Learning Japanese

[Kyuusai]

Originally Posted by TigerII

I was wondering if it would be possible to learn it by myself using language software, etc.

The answer is that you can IF you are a motivated self-learner. With the resources available today, it's possible to reach a remarkable level of proficiency without immersion (I say that, but centuries ago many people became totally fluent in other languages without immersion. Perhaps we're just lazy today).

If you've already learned other languages, you chould be fine so long as you're capable of wrapping your head around the different constructs. I personally find Japanese to be a very easy language (excepting a couple of points), but it's very different from western languages. Comparitively speaking, an English speaker who learns Spanish and German is pretty much only learning a new vocabulary for his own language, while an English speaker learning Japanese (or Chinese or Korean...) is learning a new way to communicate.

[TigerII]

I know, same goes for Russian. And I taught myself Spanish and am teaching myself German. I am motivated, I was just wondering if this was something that required help. But I guess that can go for any language. Using it with fluent speakers is always good. Why I was leaning more towards Russian. I could at least have somebody check me if I was wrong.

I just did not want to spend money on software if it would end up not helping.

[Kyuusai]

Originally Posted by TigerII

I know, same goes for Russian. And I taught myself Spanish and am teaching myself German. I am motivated, I was just wondering if this was something that required help. But I guess that can go for any language. Using it with fluent speakers is always good. Why I was leaning more towards Russian. I could at least have somebody check me if I was wrong.

I just did not want to spend money on software if it would end up not helping.

Most pay software is available with demos, but I don't know of any software package that doesn't come with a demo.

There are plenty of free resources, though, cited throughout this thread.

[WanderingKnight]

So you think its a good idea for me to learn the grammar structure first, I thought the use of particles would be more ideal but I'll take your word. I am using www.guidetojapanese.org as my study reference

In all honesty, the best those kind of references can do for you (in my personal experience, at least) is give you the basics, as I denoted in my last post. You've got to be very motivated to self-study a language like that, or in a very close contact with it.

Personally, I learned most of what I know from anime. That's the close contact I'm talking about. Though, I had be very wary, since Japanese people don't speak like anime characters. But it serves as a good point to rely your self-learning on, if you don't feel like taking actual classes. Remember, most of what those kind of language resource sites give you is the very basics, and many times they are crappy at what they do.

Getting accustomed to hearing the language, however informal the anime speech is, represents a very valuable experience. After a couple of months, having formally learned only a handful of basics, I found myself randomly ignoring the subs. Though extremely informal, anime can help you a lot, after learning the basic of the basic. Karaoke subs can help you a lot, too, since they feature romaji/kana version and a translation at the same time.

In the end, it all depends on how hard you focus. I'm only telling you my individual experience, which might be very different in your situation.

[CarpeDiem]

Originally Posted by WanderingKnight

In all honesty, the best those kind of references can do for you (in my personal experience, at least) is give you the basics, as I denoted in my last post. You've got to be very motivated to self-study a language like that, or in a very close contact with it.

Personally, I learned most of what I know from anime. That's the close contact I'm talking about. Though, I had be very wary, since Japanese people don't speak like anime characters. But it serves as a good point to rely your self-learning on, if you don't feel like taking actual classes. Remember, most of what those kind of language resource sites give you is the very basics, and many times they are crappy at what they do.

As a fellow self-study student of the language, I agree at the value of immersion when learning a foreign language, but we should not discredit the usefulness of sites like Tae Kim's Japanese Grammar (http://guidetojapanese.org). It is true that there are many terribly written guides on the internet, but I'd call Tae Kim's guide a jewel in the rough. Tae Kim does give you the basics, but he also dives into more intermediate topics. His guide in particular is recommended by many people who study Japanese, both formally and not. (There's a rather large population of JETs over at http://thejapanesepage.com who also recommend it.)

I've been self-studying seriously for the past year-and-a-half (after stopping on a four-year hiatus due to other priorities), and I constantly reference back to Tae Kim's guide. He covers many topics with rather concise explanations. Naturally, to drill material into your head, you'll have to use it or hear it a lot. This is where the immersion comes in (anime, drama, television, or if you're lucky enough, walking around Japan). Tae Kim's guide provides a solid foundation in grammar and is even useful for some intermediate topics. Back that up with a good dictionary (http://www.wwwjdic.com), some form of immersion, and you're on the right path.

