50th anniversary of "anime" on TV: "50 Masterpieces for 50 Years of TV Anime"

[totoum]

Originally Posted by Bri

In regard to the list it's interesting that the author chose 2005 as the point in time to include late night shows.

The first one I see is Galaxy Angels in 2001 (that's definitely a show that was massively popular back in the day and seems somewhat forgotten today)

[aohige]

Originally Posted by Sackett

No Maison Ikkoku? For shame.

Yeah, this is pretty much the only complaint I would have with this list. Otherwise, the selection are on-the-mark.

But let's digress, as awesome as Maison Ikkoku is, it had very little influence in the anime field. It was one of the most successful seinen manga for mature romance, and opened a floodgate of similar titles in the demographics (i.e. Big Comic, Business, Morning, etc seinen manga field), but they generally are catered towards the live action adaptation crowd, rarely do we see anime influenced by this great work.

In that regard, I can understand why it would be left out.

In contrast, Touch, which is represented by your avatar, has a grand influence on teenage sports manga in general, shifting the focus from "spokon" to teen drama - and considering anime adaptation of these works are far more prominent, it's much more relative to include in a list of influentially successful anime.

Also, there many criticism here that seems to stem from "but work blahblah had so much influence on ME" rather than an objectionably contemplating the criteria of the list. It's actually very well thought-out.

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by aohige

Yeah, this is pretty much the only complaint I would have with this list. Otherwise, the selection are on-the-mark.

So you don't think that Bakemonogatari deserves to be there? That show did, after all, help to popularize SHAFT's visual style, helping to pave the way for Madoka Magica's success and a few shows from other animation studios showing SHAFT influence.

So ZnT over Bake? Air, but no Clannad? You don't see any issue at all with this?

The list isn't bad, but there are some valid complaints that can be made against it. Some thought clearly went into it, but I think you're giving the list a bit too much credit.

[aohige]

Uh, yeah, that's an good example of not being able to look at things objectively.

Bakemonogatari is a success and set a standard for Shaft's style, yes.
However, in the overall scheme of things, it's undeniable that ZnT has a much, much bigger influence on the modern popularity and style of LVNs adapted into anime. While Slayers started the gradual mold into the current LVN, ZnT was the one that really set the grounds for multitude of like-wise styled light novels that came after, and subsequently becoming adapted into anime. If Slayers was the Yie Ar Kung-fu for modern LVNs, ZnT was the Street Fighter II.
Not to mention, ZnT's adaptation reaches back to 2006, and it's influence is far more generically overreaching than monogatari.
There are literally dozens of LVN adaptations flooding the screens nowadays which modern roots goes squarely and directly to the 2004 hit, ZnT.

I don't think you thought out the timeline of events very well.

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by aohige

Uh, yeah, that's an good example of not being able to look at things objectively.

No, it's not. My argument was no less objective than yours was.

Bakemonogatari is a success and set a standard for Shaft's style, yes.

So my main points supporting Bakemonogatari are objectively true. So apparently I'm quite able to look at things objectively in spite of your unwarranted accusations.

However, in the overall scheme of things, it's undeniable that ZnT has a much, much bigger influence on the modern popularity and style of LVNs adapted into anime.

ZnT sold far less than Bake in anime format. That's an objective fact. So on what basis do you make this claim about ZnT supposedly having a much, much bigger influence on the modern popularity and style of LVNs adapted into anime?

Doesn't it stand to reason that the bigger hit would get more attention and hence carry more influence over the past few years?

While Slayers started the gradual mold into the current LVN, ZnT was the one that really set the grounds for multitude of like-wise styled light novels that came after, and subsequently becoming adapted into anime.

I disagree. Haruhi and Shana were both adapted into anime before ZnT were, or at the same time as ZnT was. Haruhi and Shana paved the way for light novel adaptations moreso than ZnT did. Haruhi was certainly the biggest success story of the three.

There are literally dozens of LVN adaptations flooding the screens nowadays which modern roots goes squarely and directly to the 2004 hit, ZnT.

Can you list some recent examples of such Light Novel adaptations? Also, ZnT is listed for 2006 on the original listing.

I don't think you thought out the timeline of events very well.

No, I thought it through carefully.


Finally, you don't even discuss comparative quality between ZnT and Bake. Don't you think that should have some factor in which of the two makes this list?

