2011-10-07, 16:13 | Link #24941 | |||||
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Her goal is not to make someone experience fear. And it isn't to have revenge on someone either. Beato never committed murder for the sake of pleasure. More so we seen in Bernkastel's "truth" that Yasu seems dead inside. There is no malicious intent like revenge/causing fear, not even the basic feeling of pleasure of playing this murderous game. The problem I have is how Battler can go full on forgiveness and acceptance without any contemplation the moment he finds out the truth. About Battler and Ange, I think that he might be guising her away from the truth since she wants revenge like Amakusa said. Yasu isn't a villain in the sense of being an insane mass murderer like Ange wishes that Eva was Telling Ange the truth wouldn't help her at all. Quote:
You are all alone on this island. And of course, I am not you. Yet I am here, now, and will kill you The games are all about how Yasu wants to convey something to Battler. I think this red truth was suppose to be a big insight into the nature of Beatrice. Even in the "truth" Bernkastel shows, Yasu was prepared to kill 13 people if nobody found the gold than blow herself up. I do think that is valid portrayal of Yasu. Like Eva said, she/he is insane. Quote:
I do think that Yasu counts as "extremely deranged" which accumulates at 1986. Quote:
Will mentioned that things took a turn for the worse when he solved the epitaph and in addition that Battler's return sparked the crime. Claire mentioned that if it was any other year, no crime would have happened. Which leads me to think that her mental state was far from stable. Her mental state anyway was shown to be unbalanced way before the crime happened, events leading up to the crime(the countdown) was just adding fuel to the flame. Quote:
Though it seems that the bottles were created by the culprit as message to find the truth(given the ending). Which isn't unlike Beato's murder game she played with Battler. |
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2011-10-07, 16:39 | Link #24942 |
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Another point, in that metaphor about Ange finding out the truth, its implied that Eva knew this truth as well. That Battler knows the truth as well. That they together try to impede Ange from finding it.
The rift between Eva and Ange happened because Ange believed that Eva really had something to do with the murder. If the truth was as simple as "Random maid killed everyone because she was crazy" dont you think that Eva would have just told her that? Something like "Ange, I know you hate me because you think I had something to do with this. Even though you dont believe me, I'll tell it to you so I dont have to carry it with me to hell. A random maid killed everyone, killed your parents, killed my husband and son, killed everyone. Im sorry I couldn't have done anything to stop it" |
2011-10-07, 17:20 | Link #24943 |
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I do not think the truth is simple as "Random maid killed everyone because she was crazy". It is entirely possible that some of the parents took advantage of Yasu's game for their own ends. However I still think that Yasu was essential to the whole incident.
Also it could also be that Eva done something shameful herself such as accidentally shot Battler or someone in paranoia. That she is "innocent" but deeply shamed of her behavior that people would judge her for it harshly. Or simply that the experience was too traumatic to want to share it with a little kid she had to take care of. For example you do not see Rosa telling Maria about her past with her father. Some adults do not open up to kids. Another major factor why their relationship went sour was that Eva was too absorbed into own sadness and bitterness to think of Ange. That maybe when she felt ready to tell Ange, their relationship got too sour for it to make any difference. |
2011-10-07, 17:26 | Link #24944 | |||
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And Yasu wrote the games where she is the culprit, even if she isn't the culprit in real life. If she's making herself a martyred villain to protect someone else, this makes sense. Quote:
Yasu is basically emotionally stunted and pretty much abused and neglected, so she took it WAAAY too far. However, there's a huge stretch between being obsessed with pretend and being A PSYCHO MASS MURDERER. Quote:
And the tragedy still happens even in worlds where she's Lion, on the same year in the same circumstances. Meaning that Yasu probably isn't responsible but feels responsible, such as revealing the gold to the adults.
