[Manga] Do you feel sorry for Orihime?

[MoonWolf]

nope!
shes annoying

[Mr. DJ]

Originally Posted by SakuraHououji-NoMiko

I still don't see why/how she could have felt that unless she went everyone else would die. Later she admits she kinda knew they would come after her and that she never imagined the possibility of Ichigo losing. She either believes in her friends or she doesn't. I understand wanting to help but did she think the fight was gonna end because of her going? Did she think Aizen would suddenly stop all his plans?

Plus she didn't come up with the plan to destroy the Hougyoku until Aizen showed it to her, so what was her original plan or did she even have one and was gonna wing it? How can she destroy it when she can't even move around on her own and has no way to get access to it? Did she really think that she had all the time in the world to find that "golden moment" to strike and that her friends would just sit by and somehow KNOW what happened to her/what she was planning? Did she think AIZEN would give her the chance?

And by barely help, I mean she did all that training and made those big promises to FIGHT and HELP but she barely does it. I'm talking about once she was freed. It's not like her ability to heal is the only one she has. She wants to stand around watching Ichigo fight so bad, even Ulquiorra questions her about it. Did I epect her to go around HM on her own while Ichigo stays back and fights? No, I know that would be too much to ask, but did I expect her to be more proactive instead of so "woe is me" yes I did! Where is the resolve she was suppose to have developed? Nowhere do I see her resolve. You can THINK big thoughts all you want, but if you don't follow thru then those thoughts mean NOTHING. Like I've said of her promises before, they were nothing more than bad New Year's resolutions.

Lets keep in mind that everything happening after arriving in Las Noches has taken course over the span of maybe a few hours. Orihime isn't MacGuyver who can formulate a plan to find a way out of anything with a toothpick, some gum and a pinwheel in a few seconds.

When you're basically kidnapped, of course you're friend who just happens to be the hero of this story is going to come save you Ulquiorra issued her a life or death ultimatum.

1 training session with Rukia isn't by any means "a lot"

There was lots of potential Kubo had in his hands with Orihime by having her say what she did...but for whatever reason took off in a whole different direction.

You fight when you know you can at least delay the enemy, you don't fight when you know you don't stand a chance

Such heroic non-sense *fires arm cannon and kills Ironhide*
~Megatron

[SakuraHououji-NoMiko]

Originally Posted by DjTrizz

Lets keep in mind that everything happening after arriving in Las Noches has taken course over the span of maybe a few hours. Orihime isn't MacGuyver who can formulate a plan to find a way out of anything with a toothpick, some gum and a pinwheel in a few seconds.

1 training session with Rukia isn't by any means "a lot"

There was lots of potential Kubo had in his hands with Orihime by having her say what she did...but for whatever reason took off in a whole different direction.

Oh I was taking into consideration the entire time she was there, because it's been at least a day or two. Remeber Ichigo went to school and all, plus the time it takes to travel thru HM. Since there is no day or night I don't feel comfortable trying to say just how long it took them to reach Las Noches, but I remember them complaining about the distance and how they don't seem to be getting closer. Other then deciding to destroy the Hougyoku, she had to have made up a plan on how she would eventually go about it right? Sitting in some room with no form of entertainment, WHAT ELSE could she be thinking of at least most of the time?

And I wasn't even trying to play up her training, I never thought it would have that much of an impact in terms of making her stronger, I though it would help her to use her abilities quicker and more instinctively is all. What I focus on is her WILLPOWER, because THAT is what truly drives her powers. When Orihime believes and is determined and full of the will to protect/defend we've all seen that her powers are amazing. So then why don't we see that in Las Noches? MacGuyver has nothing on Orihime WHEN SHE BELIEVES. And with those promises she made I thought she had found her resolve and strength of will, but I have no seen it. What I have seen from her is anything but, only fear, doubt, confusion, and desperation.

I feel sorry for Orihime in that I think she bit off more than she could chew. I am disappointed in Orihime because she didn't live up to the promises she made to HERSELF and because it doesn't seem like she planned anything at all. At this point I really do feel that (subconsciously) she was waiting for her prince Charming/white knight to rescue so she never even made plans for anything else and so that outcome of everything that is happening is driving her crazy.

but hell, it's only my opinion, lol, and everyone is gonna have a slightly (or majorly) different take. I can see you points, I just think Orihime is stronger than that if she truly wants to be. I do want to say now, before I forget, thanx DjTrizz, for debating this with me nicely with out us being dragged into some of the immature pissing contest I see going on in some forums/boards. And if you at anytime feel I am attacking you or anything let me know cause that is furthest from my intentions.

