[Game] Umineko no Naku Koro ni Chiru - Ep. 8 Twilight of the golden witch

[Axilios]

I want to know what was being talked about in that first screenshot. Who are they saying is a "personification of the message bottles"?

I would say that they are talking about the goats invading the island, but it is only a guess.

[Mcjon01]

So, I was just browsing through the script some. Answering the quiz questions correctly definitely just leads to extra scenes between the quiz games. Total coins doesn't seem to affect anything other than the contents of the present that Kinzo gave to Ange. Or a different present, I dunno, it's definitely a present though. In case anyone was still holding out for more endings, they aren't in there.

Spoiler for Trick End:

Poor Boat Captain. He finally has a few seconds in the spotlight, and what does he get for it? A Dead End. I'm kind of okay with crazy-ass Witch of Truth Ange, though

[Digdri]

Originally Posted by Klashikari

I'm finally done with Episode 8.
[...]

Well I thank for this comment because it really gave me hope that I will also kind of like (and at least except) this "end" the story will provide and enjoy the ride while doing so. Thats really some relief in all this RUINED FOREVER and other nerdrage talk starting up now like never before.

But actually this one answer also again made me want to write down some of the thought and more abstract theories that has circled in head like forever.... So here it goes:

Spoiler for here comes another of my more 'bigger picture' style analysises... also long ^^:

First as a disclaimer: Without the means to read the story right on my own and form my personal opinions about I'm obviously also delving into this habit of analyzing 2nd information sources and maybe even fakes facts you like to discourage. But as all this talk "about" EP8 for the most part ironically has little to do with those easily messed up small details of EP8 but with the big picture of direction, tone and intention IMO I don't really take to much guesses here.
Beside I have read enough of you highly analytical and often unexpectedly critical posts about the progression of the tale to know how to take this first impression.

I think the core of this controversy and discussions flaring up right now stronger then ever and IMO also the reason why the Umineko fan community will never come to term with it lies in how its aggressively tackling the more unconventional concepts of Postmodern storytelling. Or in short: I assume if you don't actually see a point bringing up the special flavor of Postmodern ideology you may also have a hard time seeing what Umineko was trying to do the whole time.

Just as a short reminder how much Umineko fits this concepts:
- Umineko goes to great lenghs to challenge the idea of universal / absolute values like truth or too narrow-minded (but otherwise tried&proven) approaches to riddles. Always pointing towards great revelations in subjective and even contradicting interpretations to find the final answers.
- Its complete build around the idea of metafictionality as the standard layer for storytelling by constantly blurring the lines between the author, reader, the books tale and the "actual" plot while also referring to numerous other authors as well as story writing paradigms, standard tropes and tutorial-like sessions dealing with the genre convention... and all of this in-story.
- Their is also the idea that some postmodern works heavily focus on an rather distorted interpretation of reality giving the story a really magical or dream-like flair..... I guess no need to discuss this part any further.


So I guess Ryu07 is a big supporter of all this postmodern idea as a means to craft a unique and deep tale but the problem is that Postmodernism isn't everybodys cup of tea which lead to the general impression that its most of the time producing weird or comprehensible, pretentious mindfuck.


The real question obviously should be is if its really suited to tell a compelling story this way but just taking this concepts to heart a lot of the more disliked spoiler reveals about EP8 make a lot of sense and are really consistent with his themes.
E.g. I also was a bit sad to read about this "robbed solution" problem everywhere but it just makes sense after forcing this idea of "subjectivity is king" at every occasion. Essentially its just taking this idea to the logical extreme by kind of denying or at least questioning the need for the often cited "word of god" knowledge. You phased it something like "its truth really important?" but you could even take that onto the meta-level and then it sounds to me like "Am I - the author - really this important to you while reading and analyzing this story? Come on make up your own mind what value can be found in here!". And if you are of a more "modern mindset" approach you won't like this question at all.
Umineko wouldn't even be the most well know story to try and force this reaction. Serial Experiment Lain was intentionally constructed with the same idea of forcing to find a subjective interpretation of its story (and also as some kind of cultural experiment for comparing western against Japanese reactions to it) and it had the same results: Lain is considered on of the most weird and incomprehensible concepts in anime history and has in conclusion a really niche appeal.


