Character Discussion - Hanekawa Tsubasa

[zeando]

Originally Posted by Shikijin

This part was a typical Nisio anticlimax, actually. In Neko Black Araragi assumes Hanekawa having no room to be the epitome of child abuse, while in Neko White we learn that Hanekawa just had a pervasive self-sufficient attitude, which is what ultimately costed her Araragi.

that's an interesting side of her relation with araragi, she didn't need him to solve her problems, or didn't want to rely on him(or anyone) to solve her problems, maybe she only felt she needed araragi as moral/emotive support? (and not practical/active support)

[Shikijin]

Originally Posted by zeando

that's an interesting side of her relation with araragi, she didn't need him to solve her problems, or didn't want to rely on him(or anyone) to solve her problems, maybe she only felt she needed araragi as moral/emotive support? (and not practical/active support)

She clearly longed for a relationship with someone, for that matter. I think her problem was some sort of lack of self-esteem, where helping another person proves your worth, but you feel getting helped tend to negate it. It's like "I'll help him so he'll like me / if I'm not helpful he can't possibly like me".

[zato_1one]

Yes, Monogatari series is all about Araragi. I suppose no one would state otherwise. And I think that I made it very clear in my post about how Senjougahara is important in Bake story. I only talked about Bake story. So, no need to tell me if no x character = no x story/arc etc again. I'm not that ignorant to say that Senjougahara is the most important character in the series. In fact, I'm really pissed that Senjougahara had less important role after Bakemonogatari. Damn you, Nisio!

Originally Posted by Shikijin

It's not like she couldn't ask for a room, she just saw no need to, because she was abnormal.

Yes. That's why I said her character was developed that way. I might use wrong word though. <_< But I guess that is also a reason why people don't feel that much sympathy toward her. She became this way because of her own attitude. She chose to live her life this way. I'm not sure if she had any other choice. But just like what Araragi's mother said, if she is ok with it then no one can help her. She reap what she sow.

[Altima of the Gates]

She chose to live her life this way. I'm not sure if she had any other choice. But just like what Araragi's mother said, if she is ok with it then no one can help her. She reap what she sow.

That isn't quite right imo. She became that way due to experiences, so her abnormality, while it may he her fault in a sense for continuing it, was not all her doing. The parents never talked with her, or voiced their displeasures. They were just people who happened to live in the same house.

Relationships are a two way street, and you can't expect someone to pick up on those little signals all the time, something has to give in order for the pendulum to swing one way or the other. By being apathetic or dismissive to her behavior and attitude, her families exacerbated and developed her abnormality, just as she carried on the behavior of cutting herself off because it seemed to work. A child learns from their environment, that is always true.

That is why expecting her to ask for help was foolish from the start, she needed the ignition to understand and confront the abnormality. Anyone that expected her to dig herself out without that understanding I would say is missing the point.

That said, watching that last ep of Tsubasa (Tiger) actually made me feel quite proud that, with an impetus, she figured out the road to the starting line at least. People might say she was inhuman, but she seemed one of the most human characters in a way to me.

[Vallen Chaos Valiant]

We are not expecting her to dig herself out.

We expect her to admit she is in a hole.

"You alright, miss?" We asked, looking down. "You need any help?"
"Oh no sir", replied Hanekawa, "Everything is fine. Thanks for asking".

Oh well, then there is nothing anyone can do.

[Altima of the Gates]

That is one of the hardest, and yet the first step towards recovery, if the person cannot recognize there is a hole to be dug out of, they can't ask for the shovel, to coin a metaphor. Its a spiraling chain that needs an outside impetus, similiar to a someone facing an addiction. That is why you have an intervention, because just asking, "are you alright?" is insufficient.

It still remains the person's job to use the shovel after that, but the intervention is needed for serious problems like these.

[Vallen Chaos Valiant]

Originally Posted by Altima of the Gates

That is one of the hardest, and yet the first step towards recovery, if the person cannot recognize there is a hole to be dug out of, they can't ask for the shovel, to coin a metaphor. Its a spiraling chain that needs an outside impetus, similiar to a someone facing an addiction. That is why you have an intervention, because just asking, "are you alright?" is insufficient.