You're right I don't know what the hell Kubo was thinking/is doing with Orihime.

[Langus]

Originally Posted by DjTrizz

Lets keep in mind that everything happening after arriving in Las Noches has taken course over the span of maybe a few hours. Orihime isn't MacGuyver who can formulate a plan to find a way out of anything with a toothpick, some gum and a pinwheel in a few seconds.

I got the impression she was imprisoned there quite a bit longer than a few hours based on a few things:

1.) they took the effort to feed her (which would have been pointless if she was only there for a few hours)

2.) her refusal to eat caused Ulquiorra to think that she would die/not keep her strength up at which point he said he would force feed her if necessary (again, only really a problem if she's been refusing food for days and not a few hours)

3.) and the general familiarity some of the characters had with her. The amount of hate that characters like Loli and Menoly had towards her doesn't really make sense to me if it's something that's only been cultivated over the course of a few hours. It seemed like something that had been going on for a while, building up steadily over time.

I can't say for certain how long she was there exactly, but my general impression was that it was much longer than a day.

[Mr. DJ]

You're right, went to double check, she was there for at least 2 days. From the time she left, to the evening when Ichigo, Ishida and Chad took the gate to HM. But I still stand by the events afterwards being only a matter of hours Re-checking those chapters lead me to believe her plan was more of a long term thing, because of her dialogue saying she had to make them all believe she's useful and I would assume gain their trust.

[Langus]

Teamwork!

[kagato3]

Originally Posted by SakuraHououji-NoMiko

I still don't see why/how she could have felt that unless she went everyone else would die. Later she admits she kinda knew they would come after her and that she never imagined the possibility of Ichigo losing. She either believes in her friends or she doesn't. I understand wanting to help but did she think the fight was gonna end because of her going? Did she think Aizen would suddenly stop all his plans?.

First she did not real have a choice. She was told that if she did not come with them they would kill everyone and had the video to back his claim up as at the time 4 of them had pretty much took out all the towns defenders includeing Ichigo that she knew of.

Plus she didn't come up with the plan to destroy the Hougyoku until Aizen showed it to her, so what was her original plan or did she even have one and was gonna wing it? How can she destroy it when she can't even move around on her own and has no way to get access to it? Did she really think that she had all the time in the world to find that "golden moment" to strike and that her friends would just sit by and somehow KNOW what happened to her/what she was planning? Did she think AIZEN would give her the chance?.

Her first plan was to buy time for the others to become strong enuff to win. As for her destroying the Hougyoku you seem to have forgot she was told that Azein needed her to "heal" it. Her plan was to destroy it at that time. As for people comeing after her, when she was kidnaped there was no way to get to HM and everyone but Urahara thought it would be 2 more months before they would have one.

And by barely help, I mean she did all that training and made those big promises to FIGHT and HELP but she barely does it. I'm talking about once she was freed. It's not like her ability to heal is the only one she has. She wants to stand around watching Ichigo fight so bad, even Ulquiorra questions her about it. Did I epect her to go around HM on her own while Ichigo stays back and fights? No, I know that would be too much to ask, but did I expect her to be more proactive instead of so "woe is me" yes I did! Where is the resolve she was suppose to have developed? Nowhere do I see her resolve. You can THINK big thoughts all you want, but if you don't follow thru then those thoughts mean NOTHING. Like I've said of her promises before, they were nothing more than bad New Year's resolutions.

And exactly what chances did she have to help in a fight? durring the Grim and Ichigo fight sdhe is stuck on top of a rather high pillar far away from the fight, remember she can't fly. durring Ichigo fight with spoon boy she is physicly restrained and only is free when Kenpachi shows up and then she is healing Nel and Ichigo and protecting Yachiru and you do not get between Kenpachi and a fight if you have any brain cells in you body. She does get involved with the fight with Ulquiorra only to be told to stay out of it.

[Aqua Knight]

She doesn't get involved because the level and power of reaitsu is so big that she would be eradicated to pieces, dontcha think?