My only problem about all of this (and seemingly many others) is how this story always seem to be advertised as mystery in the first place which now may or may not be complete misdirection. Perhaps some of the more vocal haters right now are right and this really was never intend as a proper mystery and mystery topics were just a hook instead of a goal... That wouldn't even be an asspull, as Ryu07 always teased with this answer (but nobody believed his "trolling") and all the core arcs would have prepared this reveal anyway. Its just suuuch a big and fundamental red herring that is really hard to except that this was his best idea to craft this story.


But beside this drama over this there was one little part of your comment that put a big smile on my face:
"Was it mystery? Was it fantasy? I honestly can't answer to that for the moment."

Well if thats your first impression (and maybe even your final impression) that this still has relevance "after the end" then IMO we can say that Ryu07 (besides all the hiccups in the mystery solution) really pull off his thematically concept brilliantly. Actually that was the reaction to EP8 that I really hoped for. And I don't just think about the idea that he build a unusual moral question but about a much broader success in concept, which I have to elaborate a bit more:

Actually I always wondered that nobody ever seemed to address one specific part of this series when discussing his fame. Their is always the hype about how he is a genius in twisted and emotionally involving storytelling and also in mystery construction (well he may have to endure some cracks in his image for the latter in the near future ) but actually he doesn't seem to understand this story just as literature but as games as well (even before choices in EP8)... and not in just in the sense of "its on dvd and sold in game stores" but he seems to construct them which the idea of an "interactive" experience in mind even if the actually lack any kind of really interactive elements (even less then the already minimalistic VN gaming concept). I always thought of that concept as cool and really innovative but he even gave us himself a point of reference (for those not that versed in mystery) that this idea was rather old and already got "perfected" in context of fair play mystery and the golden age. But he seem to do even more then those stories tried. E.g. he is giving every single of game a explicit game-like difficulty rating which I have never ever seen before for ... well.... stories/books/whatever comparable, so he most likely seem to think about them in terms of learning curves etc. like more traditional video games and some bigger parts of the story could even be called tutorials to teach us how to "play" his games. Their are also so many rules and "tools" present in Umineko that we could easily compare them to fundamental game mechanics of those more traditional games.

So whats the point in spelling this out in such great details? Well IMO with Umineko he may not only have proven that he is a good writer but that he's actually quite good in the "game design" area as well. Well he address one specific challenge about game design in IMO really innovative fashion where many "normal" games fail to deliver: The idea to create meaningful choices.

See there is this guy on YouTube (and by now also on The Escapist) who makes those cool small lecture video about important topics in modern game design and their effect on the quality of games (because its his job you thing about them anyway) and he likes to share all this "insider knowledge" with the world..... and one of his videos (link here) was going in-depth about the topic mentioned above. Some day I wondered if this stuff he is talking about - in a really weird way - may actually have some kind of significance to the Umineko games and by now I'm convinced they do.
To borrow the videos terms Umineko (as well as most mystery tales) are easily placed in this "only exercise in problem solving" part.... that simple the fun about them to reason out what did happen. Actually mystery by construction really has very little need for deep choices because most of them would also fall in this trap he explains that they would just be part of the bigger problem solving idea.