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2011-10-07, 17:51 | Link #24945 | |||||||||
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And edit your post so that it quotes me right. Quote:
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RK07 wanted to keep Battler's thought process in accepting Beatrice hidden. He wanted us to figure it out ourselves. Quote:
Spoiler for latter half of episode 8:
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And she's not as deranged as you think; since she's the one who always has to set up the tricks to convince other people that witches are real, she knows better than anyone exactly how not real they really are. It's even embedded in the rules of her "game". Quote:
I had forgotten about this point. It's a very good one. |
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2011-10-07, 18:01 | Link #24946 | |||
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However isn't so much as pretend being the problem, it is more Yasu's severe problems coping with reality and dealing with his issues in a healthy manner. For example in EP3. Eva had her own inner witch to help her deal with her harsh reality. Though it doesn't compare to Yasu who has multiple inner selves and lives a double life. Yet in the third game,when Eva saw the gold, it implied that it made her temporary mad due to all of pent up emotions invested into her inner self. It is implied with the text that it is Eva. Which lead her to commit a few murders. I think Yasu could be the same. That he/she had some kind trigger that lead him/her to commit the crime. Quote:
Also I could see someone like George taking advantage of Yasu's game or state of mind for their own gain. Do you think the "truth"is closer to what Berncastel showed Ange? |
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2011-10-07, 18:22 | Link #24947 | ||||||||
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-causing fear -revenge -fun Which leads me to think that murdering was just a means to an end. Quote:
I mean he has been basically the reader's avatar as far as the games are concerned. Quote:
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Also I haven't read the latter half of episode 8, though it is possible that she used that out of context. For example Bernkastel was referring to the Battler that Asumu gave birth to which was a stillborn. Quote:
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Also it depends on Yasu's goal. I do not think it is to convince people that witches exist becasue she herself is one. Rather she takes in the role of one to excute her game. Quote:
Last edited by goldendust; 2011-10-08 at 04:58. |
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2011-10-07, 18:52 | Link #24948 | ||||||
The True Culprit
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But Battler theory is pretty great. Quote:
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2011-10-07, 18:52 | Link #24949 | ||||
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Just two scenes in EP3 for example...in the manga version they made my skin crawl. One was where Virgilia is trying to talk Beatrice into "returning to her true form" and becoming "what she once was". Beatrice responds to that, that she does not want to return to that pitiful form. Back in EP3 this was to most people just Beatrice not wanting to give up her powers to Virgilia...but it could actually be seen as Kumasawa talking to Yasu about dropping the act. Also EP3 in the Tea Party, where scary Lambda threatens her to take away her magic and return her to that pitiful girl that wished every night to become a witch (which was hinted in earlier Episodes as well)...in the manga they show her slowly dissolving Beatrice's magic...which is actually showing how there is nothing so great behind Beatrice. I don't think it destroys the character of Beato at all...it rather adds depth to all those scenes invloving her and her struggle. They tie the meta- and fantasy-events not only into a general narrative but also in a development of Yasu. Quote:
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In EP7 Kinzô said to Yasutrice that she was the spitting image of her mother, especially when wearing her dress. So I think it'd be possible that Rosa was really scared after that meeting in the garden in EP2. EP3 showed how scarred she was from that incident back in 1968. So a meeting with somebody who closely resembles the woman whose death she feels responsible for, so far as to say that she murdered her, would probably make her confused enough to commit to quite strange actions. |
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2011-10-07, 19:46 | Link #24950 | |
The True Culprit
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2011-10-07, 19:58 | Link #24951 | |
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I mean, that would be like having philosophical debates during Independence Day. Yes maybe the aliens don't deserve to get blown up but hey it's Independence Day. We want to see Will Smith blow shit up. So when people say that chiru assassinated her character, what they mean is "Chiru took away the aspects I enjoyed from her character and gave her depth. The depth is well done, but really it's not something I enjoy and it takes away what I enjoyed before, which was the thing I enjoyed the most about the novel." Which is a fair point really. No one is saying it was badly done, just that it made them stop caring about the character. Which...is just an opinion. |