[SakuraHououji-NoMiko]

Originally Posted by kagato3

Her first plan was to buy time for the others to become strong enuff to win. As for her destroying the Hougyoku you seem to have forgot she was told that Azein needed her to "heal" it. Her plan was to destroy it at that time. As for people comeing after her, when she was kidnaped there was no way to get to HM and everyone but Urahara thought it would be 2 more months before they would have one.

Let's say I buy your other two argument for the simple fact I understand different people will react different ways. But the one thing with the argument you make above is that you're implying she KNOWS there is no other way to get to HM, but unless she asked Urahara or someone in SS if they know how to get to HM then you can't say she knew that so that is not a valid argument point to me. Just because you and I-AS THE READERS-know something, it does not mean the characters know that.

And also, where does she say or imply that she is buying time for everyone else to get strong? Not, contradicting you here I just want to know what chapter cause I can't remember that line. I always thought that she intend to do it herself to be helpful and prove she's strong. Now here is where I do challenge that: your first argument says she had no choice but this one says she did it to give the others time to grow stronger. So are you saying it was both? Since she had no choice she figured at least it will buy the others some time to get stronger? So she is becoming a willing sacrifice so to speak? I would buy that except for the fact that she did not know WHAT Aizen intended to do with her till HE told her. So, she could not really have imagined buy them time since she didn't know what her know kidnapping was in the first place. Aizen could have used and disposed of her from the get-go, she didn't know she was just another pawn in his chess game.

[Mr. DJ]

Originally Posted by SakuraHououji-NoMiko

And also, where does she say or imply that she is buying time for everyone else to get strong?

Chapter 241 page 13-14

The scans I read says from her inner monologue,"...Was it...really a good thing I came here...? Won't my healing these people's injuries just make the swirl of battle larger...? ...No...but right now I have to do whatever I can to make them think I have some value at least until everyone is ready for battle."

[SakuraHououji-NoMiko]

Originally Posted by DjTrizz

Chapter 241 page 13-14

The scans I read says from her inner monologue,"...Was it...really a good thing I came here...? Won't my healing these people's injuries just make the swirl of battle larger...? ...No...but right now I have to do whatever I can to make them think I have some value at least until everyone is ready for battle."

Ahhh, cool, so it was something she said after she healed GJ. Thanks, as I was thinking of the stuff she was saying before she left, lol. Alrighty, I'll buy that argument too.

[kagato3]

Originally Posted by SakuraHououji-NoMiko

Let's say I buy your other two argument for the simple fact I understand different people will react different ways. But the one thing with the argument you make above is that you're implying she KNOWS there is no other way to get to HM, but unless she asked Urahara or someone in SS if they know how to get to HM then you can't say she knew that so that is not a valid argument point to me. Just because you and I-AS THE READERS-know something, it does not mean the characters know that.

Well Icould also point out that your premise of her beliveing that the others were going to come after her is flawed as she states to Ulquiorra that she didn't understand why they came after her at first. chapter 317 page 6-9 " When I first heard they were comeing to rescue me I was a little happy and a lot sad. I came here to protect everbody so why had they followed me? I wondered why they hadn't relized. But......{snip long speech}". She did not want or belive they would come afer her untill she was told they showed up in HM.

And also, where does she say or imply that she is buying time for everyone else to get strong? Not, contradicting you here I just want to know what chapter cause I can't remember that line. I always thought that she intend to do it herself to be helpful and prove she's strong. Now here is where I do challenge that: your first argument says she had no choice but this one says she did it to give the others time to grow stronger. So are you saying it was both? Since she had no choice she figured at least it will buy the others some time to get stronger? So she is becoming a willing sacrifice so to speak? I would buy that except for the fact that she did not know WHAT Aizen intended to do with her till HE told her. So, she could not really have imagined buy them time since she didn't know what her know kidnapping was in the first place. Aizen could have used and disposed of her from the get-go, she didn't know she was just another pawn in his chess game.

As for the whole buying time she does this just by agreeing to go with Ulquiorra. You should go back and reread ch 234 where Ulquiorra's choice to Orihime can be sumed up as you come with us willingly and we call off the fights that all your friends are looseing right now. Or we kill everyone you know and the drag you to HM cause Azein wants you alive.