But here is Umineko turning this idea on its head: The central theme of the game... the main conflict and theme of all games is one big moral / philosophical choice and its quite innovative in its realization.... its always the question which side to take....
Some for the Umineko "players" may not even have realized it by then but when the "intro" to the game was completed with EP1+2 these story constantly forced this choice onto every gamer because if you wanted to "play" this game you had to at first justify to yourself the side you wanted to take and use your reasoning accordingly.
Well at first it didn't even seem that interesting or even comprehensible as a choice (remember how many anime-only viewers reacted to the central dilemma and called the story nonsensical and Battler a stubborn idiot). The big essay about "Anti-Mystery vs. Anti-Fantasy" from the Extra TIPS first the first time made all of this explicit but still at first glance it seemed rather pretentious and trivial to find the "right choice". I even thought his reasoning for Anti-Mystery was really weak and sounded like comparing apples and oranges.
But the more the world building of Umineko grew the more the implication of this conflict also grew and the more it also WAS reflected in the story as one of the most important topics. All the player again and again had to revise their reasoning, their assumptions and theories but most of all to reflect on this one choice and if its still right.
Still I always wonder if this would really work... the final assessment... the option to doubt what is dictated by common sense / logic / whatever....

But well there you have it... You said you don't know what to conclude.... It seems his whole experiment really did work.
Your comment is all I have hoped for and I'm curious to see if I will interpret it this way, too. But I just see you as one of the really open-minded "players" here so I guess I have not to much to worry. ;P
But its not just this statement but this whole forum is testament to how well this worked out. How endlessly has this been discussed in all this different threads after every game and how much variate in opinions (and how often did you have to step in as a mod and remind people to calm down and also accept other peoples opinions as valid reasoning... well actually thats one thing I wouldn't really want to know )
I also wasn't that surprised by his sudden reveal that EP8 would have real multiple choices. It just fit all this assumptions details here so well to actually explicitly spell out this one choice in game mechanics and make it effect the result of the story. But I guess this also proves your warning that spoilers are really harmful to the intended experience for EP8.

In the end the route about "subjectivity is the way to go" makes totally sense if he wanted to enforce this dilemma in every reader.... and also the complete dual nature of all of Uminekos "reality" was essential to making this work.

Considering all of this said I would also say Ange could really be seen as the central character and represetation for this whole problem. So the under this asumption the whole discussion about how she was a worthless addition in EP4 (or similar complaints) really became absurd. Its also funny how everybody was suspecting a trick about a decoy protagonist in Umineko and now he may have put the most unexpected twist on this by making Ange kind of the protagonist for the "greater interpretation" of the tale replacing Battler. O_o

BTW: If anyone is wondering why this guy from the video was so all over this idea of crafting good choices in games here is another video describing one personal experience of his team and one example of a well crafted scenario about Mass Effect 2 to illustrate this.

[Renall]

Originally Posted by Ssol

I think they are us.

Yeah how dare us, wanting to know things in the episode where he was going to tell us things.

[luckyssol]

He had to get it out of his system. Though, I can see why some people might get upset by that scene.
Personally, I don’t care. I’ve been called much worse than a ruthless goat before.

[Li Jianliang]

I've only seen 13 of the total number of puzzles so far. Translations are as follows for those interested in attempting to solve them. Most of them are fairly easy, though a few involve wordplay or knowledge of Japanese language. Hints are available through consulting Auntie Eva, it appears.

The questions are in no particular order. More will be added later.

Spoiler for Black & White:

White, black, white, black, white, ?, black, white, black, white, black, white.

What goes into the "?"...?

A: White
B: Black
C: Red
D: Gray
E: Blank

Hint: A beautiful sound when struck

Spoiler for Foodstuff Alphabet:

A = Sweet Natto (Amanattou)
S = Salted Senbei (Shio-senbei)
K = Curry Rice (Karee Raisu)
N = Black Coffee (Burakku Koohii)
? = Lemonade (Remoneedo)

What alphabet letter goes into "?"...?

A: A
B: S
C: K
D: N
E: R

Hint: Flavors

Spoiler for Race for Ingots:

Rokkenjima is about to explode!
There is only 1 hour left until the explosion.
Rosa can make it to the underground VIP room where the ingots are stored in 3 minutes.
However, since the ingots are heavy, she can only take one out at a time.
Also, it takes her 5 minutes to return to above ground with it.

Starting from above ground and going back and forth to the underground VIP room, how many ingots can Rosa take out from the underground VIP room...?