[aohige]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

ZnT sold far less than Bake in anime format. That's an objective fact. So on what basis do you make this claim about ZnT supposedly having a much, much bigger influence on the modern popularity and style of LVNs adapted into anime?

ZnT anime adaptation is a classic example of boosting the original sales of the novels, which btw, reached 4.5 million circulation. I mean, Bake's discs sells more per disc than One Piece, are you going to claim it's more popular than One Piece?
Anime adaptation isn't always all about disc sales.

Bake is a big success, but it's mostly a closed success, rather than an influential one.

I disagree. Haruhi and Shana were both adapted into anime before ZnT were, or at the same time as ZnT was. Haruhi and Shana paved the way for light novel adaptations moreso than ZnT did. Haruhi was certainly the biggest success story of the three.

While both of them were popular, ZnT is the one that spawned so many titles in its style. I mean, just LOOK at the LVN market afterwards and today.

Can you list some recent examples of such Light Novel adaptations? Also, ZnT is listed for 2006 on the original listing.

I'm talking about LVNs which ZnT set a standard for, and ZnT novels came into publishing at 2004.
Did you bother to actually read the whole paragraph?

"Not to mention, ZnT's adaptation reaches back to 2006, and it's influence is far more generically overreaching than monogatari.
There are literally dozens of LVN adaptations flooding the screens nowadays which modern roots goes squarely and directly to the 2004 hit, ZnT."

Multitude of teenager-from-this-world becoming the hero in a fantasy setting and building a harem became the big fad for the past decade in LVN. Individually these concepts are not new, but it was ZnT's hit that opened the floodgate in the LVN market. Do you REALLY need me to list them? I mean, if you aren't living under a rock, I seriously doubt I need to bother?
To be fair, ZnT's influence is more or less directed to the LVN market, and not directly "anime".
However, the titles this fad spawned subsequently became adapted into TV anime, thereby indirectly influencing the overall market.

Finally, you don't even discuss comparative quality between ZnT and Bake. Don't you think that should have some factor in which of the two makes this list?

Uh, because I don't have to?
ZnT has a very valid reason for it to be on the list. Bake is questionable (although to be honest, simply based on its success, I think it deserves a spot).
They're not directly compared, they're just haphazardly picked by you because you(Obviously a SHAFT fan seeing your location profile) were frustrated by it. There was no direct comparison of the two to begin with, other than a wrestling match conjured in your head?

Also, "quality" of a franchise is a highly subjective topic. It'll do nothing but encourage fanboy feuds.
Subjectively speaking, both franchise are lump of shit to me, so.

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by aohige

While both of them were popular, ZnT is the one that spawned so many titles in its style. I mean, just LOOK at the LVN market afterwards and today.

If we're talking about the light novel adaptations that are reflective of ZnT's style, I certainly admit that there is a lot of sheer quantity there, but there's not many of them that have really stood out on their own. At least not that I can recall.

Bake's success, at least in part, influenced Madoka Magica, which was a big success in and of itself.

What did ZnT lead to that was a big success in and of itself?

Yes, there's a lot of these "teenager-from-this-world becoming the hero in a fantasy setting and building a harem" LN-adaptations but off-the-top of my head, I can't think of any one of them that had a particularly strong impact on the anime world. (For LN adaptations with other premises, I'm more inclined to think that Haruhi and/or Shana paved the way for them).

The reason I asked you for LN adaptations reflective of ZnT's style is because I wanted to see if you would list one that would make me go "Oh, yeah, that anime was admittedly a pretty big deal".

Did you bother to actually read the whole paragraph?

Yes, I did. I thought you were talking about the ZnT anime, which could reasonably be considered a "hit" even though it sold a lot less than Bake. My mistake.

ZnT has a very valid reason for it to be on the list.

I see your argument on a sheer quantity basis, so if one puts a lot of weight on sheer quantity, then ZnT's placement on the list makes sense. But I'll admit my own personal viewpoint here differs - I'm more impressed by a show that inspires a few good-to-great successful shows than I am by a show that inspires loads and loads of fairly average, not-so-successful shows.

Bake is questionable (although to be honest, simply based on its success, I think it deserves a spot).

I'm glad we agree on this.

[speedyexpress48]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

I see your argument on a sheer quantity basis, so if one puts a lot of weight on sheer quantity, then ZnT's placement on the list makes sense. But I'll admit my own personal viewpoint here differs - I'm more impressed by a show that inspires a few good-to-great successful shows than I am by a show that inspires loads and loads of fairly average, not-so-successful shows.