[ShinAkuma135]

the one girl i feel sorry for is yachiru....having your entire village massacred and swimming in a blood puddle while seeing someone like zaraki coming at you while you're only a child is probably about has ridiculous as it gets...

[Mr. DJ]

and by ridiculous you mean awesome ;o

[Langus]

Originally Posted by ShinAkuma135

the one girl i feel sorry for is yachiru....having your entire village massacred and swimming in a blood puddle while seeing someone like zaraki coming at you while you're only a child is probably about has ridiculous as it gets...

Are you kidding? She loved it! Everyone Zaraki killed was a thug. It wasn't like he went and killed her parents or anything. Battle/blood/death doesn't seem to faze her in the least.

[ShinAkuma135]

Originally Posted by Langus

Are you kidding? She loved it! Everyone Zaraki killed was a thug. It wasn't like he went and killed her parents or anything. Battle/blood/death doesn't seem to faze her in the least.

i don't think she 'loved' it... she was just too young and innocent to know what anything was...i know zaraki wasn't the killer but honestly if you saw zaraki coming towards you with his sword and covered in blood.....you wouldn't exactly invite him in for milk and cookies. i was just sayin that she's had it a lot tougher than orihime...

and by ridiculous you mean awesome ;o

of course! what else could it be?

[Alchemist007]

Meh, only from your POV, I mean sure the battles must've been bad but apparently she enjoyed the sight of blood and had a pretty decent life as soon as she met Ken-chan (which wasn't that late into life). No mind fuckery, no physical abuse as far as we saw.

[SakuraHououji-NoMiko]

Originally Posted by kagato3

Well Icould also point out that your premise of her beliveing that the others were going to come after her is flawed as she states to Ulquiorra that she didn't understand why they came after her at first. chapter 317 page 6-9 " When I first heard they were comeing to rescue me I was a little happy and a lot sad. I came here to protect everbody so why had they followed me? I wondered why they hadn't relized. But......{snip long speech}". She did not want or belive they would come afer her untill she was told they showed up in HM.


As for the whole buying time she does this just by agreeing to go with Ulquiorra. You should go back and reread ch 234 where Ulquiorra's choice to Orihime can be sumed up as you come with us willingly and we call off the fights that all your friends are looseing right now. Or we kill everyone you know and the drag you to HM cause Azein wants you alive.

Ok, I really had thought I made it obvious I was done with this, and that while my opinion hadn't really changed, I respected the points made. But since I noticed this I guess not everyone understood. And let me point out (I thought I had before but maybe not) I do not HATE Orihime, but I dislike the actions she has taken and the character she became in the HM arc. I miss goofy, happy Hime.

OKAY. Since I don't really know what you are talking about with your first part, I'll ignore it because I was done with this thread and I don't feel like going back and reading all my post and the responses to them. And by not understanding I didn't see the connection between what you quoted me saying and what you're saying is all. I understand you don't like that I said SHE DID KNOW they were coming for her, but my opinion on that has not changed. Just because you don't want to believe something, doesn't mean you don't know it will happen. Plus that line you used actually made me feel irritated at Orihime. She is suppose to be able to understand her nakama and stuff right? That's one of her good points we all love right? So why WOULDN'T she know that they are the type that would come after her? And how could she expect them to KNOW why she left WITHOUT WORD? You pulling that line out didn't sway me towards favoring her behavior at all.

NEXT. I don't need to re-read the chapter at all. Orihime didn't think to buy time till AFTER she was in Los Noches. And by agreeing to go to HM she didn't buy anyone any time as far as I can see. Correct me if I'm wrong but, I could have sworn that in was the Espada who were actually LOSING the fights they were in: Shinji was gonna kill Grimmjow, Toshiro had enclosed Luppi into an ice prison he couldn't escape from and would have died in, and Urahara was gonna open some whip-ass on Yammy. Her agreeing to go to HM actually allowed the present Espada to escape probable death, so I fail to see what time was bought. Right about now, I'm guessing the reply would be, "But Ulquiorra was gonna kill everyone!" Possible, but let's not forget there was also 7 other Vizard waiting in the wings. We can't say WHAT would have happened if she was resistant because everything is according to Kubo. I'm looking with the events that were actually drawn, and I don't see how you can say they were "losing" at all.