A: 4
B: 5
C: 6
D: 7
E: 8

Spoiler for The Eldest Girl:

There are three girls.

Miyoko: "I'm the eldest."
Satoko: "Rika isn't the eldest."
Rika: "Miyoko is a liar. Nipaa."

Amongst them, only the eldest girl is speaking the truth.
Well then, who in the world is the eldest...?

A: Miyoko
B: Satoko
C: Rika

Hint: Run through each scenario

Spoiler for A Certain Traveler:

There was a traveler at some certain place.

The traveler walked 5km to the north.
Next, he walked 5km to the east.
Next, he walked 5km to the south.
By doing so, he somehow returned to his starting point.

This place exists in real life, but what sort of place is it...?

A: A very hot place
B: A very cold place
C: There's no way it exists in real life

Spoiler for King's Reward:

Note: Don't read into 'taking the...'. It just means people were sorted into four ranks.

A knowledge-loving king decided to reward people who studied hard.

29 gold coins for people taking the bronze.
47 gold coins for people taking the silver.
79 gold coins for people taking the gold.

Well, how many gold coins can people taking the platinum receive?

A: 30
B: 57
C: 78
D: 91
E: 112

Spoiler for Floor 14:

There is a building with 14 floors.

The companies residing on each floor are as follows.
On floor 14, there's Okamura Securities Corporation.
On floor 13, there's Iwamura Realty Corporation.
On floor 12, there's Tamura Transportation Corporation.

Well, which floor is Murakoshi Publishing Corporation on?

A: Floor 1
B: Floor 3
C: Floor 5
D: Floor 7
E: Floor 9

Hint: Read the floors out loud from floor 1

Spoiler for The Witch's Kitchen:

In the witch's house, there was a magic kitchen.

Everyday, it freshly makes a dinner to greet the witch who returns at a set time.
One day, the witch was very late in returning due to her work.
When she returned, the foodstuffs went to greet the witch.
"Welcome home, Madam Witch. I prepared a vegetable stew today," said the pot of stew.
"Welcome home, Madam Witch. Please hurry up, dunk me in the stew, and eat me," said the stiff piece of bread.
"Welcome home, Madam Witch. You must be thirsty. Hurry up and drink me," said the white wine.
"Welcome home, Madam Witch. When you eat me, you'll forget about how hot it was today," said the ice cream for dessert.

Well, amongst them, there's a liar, but who is it...?

A: Stew
B: Bread
C: Wine
D: Ice Cream

Spoiler for Cook a Dessert:

The cook is in trouble.

Only dessert remains to be made for dinner, but the only ingredient he has is mackerel (saba).

At that moment, something came across the cook's mind.
If he adds a single Hiragana letter, then the mackerel becomes dessert (dezaato).

What in the world is that letter?

A: A
B: Ka
C: Ku
D: Ro

Hint: Japanese-English wordplay

Spoiler for Down the River:

One day, a sweet chestnut (amaguri) came drifting down the river.
On the next day, an Iyokan citrus (iyokan) came drifting down.
On the next day, a melon (uri).
On the next day, an edamame (edamame).
On the next day, an okra (okura).
On the next day, a persimmon (kaki) came drifting down.

So on the next day, what will come drifting down?

A: Cabbage (kyabetsu)
B: Lettuce (retasu)
C: Corn (toumorokoshi)

Spoiler for Numbers & Cars:

If you add emergency (kyuukyuu) to "?", then it'll become an ambulance (kyuukyuusha) with a red light.

Even if you remove "?" from 130, it'll still be a car with a red light, but not an ambulance.

What number goes into "?"...?

A: 5
B: 10
C: 15
D: 20
E: 25

Hint: What + 99 can summon an ambulance in Japan?

Spoiler for Christmas Again:

Christmas Day.

While looking up at the night sky, the girl said,
"Soon, dawn will break and it'll be morning. If only it could be Christmas again even when the sun sets and it turns into night again."
Upon this, the guy said,
"Okay. I'll grant that dream."