It still remains the person's job to use the shovel after that, but the intervention is needed for serious problems like these.

Araragi intervened TWICE. Two entirely separate incidences of the cat going nuts. But for Hanekawa, she still thinks everything is fine, leading to the Tiger. We have seen proof that people have tried to save her. You can't claim she was being left alone in this.

In fact many people who don't like Hanekawa, have complained about why she got three separate story arcs to herself. It is clear she ran out of excuses the third time.

[Altima of the Gates]

He somewhat intervened by taking care of a problem that was tangentially related, but at the same time, she still had those blocks to her memory.

Remember at the end of Bakemonogatari, where Koyomi says he would find time to discuss things with Hanekawa and see how much she actually remembers, but he never does, thus allowing for a similiar situation to happen again, because the main problem isn't addressed and clearly brought out in the open.

Now, don't get me wrong, I am not saying she is free from blame for not confronting things, but it's not that simple, and why long term therapy for people like this is a necessity. You don't just say that the problem is fixed. You don't seem like you understand what an arduous process that actually is. Some wounds need to be tore out to heal properly to coin a metaphor, and what we saw in the her third encounter with an abnormality allowed her to get the full picture and gut those wounds herself so that they healed properly. Or rather, so that she cognitively felt them for the first time, and then they could start the healing. All this makes for a tiring process, but a necessary one.

[Shikijin]

Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant

why she got three separate story arcs

Because she is a good character

She got the human flaws and the conficts with the self, with these the story writes itself.

[zato_1one]

Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant

In fact many people who don't like Hanekawa, have complained about why she got three separate story arcs to herself. It is clear she ran out of excuses the third time.

It's because she is that stubborn. Seriously, it took her long enough just to finally figure out and accept her own feeling.

[Vallen Chaos Valiant]

Originally Posted by Altima of the Gates

He somewhat intervened by taking care of a problem that was tangentially related, but at the same time, she still had those blocks to her memory.

Remember at the end of Bakemonogatari, where Koyomi says he would find time to discuss things with Hanekawa and see how much she actually remembers, but he never does, thus allowing for a similiar situation to happen again, because the main problem isn't addressed and clearly brought out in the open.

Now, don't get me wrong, I am not saying she is free from blame for not confronting things, but it's not that simple, and why long term therapy for people like this is a necessity. You don't just say that the problem is fixed. You don't seem like you understand what an arduous process that actually is. Some wounds need to be tore out to heal properly to coin a metaphor, and what we saw in the her third encounter with an abnormality allowed her to get the full picture and gut those wounds herself so that they healed properly. Or rather, so that she cognitively felt them for the first time, and then they could start the healing. All this makes for a tiring process, but a necessary one.

And yet you are making excuses for her, saying someone else should drag her out without her doing anything. I am not saying her situation is deserving, but I refuse to accept your argument that someone else is negligent.

Should her parents treat her better? Sure. But her parents didn't ask for this. They gave her everything she asked for. But they are in just as much distress as she is, ill prepared to handle a child with mental illness. And with Hanekawa saying everything is fine and dandy, they are just glad that superficially, she is highly functional and praised by people at school. The parents were also in a hole as well.

[Shikijin]

Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant

But they are in just as much distress as she is, ill prepared to handle a child with mental illness.

Uh no, a mental illness is something different. I'd say we are talking about a personality disorder (mixed with what seems to be a form of savantism). Never confuse between the two, it is highly offensive.

they are just glad that superficially, she is highly functional and praised by people at school.

No, I think they didn't care at all at this point. She was not their child to begin with.

[Vallen Chaos Valiant]

Originally Posted by Shikijin

Uh no, a mental illness is something different. I'd say we are talking about a personality disorder (mixed with what seems to be a form of savantism). Never confuse between the two, it is highly offensive.
No, I think they didn't care at all at this point. She was not their child to begin with.

You are saying Hanekawa doesn't have a mental illness?

And I fail to see how it can be considered offensive. Denying someone having a serious problem is just another way of denying them treatment. Hanekawa had a supernatural breakdown, but that doesn't make her not have a mental illness. The idea that she is "perfectly fine" is part of the problem.

Personally the line between mental disorder and mental illness, is if she needed a psychologist, or a psychiatrist.