[kagato3]

Originally Posted by SakuraHououji-NoMiko

Ok, I really had thought I made it obvious I was done with this, and that while my opinion hadn't really changed, I respected the points made. But since I noticed this I guess not everyone understood. And let me point out (I thought I had before but maybe not) I do not HATE Orihime, but I dislike the actions she has taken and the character she became in the HM arc. I miss goofy, happy Hime.

OKAY. Since I don't really know what you are talking about with your first part, I'll ignore it because I was done with this thread and I don't feel like going back and reading all my post and the responses to them. And by not understanding I didn't see the connection between what you quoted me saying and what you're saying is all. I understand you don't like that I said SHE DID KNOW they were coming for her, but my opinion on that has not changed. Just because you don't want to believe something, doesn't mean you don't know it will happen. Plus that line you used actually made me feel irritated at Orihime. She is suppose to be able to understand her nakama and stuff right? That's one of her good points we all love right? So why WOULDN'T she know that they are the type that would come after her? And how could she expect them to KNOW why she left WITHOUT WORD? You pulling that line out didn't sway me towards favoring her behavior at all.

Again it's flat out stated that she did not relize anyone would come after her untill she was told that her friends had entered HM. You have to relize that there never was a goofy happy Orihime, that is pretty much a mask to help her deal with her massive infearoity complex just as Ichigo's compulsive need to protect people is due to his guilt at failing to protect his mother. Also lets put into prospective the fact the last she knew, Urahara and Renji had basicly told her she was useless and abandonded her, Ishida was depowered, Ichigo was soundly beaten to an inch of his life, and the vizards weren't exactly freindly. So to her knowlage a rescue is not fezable if not out right impossable and then you add in Orihime's veiw point that she is useless and in no way importent (good job crushing any selfesteam she built up there Urahara), from her point of view there would be no rescue.

NEXT. I don't need to re-read the chapter at all. Orihime didn't think to buy time till AFTER she was in Los Noches. And by agreeing to go to HM she didn't buy anyone any time as far as I can see. Correct me if I'm wrong but, I could have sworn that in was the Espada who were actually LOSING the fights they were in: Shinji was gonna kill Grimmjow, Toshiro had enclosed Luppi into an ice prison he couldn't escape from and would have died in, and Urahara was gonna open some whip-ass on Yammy. Her agreeing to go to HM actually allowed the present Espada to escape probable death, so I fail to see what time was bought. Right about now, I'm guessing the reply would be, "But Ulquiorra was gonna kill everyone!" Possible, but let's not forget there was also 7 other Vizard waiting in the wings. We can't say WHAT would have happened if she was resistant because everything is according to Kubo. I'm looking with the events that were actually drawn, and I don't see how you can say they were "losing" at all.

You realy do need to reread the chapter. None of what you desribed happend untill after she agread to go. At the time Toshiro was out of the fight and Luppi was dealing with everyone else on site while 2 other Espada were just sitting there doing nothing, and Ichigo had lost his fight with Grimjow. the Vizzard were doing nothing, Urahara hadn't shown up and the good guys were getting their asses kicked by just half of the Espada that came and that wasn't even a all out atack by the Espada as only Luppi even released.

[SakuraHououji-NoMiko]

Originally Posted by kagato3

Again it's flat out stated that she did not relize anyone would come after her untill she was told that her friends had entered HM. You have to relize that there never was a goofy happy Orihime, that is pretty much a mask to help her deal with her massive infearoity complex just as Ichigo's compulsive need to protect people is due to his guilt at failing to protect his mother. Also lets put into prospective the fact the last she knew, Urahara and Renji had basicly told her she was useless and abandonded her, Ishida was depowered, Ichigo was soundly beaten to an inch of his life, and the vizards weren't exactly freindly. So to her knowlage a rescue is not fezable if not out right impossable and then you add in Orihime's veiw point that she is useless and in no way importent (good job crushing any selfesteam she built up there Urahara), from her point of view there would be no rescue.