Well, if we look at it from an industry perspective, sheer numbers do probably matter more. Honestly, Bake did inspire a few shows, but it is a fairly low number, and one somewhat-inspired megahit is still less influence than a ton of not-so-good copies.

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by speedyexpress48

Well, if we look at it from an industry perspective, sheer numbers do probably matter more. Honestly, Bake did inspire a few shows, but it is a fairly low number, and one somewhat-inspired megahit is still less influence than a ton of not-so-good copies.

I have to disagree, and let me explain why. I definitely think that from both an industry perspective and a fan perspective, megahits are more important than sheer numbers of anime shows produced. Heck, just look at KyoAni for verification of that. KyoAni is probably the most popular and influential anime studio since 2006 or so, and they definitely achieved that moreso through megahits than through sheer quantity of shows produced.

Also, what do you think has made more money for SHAFT - Madoka Magica, or every non-Monogatari/non-Madoka show they've done since 2009? I'm inclined to think that Madoka Magica is the answer to that question. One truly big megahit is way more valuable to an animation studio (and hence to the anime industry) then a half-dozen or so mediocre shows with middling sales.

What do you think matters more to most anime fans - A memorable megahit, or a whole bunch of mediocre and easily forgettable shows with middling sales? What do you think does more to lift the fortunes of an animation studio?

[Fireminer]

Does it matter, this debate? The argument only happening with the recent, 2000s-era anime. So would it possible that time is the best judge?

[speedyexpress48]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

I have to disagree, and let me explain why. I definitely think that from both an industry perspective and a fan perspective, megahits are more important than sheer numbers of anime shows produced. Heck, just look at KyoAni for verification of that. KyoAni is probably the most popular and influential anime studio since 2006 or so, and they definitely achieved that moreso through megahits than through sheer quantity of shows produced.

Also, what do you think has made more money for SHAFT - Madoka Magica, or every non-Monogatari/non-Madoka show they've done since 2009? I'm inclined to think that Madoka Magica is the answer to that question. One truly big megahit is way more valuable to an animation studio (and hence to the anime industry) then a half-dozen or so mediocre shows with middling sales.

What do you think matters more to most anime fans - A memorable megahit, or a whole bunch of mediocre and easily forgettable shows with middling sales? What do you think does more to lift the fortunes of an animation studio?

SHAFT benefited a lot from Madoka, yes. They're only one studio though, and one studio isn't the whole industry. Besides, it created one megahit, but otherwise there isn't much influence outside SHAFT, and like I said, it's questionable how much Madoka was really inspired by Monogatari, especially since Urobuchi has a history of writing pretty similar stories. Only real inspiration I can think from Monogatari was the "mindfuck" factor, and even that is debatable, since the style's still pretty different between the two. There isn't really much else in the industry that's close to the Monogatari series in anything, while there's a lot of light novels that are quite similar to ZnT. Of course, Madoka Magica also created a whole spawn of copycats, which fail even worse when compared to the ZnT copies.

[aohige]

Right. In a way, it's a lot like what I said about Maison Ikkoku and Touch.

It's about creating a "formula" that is followed, and guarantee a degree of success.
Touch did that with introducing more drive-to-home "seishun" stories into sports, breaking the previous formula of spokon trends. Meanwhile, while successful and masterpiece on its own, MI didn't exactly inject a formula into anime.
(of course the difference is, Monogatari is pretty much complete on its own without successors, while Maison Ikkoku DID actually create a popular formula in the seinen manga - they're just not animated)

The lasting influence is quite obvious.

Take for example, Yattaman that's on the list. Its influence only mostly reaches to within its own studio, like Monogatari series... except, Yattaman spawned a HOLY MOTHER OF GOD CRAPTON of successors in the Tatsunoko line-up, reaching decades after decades of material. It became such a colorful, popular well-received sect of animation, it completely stood on its own as a pillar of Japanese pop culture.
If Monotatari was to be considered a similar status, we'll have to check out in a decade where it stands.

[Jan-Poo]

Originally Posted by aohige

Take for example, Yattaman that's on the list. Its influence only mostly reaches to within its own studio, like Monogatari series... except, Yattaman spawned a HOLY MOTHER OF GOD CRAPTON of successors in the Tatsunoko line-up, reaching decades after decades of material. It became such a colorful, popular well-received sect of animation, it completely stood on its own as a pillar of Japanese pop culture.
If Monotatari was to be considered a similar status, we'll have to check out in a decade where it stands.

