT1

qft... In the end Char's experience will probably = win, but it wont be a cakewalk. Guys here keep sayin I-J better than grunt, but a weak MS, and downplaying what Athrun and I-J can do... especially I-J.

Indeed it wouldn't be an easy victory. But sorry, there would be no victory at all for Athrun. (or Kira in Amuro vs Kira) It's not "downplaying I-J" at all, it's pointing out why I-J wouldn't win against Sazabi.

[SNT1]

Quote:
Originally Posted by SNT1
o r l y? check 6:15 to 6:17 of GSD F+ ... you worded it as if I-J is a slo mofo compared to other gundams...

Is I-J faster than S-F? Than Nu? Than V2? Nope. And did I ever say I-J was slow? No, not at all. I said "its speed is a little higher than average" by Gundam standards. Please do recall that Gundam standards are very much higher than grunt standards.

It doesn't matter what Athrun wants, if he can't close in on Sazabi, which is certainly fast enough to stay out of saber range, Athrun can't use beam sabers. So Char can just pummel Atrhun with ranged weaponry, confuse him with funnels, and come in for a beam saber slash or two when he sees an opening.

again, here's what I think should happen:

If anything, IJ will be on the defensive (what else can he do?), and if he shoots down most or all of the funnels, then big red is on the defensive with less melee weapons...It doesnt matter if saz is ultra maneuverable... its still a big target... Question is can Athrun shoot down the funnels?

I never once said "maneuverability problems." What are you reading? Read my posts better. I said it lacks the speed advantage that it would have if it had a beam shiled instead of a solid shield, since the solid shield weighs the I-J down in comparison to the mush rfeduced weight of using only a beam shiled.

so when you said:

"This is because a beam shield is supposed to remove the need for a normal shield, thus offering more mobility due to less mass and lighter weight, but the I-J has a normal shield anyway, with two different weapons in it too, which weigh it down more"

You are not implying I-J is slow because its heavier? hmmmm....

Okay, you really need to read people's posts better and stop putting words in my mouth. Did I ever say the beam shield failed in GSD? No, but then again he didn't go against any beam spray cannons in GSD, did he? The beam shield would fail against a more concentrated shot from the Sazabis beam spray cannon. This has been proven in F-91.

Did Char's gun ever go through a beam shield then?

Since beam shields are what, 30 years more advanced than CCA era, ten beam shield could most likely block beam shots from a 30 year older weapon. Of course, im assuming F91 beam = GSD beam shields since thats what you assumed.