I don't believe that Oh, I know she has a complex, we all know that, but to say that her happy goofy side did not exist is what I don't believe. Her interactions with Tatsuki and happy and goofy. You telling me Tatsuki who loves Orihime, can't tell when she's happy or not? Or what about the time Orihime made up that weird baseball-soccer game and was having fun, you saying that was all a lie too? Orihime is not some sad depressed flower 24/7 and for you to imply such I think is more of an insult then what I am saying about her. believe it of not people with complexes such as depression or inferiority can have happy and goofy moments or a happy and goofy side too. It's not all or nothing. Yes, she uses it as a mask at times, but not EVERY TIME. Pull out your whip all you want and try to beat that into me, but I ain't buying it. And they were trying to PROTECT her, nowhere did they say they abandoned her, even Orihime understood that. She's not a fighter, telling her the truth is not abandoning her, it's attempting to protect her from getting hurt and also a way to allow those who ARE fighters to be able to focus on the fights since they won't have to protect her during battle. Ichigo was not soundly beaten, he was just roughed up but maybe you're talking about the FIRST fight at which point I will concur he got his butt whipped. And the comment about the Vizards is bogus. She had only just meet them, but tell me how HEALING HER HAIRPINS and LETTING HER VISIT THEIR BASE WITHOUT BOTHERING HER is being unfriendly. The only Vizard that complain about Orihime was Mashiro the second time, and maybe Kensei the first time (I believe he was simply shocked to she her and that she asked for the bathroom) the others let her be. And even the complaining wasn't to her face. Once again I question that Orihime would think so little of her nakama, the people that every loves to say she's so perceptive and insightful about. I believe that deep down she KNEW they would come and that's why part of her is happy with their arrival, but saddened because she did do what she had finally decided to do. Can't have it both ways, either she is perceptive and understands her nakama and Ichigo, or she's clueless.

You realy do need to reread the chapter. None of what you desribed happend untill after she agread to go. At the time Toshiro was out of the fight and Luppi was dealing with everyone else on site while 2 other Espada were just sitting there doing nothing, and Ichigo had lost his fight with Grimjow. the Vizzard were doing nothing, Urahara hadn't shown up and the good guys were getting their asses kicked by just half of the Espada that came and that wasn't even a all out atack by the Espada as only Luppi even released.

Just because the panels are drawn afterward doesn't mean the events occurred afterward. The events were occurring AT THE SAME TIME, so we can't tell where they were at in the fight when Ulquiorra was talking to Orihime. He only showed her glimpses of the battles. And it's not like Kubo could have drawn it all at the same time/in the same panel. It is for the reader to understand that the events are occurring parallel to each other, so your argument won't wash. You telling me the Espada started to suddenly let themselves get beat because they some how knew Orihime agreed to go? For all we know what Ulquiorra showed Orihime was not even real-time images but recording. The point is we don't know. All we can infer is that he showed her glimpses of her friends who we all know were indeed not looking great since they had taken their share of hits. But we can't say that the tide turned only after Orihime agreed, because as I stated earlier it's only clear to Kubo and simultaneous events are not exactly something easily drawn or that could be understood from drawings.

But lets say that YES, at the time they were indeed getting a beat down, that Orihime was seeing that. It still doesn't mean that Orihime bought them any time, as was your original argument for bringing that up. Because we know that Shinji and Urahara DID appear and we know that Toshiro DID en-prison Luppi. Orihime had NOTHING to do with those actions. So the argument she bought them time won't wash. And the fact the Ulquiorra and Negacion come so much later in the fighting IMPLIES to me (since I am not Kubo) that when the tides in the fights changed, Ulquiorra was still talking to Orihime, so again I say those images she saw were probably only glimpses of her friends and not the WHOLE battle field, and who knows if they were real-time or not.

But as individuals we each have the right to infer what we want, that's the joy of reading. So at this point, since I have already established my stand, since I had already acknowledge that I can accept others view points in my previous posts (shame I can't get the same treatment), and since I already stated I don't hate the poor girl, but I'm not blind to her faults and the faults of her actions as I see them, I am going to call it quits on this debate that has become rather onerous. You are more than welcome to reply back kagato3 dear, since I'm not trying to get the last word, but have simply grown weary. It's just that I will not be replying to your reply if you do is all. I do enjoy debates but only when both parties can acknowledge the points each party is making, if you want to ignore/refute any point I make, then the debate becomes rather one-sided and pointless. My thanks to to DJTrizz and Langus who I had fun with.