To me, she clearly needed more than a chair to lie down on. Sure, it would be extremely relevant when the classic question "talk about your mother" is asked, but I see clearly a need for a psychiatrist in her case.

If you care more about "not offending her" than to help her, then you are not helping her.

[Altima of the Gates]

Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant

And yet you are making excuses for her, saying someone else should drag her out without her doing anything. I am not saying her situation is deserving, but I refuse to accept your argument that someone else is negligent.

Should her parents treat her better? Sure. But her parents didn't ask for this. They gave her everything she asked for. But they are in just as much distress as she is, ill prepared to handle a child with mental illness. And with Hanekawa saying everything is fine and dandy, they are just glad that superficially, she is highly functional and praised by people at school. The parents were also in a hole as well.

Making excuses? No, I am putting it in perspective and saying that everyone in that house had a hand in this. Nor am I saying someone should "drag" her out. I merely said that it is necessary for her to have the tools to dig herself out, which is totally different.

And no, the parents are not in the hole, they could have just as easily gone for help. Your argument is on the surface neutral, but you are blaming a child specifically for their situation, which in this instance is wrong. From an objective standpoint, the parents had a choice of accepting her into their home, or sending her off if they could not handle the stress. The child has no such luxury of picking their household. And this environment they are raised in exacerbates the problem. If you are going to say Tsubasa had a mental illness, as parents, they are obligated to look into it, or as you said it is negligence. That Tsubasa ended up the way she was is objectively her own doing, but also objectively, her parents weren't "stuck" with her, nor without options.

[Vallen Chaos Valiant]

Originally Posted by Altima of the Gates

If you are going to say Tsubasa had a mental illness, as parents, they are obligated to look into it, or as you said it is negligence. That Tsubasa ended up the way she was is objectively her own doing, but also objectively, her parents weren't "stuck" with her, nor without options.

You make it sound easy for parents to declare their child has mental issues. Tsubasa has a great reputation at school and is well liked. She superficially is functioning in society. To declare she needed mental help would immediately harm her social standing, and without her consent Hanekawa would not agree to see a psychologist.

And no, sending her away doesn't help her, it helps the parents, but it doesn't help her.

Once again I am pointing out that with Hanekawa being well adjusted on the outside, something drastic like sending her to be mentally examined just isn't an option unless she bring it up herself.

[teja208]

Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant

You are saying Hanekawa doesn't have a mental illness?

And I fail to see how it can be considered offensive. Denying someone having a serious problem is just another way of denying them treatment. Hanekawa had a supernatural breakdown, but that doesn't make her not have a mental illness. The idea that she is "perfectly fine" is part of the problem.

Personally the line between mental disorder and mental illness, is if she needed a psychologist, or a psychiatrist.

To me, she clearly needed more than a chair to lie down on. Sure, it would be extremely relevant when the classic question "talk about your mother" is asked, but I see clearly a need for a psychiatrist in her case.

If you care more about "not offending her" than to help her, then you are not helping her.

If Hanekawa does possess some sort of mental illness, can you suggest what type of mentai illness is it or how to identify those symptoms?

Unless you know her personally like Araragi and Gahara or able to hear her thoughts like in the novel, and even then, it's still very difficult to pinpoint what's wrong with Hanekawa let alone labeling it as some kind of mental illness. From outsider's viewpoint she seems to behave normally and can clearly function in society or are you considering Black Hanekawa a type of MPD? I'm not saying there is nothing wrong with her, I just don't see how we can clasify it as mental illness.

Regarding the issue why it takes so many books focusing on her, I believe it make sense because the root cause her problem isn't something that can be figured out that easily compare to other characters. In Tsubasa Family and Cat, we only hear Araragi though about her and he isn't as frank when it comes to giving negative opinion about Hanekawa unlike his girlfriend or his mother for that matter. I think Araragi is trying to avoid discussing the these issues with Hanekawa out of fear that it might hurt her and their relationship. Another contributing factor could be Araragi wanting to preserve his perfect imagery of Hanekawa. However, Tsubasa Tiger takes an entire different approach where we shift focus from Araragi to Hanekawa so that we're able to hear people other than Araragi commenting about her situation and lecturing her about how she's dealing with it. So in the end, she managed to figure out the root of the problem not on her own, but by putting together various opinions of those who care for her. I think it took quite a long way for her to get to meet so many people who care for her and frank about their opinion of her.