About that though, it's actually Time Bokan that started the series and the formula, Yattaman is the one that reached the peak of popularity. Which is why, like I said, this list favors popularity more than influence.

BTW I can see time bokan influences in anime outside of tatsunoko even if not so obvious. For example it is a well known fact that the doronjo trio influenced the similar group in Fushigi no Umi no Nadia.
I also occasionally see the typical cloud explosion sealing the defeat of an enemy, sometimes even taking the shape of a skull.

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by speedyexpress48

SHAFT benefited a lot from Madoka, yes. They're only one studio though, and one studio isn't the whole industry. Besides, it created one megahit, but otherwise there isn't much influence outside SHAFT, and like I said, it's questionable how much Madoka was really inspired by Monogatari, especially since Urobuchi has a history of writing pretty similar stories. Only real inspiration I can think from Monogatari was the "mindfuck" factor, and even that is debatable, since the style's still pretty different between the two.

Influencing the overall visual style of a show is not as small a thing as you're making it out to be, imo. Anime is still a visual medium. It should be noted that some non-SHAFT anime shows have tried to emulate SHAFT's visual style, and I have little doubt that the success of Bake (and later Madoka) is a big part of the reason why.

Of course, Madoka Magica also created a whole spawn of copycats, which fail even worse when compared to the ZnT copies.

What makes you say that? VRO was clearly inspired (at least in part) by Madoka Magica, and it was reasonably well-received and it sold pretty well, IIRC. I enjoyed it.

Symphogear was a manga that came out in December 2011, almost a year after Madoka Magica started airing. I see considerable similarities between the two, and Symphogear has been reasonably successful, with it getting a sequel recently.

Right now there's Gen'ei, which I personally like, but it has admittedly received mixed reviews.

Other than those three, I'm not seeing a "spawn of copycats" for Madoka, at least not yet. It should be noted that the Prisma Illya manga predates Madoka Magica by quite a bit.

[aohige]

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

About that though, it's actually Time Bokan that started the series and the formula, Yattaman is the one that reached the peak of popularity. Which is why, like I said, this list favors popularity more than influence.

BTW I can see time bokan influences in anime outside of tatsunoko even if not so obvious. For example it is a well known fact that the doronjo trio influenced the similar group in Fushigi no Umi no Nadia.
I also occasionally see the typical cloud explosion sealing the defeat of an enemy, sometimes even taking the shape of a skull.

You're right, Yattaman was the most popular of the series.
Yattaman so prominent, despite the series being called Time Bokan series, I forgot that was actually the name of the show.
(I also erroneously remembered red jacket Lupin as the original, simply because the second series was the most prominent)
TB influence outside the Tatsunoko line-up is pretty minor though. It's more of a subject of parody reference, not an actual formula.
(as for homages, I think the make-up of certain pokemon villains are probably more popular than the Grandis trio of Nadia, despite the latter having closer resemblance)

[hyl]

The "wierd" Shaft visual art style was used earlier than Bakamonogatari , like EF and Sayonara Zetsubou Sensei. The only difference is that the monogatari series were more popular. However can't tell for sure if the monogatari series or Madoka is the more popular one, but Madoka probably had the overall bigger impact

[bhl88]

Madoka is popular in the mainstream (and Bakemonogatari is popular only in the 'circle').

[speedyexpress48]

Originally Posted by bhl88

Madoka is popular in the mainstream (and Bakemonogatari is popular only in the 'circle').

I would argue that at least the Bakemonogatari light novels are just as mainstream if not the disks which sells far better than almost anything else out there, and Madoka is a lot more niche-mainstream than anything (something like Doctor Who would be a good comparison). Of course, it's hard to know for sure.

[totoum]

Originally Posted by speedyexpress48

I would argue that at least the Bakemonogatari light novels are just as mainstream if not the disks which sells far better than almost anything else out there, and Madoka is a lot more niche-mainstream than anything (something like Doctor Who would be a good comparison). Of course, it's hard to know for sure.

The madoka movies have been promoted on mainstream japanese morning tv shows, has that happened with anything monogatari related?

[bhl88]

http://wiki.puella-magi.net/Cage_Named_Maturity

Does Bakemonogatari have academic papers?