In the end, is such a thing possible...?

A: Possible
B: Impossible

Spoiler for Burnout:

There is a lit candle, 5cm in length.

In a single hour, this candle burns away half of its length at that time.
And when its length drops below 1cm, the flame will go out.

After 3 hours, the flame has gone out, but at this moment, how many mm long is the candle?

A: 0mm
B: Approximately 3mm
C: Approximately 6mm
D: Approximately 8mm
E: Approximately 10mm

Hint: It has nothing to do with division

[luckyssol]

Are those questions in the same order that they are presented in the game? I mean, do they match the order Marina2 posted?

[Li Jianliang]

Originally Posted by Ssol

Are those questions in the same order that they are presented in the game? I mean, do they match the order Marina2 posted?

No. They are in random order. I'm not a big fan of looking at the answers before reading the riddle...

[Mcjon01]

Man, that King's Reward riddle is a really douchey question to ask a six year old girl. There's pretty much no way Ange would be able to get that one in-story, unless the Japanese school system moves ridiculously fast. I guess she's lucky that she's got an omniscient invisible force guiding her choices, eh?

[Titanguy654]

I assume that there is an answer to all of this mess, or, at least, Ryukishi has one in his own mind. There has been enough evidence of that. What I wonder about is whether or not he truly intends to carry his own answer to the grave with him.

Sealing the cat-box indeed.

Edit: Otherwise, I'm banking on a:

"Alright, now that you've all had suffeciant time to think about all 8 episodes for yourselves, here's the answer. Kthxbye." Type deal to happen. That seems naive at this point, though.

[AuraTwilight]

Man, that King's Reward riddle is a really douchey question to ask a six year old girl. There's pretty much no way Ange would be able to get that one in-story, unless the Japanese school system moves ridiculously fast. I guess she's lucky that she's got an omniscient invisible force guiding her choices, eh?

They know that, though. Eva apologizes to Ange about how she raised her after 1986 and shit.

[Sir Andy Richter]

Would it be mean to suggest we got the "ending" we did because Ryukishi wrote himself out of a corner and had no way to fix it?

I'm fine with it but ehhhh you do not end a murder mystery like that but, oh wait, this isn't a murder mystery, I forgot.

[ferthepoet]

I think people are misunderstanding those of us who are unhappy with the spoilers, the problem is not not having a definite answer on what happened on Rokkenjima, the problem is not having any answer to the main points built by the previous chapter....

for example episode 7 gaves a coherent answer as to the source of the gold then later in the chapter we get a hint that that might not have been the full truth..... I don't know if the gold was touched upon on chapter 8 but if it had been left like that and its up to us to believe Kinzo story or think something else happened that's fine, however. if we had never got any explanation about the Gold and he said something like Oh, you are free to believe whatever you want about the source of the gold that would have just been bad writing.

From the sound of it this is what happens with most of the remaining mysteries, the problem is not that we didn't get an unquestionable solution the problem is that we didn't get any solution at all nor any reasons to keep on believing a coherent narrative with a who, how and why dunnit for each of the first four episodes can be formed

The other problem is Umineko made it seem like the the whole point was finding the solution... Pan's Laberynth had an open end where no final answer on whether the magic world is real is provided but that's o.k because the work was never about that....In Umineko you are encouraged over and over to think about this... even if Author theory applies and on the metanarrative level Umineko was not a mystery novel we are told up to episode 7 that the intention of each of the authors was to write mystery novels and that they wanted the readers to solve them so its o.k not to get an answer about rokkenjima prime but we should at least get answers regarding the solutions the authors of those fictions within fiction novels had in mind.

[AuraTwilight]

Would it be mean to suggest we got the "ending" we did because Ryukishi wrote himself out of a corner and had no way to fix it?

Yes, since the ending was implied through the whole series. You can't say it's an asspull, since it dies up everything in a thematic sense.