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2011-10-07, 20:18 | Link #24952 | ||
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2011-10-07, 20:22 | Link #24953 | |
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The "badass Beatrice" was just a construct that the readers were supposed to pick up but was being rivaled by other depictions again pretty early on. So of course it is an opinion to like the badass uber-antagonist Beatrice the most, but it's not like it was CHIRU which destroyed her, it was an ongoing process. |
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2011-10-07, 20:43 | Link #24955 | |
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It comes down to "if you average how cool she was between 1-4 and 5-8, both have high and low points but 1-4 had a longer coolness period while 5-8 had a much worse depressing period." So to sum up, she wasn't broken pre-episode 5, but she was about to break. Just barely holding on. Then Chiru broke it in a way it couldn't be put back together(which was one of the themes episode 6 brought up). Also the signs of destruction pre-chiru could be brushed away by people before because they didn't have enough info(save for the end of episode 4, that was hard to ignore). But yeah, the "Chiru destroyed Beatrice" thing is more like "Chiru destroyed her more than the first 4 episodes did" since it's pretty obvious what people are referring to and elaborating on it just makes the message longer for no particular reason. |
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2011-10-07, 21:03 | Link #24956 | ||||
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Well, I don't commit murders for pleasure either because... I don't commit murders at all. Or you can say that the "murders" she committed are contextual to her stories. Quote:
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I'm not really talking about the "murder game" specifically. Her actions that asserted her status as a witch began long before 1986. |
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2011-10-07, 21:18 | Link #24957 | |
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And, because Ryűkishi seems to regard the manga and the novel as an official source which aids the understanding of the VN and sometimes updates some mistakes:
絵羽は秀吉を殺していない。 (Eva did not kill Hideyoshi.) While we're there, they also updated one line in Eva-Beato's web of red. The line 以上、15人は死亡。(This means nothing less than that 15 people have died.) is no longer represented in red (probably because ShKanon is among those "15"). Quote:
Though I'd say asking about her location mirrors how Rosa saw Maria as her trusted companion and how she planned her to be her line of communication towards the adults...which mirrors in Maria changing behaviour almost 180° when "channeling Beatrice". She didn't even care to make her talk like a child in those scenes...see the fact that she couldn't even remember the word messenger but was perfectly fine with reading out a letter containing complicated Kanji. |
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2011-10-07, 23:02 | Link #24958 | |||
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-------------- And while we are on the topic of the episode 3 manga, can you confirm this? Quote:
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If she knew who Beatrice was, wasn't she at one point armed and alone with Shannon in Kinzo's study? Wouldn't she take control of the situation there? Was her gun even loaded? |
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2011-10-08, 00:22 | Link #24959 |
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By the way, while we are on the topic of updated mistakes, did Ryuukishi ever correct a mistake between releases? Like say, if he made a mistake in episode 1, did the episode 1 version that came with episode 2 come patched? Or did he just fix those mistakes in the manga and novelizations?
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2011-10-08, 00:41 | Link #24960 |
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Agh, I have never liked the idea that Yasu is somehow considered to be entirely incapable of murder. I mean, yeah, I get the kind of girl she was - troubled and timid and all, but she's also pretty emotionally unstable, and tends to see the world is a particularly ... unique way.
Also, whenever I see "Yasu wasn't the kind of girl who could kill in cold blood", I sort of read it as, instead, "But Kyrie, now there's a cold blooded bitch," and it's just ... I don't see Yasu as any less capable of murder than anybody else on the island. At my kindest, I can't go any easier than Even if she did not wish to kill people, she had fully committed to the possibility of doing so at the 1986 conference. Also, I hate to use this comparison, because the Hinamizawa Syndrome was a factor there, but the author's other work had a crap ton of "Yeah, you'd be surprised how far a person will go when they're on their edge" <_< |
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