[Vallen Chaos Valiant]

So you are saying I can't declare Hanekawa having a mental illness unless I can name a matching disease out of a book?

Good, that means she is perfectly fine like she says and we should just watch the Tiger burn the town down. There is nothing wrong at all, she is fine.

Hanekawa has a magic strengthened case of split personality disorder. She also has clear cases of event-selective amnesia. Is that good enough?

[Shikijin]

Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant

You are saying Hanekawa doesn't have a mental illness?

Yes. For example, can you give a name to this supposed mental illness? You can use the internet.

And I fail to see how it can be considered offensive.

In case you didn't notice, in the real world the words "mental illness" carry a powerful stigma. I suggest you to never use them unless you actually know a person who has or has had a mental illness.

Personally the line between mental disorder and mental illness, is if she needed a psychologist, or a psychiatrist.

You can actually go to a psychiatrist for both.

If you care more about "not offending her" than to help her, then you are not helping her.

By the way, are you a troll?

[Vallen Chaos Valiant]

Originally Posted by Shikijin

In case you didn't notice, in the real world the words "mental illness" carry a powerful stigma. I suggest you to never use them unless you actually know a person who has or has had a mental illness.

Ah, yes, Stigma. So now you see why Hanekawa's parents don't do anything, because they don't want to give her the "Stigma".

Guess what? If you care about stigma more than treatment, you doom people. People have died because they worry about stigma. People ended up hanging themselves because of a fear of stigma. Hanekawa's MOTHER died because of a fear of Stigma.

I care about helping people when they need help. I also know when the refusal to call a spade a spade ends in tragedy. What code word would you want me to use instead? How would you like me to propagate the stigma further by turning it into taboo, by making it something that should not be spoken in public?

Guess what? The Stigma is self-perpetuating. It is a stigma because you think it is okay to not say its name. Like it would go away if you treat it like Lord Voldemort.

By the way, are you a troll?

Do you feel you are being trolled? You say I offend people by saying a banned word. I say I need to say the right word for the correct situation. And that you need to explain your demand for censorship.

[Altima of the Gates]

Originally Posted by teja208

If Hanekawa does possess some sort of mental illness, can you suggest what type of mentai illness is it or how to identify those symptoms?

Unless you know her personally like Araragi and Gahara or able to hear her thoughts like in the novel, and even then, it's still very difficult to pinpoint what's wrong with Hanekawa let alone labeling it as some kind of mental illness. From outsider's viewpoint she seems to behave normally and can clearly function in society or are you considering Black Hanekawa a type of MPD? I'm not saying there is nothing wrong with her, I just don't see how we can clasify it as mental illness.

Regarding the issue why it takes so many books focusing on her, I believe it make sense because the root cause her problem isn't something that can be figured out that easily compare to other characters. In Tsubasa Family and Cat, we only hear Araragi though about her and he isn't as frank when it comes to giving negative opinion about Hanekawa unlike his girlfriend or his mother for that matter. I think Araragi is trying to avoid discussing the these issues with Hanekawa out of fear that it might hurt her and their relationship. Another contributing factor could be Araragi wanting to preserve his perfect imagery of Hanekawa. However, Tsubasa Tiger takes an entire different approach where we shift focus from Araragi to Hanekawa so that we're able to hear people other than Araragi commenting about her situation and lecturing her about how she's dealing with it. So in the end, she managed to figure out the root of the problem not on her own, but by putting together various opinions of those who care for her. I think it took quite a long way for her to get to meet so many people who care for her and frank about their opinion of her.

Thank you, that is exactly what I was getting at. Having the perspective of people who were willing to help her out gave her the the tools (a new perspective on the way she sees and handles situations) to dig herself out of the pure white facade she had built up that was slowly killing her as a person. One of the central themes of the story was that a person can only save themselves, and it was powerfully put in her case. Only she was able to see where she went wrong and only she can gain the new perspective she needed to fix the problem, people just provided her tools with their honest input.