I think people are misunderstanding those of us who are unhappy with the spoilers, the problem is not not having a definite answer on what happened on Rokkenjima, the problem is not having any answer to the main points built by the previous chapter....

for example episode 7 gaves a coherent answer as to the source of the gold then later in the chapter we get a hint that that might not have been the full truth..... I don't know if the gold was touched upon on chapter 8 but if it had been left like that and its up to us to believe Kinzo story or think something else happened that's fine, however. if we had never got any explanation about the Gold and he said something like Oh, you are free to believe whatever you want about the source of the gold that would have just been bad writing.

From the sound of it this is what happens with most of the remaining mysteries, the problem is not that we didn't get an unquestionable solution the problem is that we didn't get any solution at all nor any reasons to keep on believing a coherent narrative with a who, how and why dunnit for each of the first four episodes can be formed

You were supposed to find out all that on your own, though. Before EP8 was even published, Ryukishi said the mystery was concluded.

The other problem is Umineko made it seem like the the whole point was finding the solution... Pan's Laberynth had an open end where no final answer on whether the magic world is real is provided but that's o.k because the work was never about that....In Umineko you are encouraged over and over to think about this... even if Author theory applies and on the metanarrative level Umineko was not a mystery novel we are told up to episode 7 that the intention of each of the authors was to write mystery novels and that they wanted the readers to solve them so its o.k not to get an answer about rokkenjima prime but we should at least get answers regarding the solutions the authors of those fictions within fiction novels had in mind.

Ryukishi has been saying since before EP4 was released that we weren't going to be getting the answers. It's your own fault for building up expectations he was forthrightly claiming he had no intentions of meeting.

The answers are there, find them yourself. That's what it means to have "personal satisfaction."

[yuugi99]

What the above poster said. I am unhappy not because of what happened in rokkenjima prime. I would care less about it. I am unhappy because no confirmed answer was given to the mystery provided in the first four episodes.

Although I could form my own answer that Shannon/Kannon/Shkannon (whichever you believe he/she is) is the culprit which fakes the first twillight dead, but my answer will never be the correct answer (or anyone's answer for that matter). It may be correct or it may be wrong but we will never 100% know for sure. This is the one and only thing on why I am dissappointed. I don't care if the first 4 games are fictions within fictions but at the very least provide the answer to them.

No matter how absurd the answer is, the worst is no answer at all. I hope umineko rei would clear this up but i won't get my hope high

[AuraTwilight]

....And, again, Ryukishi has been saying literally for years that he wasn't be giving all the answers like he did for Higurashi. This can't at all be blamed on how he wrote EP8, we were told not to even EXPECT it.

[ferthepoet]

I think most people was aware we were not getting complete answers but the problem is from the sound of it we are not getting answers to any of the major points ..... maybe we are overreacting and I'll wait until I read episode 8 for giving my opinion.... but for example I don't see how a solution which doesn't give any hint how the outcome could have been avoided if Battler came one year earlier or later could be satisfying... Yes I know we can invoke butterfly effect and just leave it at the slightlest of changes can result in the largest of differences but that does not make for a compelling story

[Renall]

Originally Posted by Mcjon01

Man, that King's Reward riddle is a really douchey question to ask a six year old girl. There's pretty much no way Ange would be able to get that one in-story, unless the Japanese school system moves ridiculously fast. I guess she's lucky that she's got an omniscient invisible force guiding her choices, eh?

"Everyone hates Ange" is becoming more and more supported by evidence...

[ArcticHelm]

I'm not really sure what an answer is anymore. >.> Even "real" scenes could be some sort of fantasy. D: Well, outside of the fact that it is a story.

[Renall]

Originally Posted by ArcticHelm

I'm not really sure what an answer is anymore. >.> Even "real" scenes could be some sort of fantasy. D: Well, outside of the fact that it is a story.

Of course when we start getting into "Everything is part of a story, but some of it is more of a story than other parts," we start sounding a trifle odd, don't we?

So what distinction, if any, are we supposed to be making there?