[krysinello]

Yeah so its a good site to learn from them so I'll just go through it in order. I'll have to watch more anime subs aswell to try get more accustomed to listening to it, which I planned on doing anyways, cause I don't really have any access to anyone who speaks Japanese and the nearest uni that does offer the course is too far away, so I have to be self taught.

I am motivated, because there are certain things written in Japanese I must read or I feel I will die so, yeah my quest is to learn how to read basically.

[Mashda2k6]

When I use rikaichan I just get ????????? and then like some english words and no japanese things or anything :S whats wrong :s

[dreamweaver49]

Originally Posted by Megane

Ku is acceptable. I was told that this was because kyuu can also mean "suffering", but I have yet to validate this source. Kinda like how for 4, yon is favoured sometimes over shi because shi also means "death". What a happy number system.

Hah, thank you - someone who agrees with me! Anyway, it's not the きゅう [kyuu] pronounciation that's bad; it's the く [ku] way. It ends up sounding the same as 苦, the kanji for くるしい [kurushii], which generally means something like suffering. Roughly. Very roughly.

[FatPianoBoy]

Originally Posted by Shine

When I use rikaichan I just get ????????? and then like some english words and no japanese things or anything :S whats wrong :s

Did you install support for East Asian languages?
Did you install one of the dictionaries for rikaichan?

[TigerII]

I must admit, I can actuall understand a little(Very little, but still some) from anime. But I want to learn to read it more than hear it. Mainly because I want to be able to read novels and other reading material. There are quite a few titles that are not being translated that I would like to read.

Also, does it help I know alot of Japanese Pre-WWII term s? Seeing as I am a WWII buff, I know alot of the terms for weapons and tactics of the Japanese military before 1945.

[FatPianoBoy]

Originally Posted by TigerII

Also, does it help I know alot of Japanese Pre-WWII term s? Seeing as I am a WWII buff, I know alot of the terms for weapons and tactics of the Japanese military before 1945.

More knowledge never hurt anything. However, the language got an official overhaul in '45, so I'd be wary about inserting it into everyday conversation.

[TigerII]

I know, why I wondered if it would matter. First off most land military vehicles after the defeat of Japan were given numerical type names such as Type-etc. Before they had that but they used more common names suck as Ha Go and Chi Ha(Tanks). But the navy was thinking ahead. The common names you hear when talking about Japanese planes(Besides the zero, that was said by the Japanese) were given by the allies as code names since they had absolutely no idea what else to call them. That is where the common names Zeke, Betty, Val, Kate, etc. came from.

Another little fact, did you know alot of names in Evangelion are Japanese aircraft carries from WWII.

[krysinello]

I am currently learning the grammar and I want to check if I am getting the use of particles and identifiers right. 私は学生よくない。I was trying to write I am not a good student. Is that correct?　

[FatPianoBoy]

Originally Posted by krysinello

I am currently learning the grammar and I want to check if I am getting the use of particles and identifiers right. 私は学生よくない。I was trying to write I am not a good student. Is that correct?　

Close:
私はよくない学生（だ；です）
Like in English, the modifier comes before the word it modifies. Unlike English, this rule is ironclad in Japanese, unless you're forming a sentence like 空が青い or something.

[krysinello]

ah ok, still should try something else, I'll try to think of another sentence I can right with the words I wrote to try it. Glad I am starting to get the idea though

値段はよくないだ（The price is not good). I hope thats right.
それよくない映画だ（Ｔｈａｔ’ｓ　ｎｏｔ　ａ　ｇｏｏｄ　ｍｏｖｉｅ）hope so.

for 空が青い(the sky is blue I think), does the い come after if you are saying something is something then say, not good student where it comes before, say if I was to say I am a good student, would it be 私はい学生だ where as if I say I am blue i right 私は青い, I put it after?

[WanderingKnight]

それよくない映画だ（Ｔｈａｔ’ｓ　ｎｏｔ　ａ　ｇｏｏｄ　ｍｏｖｉｅ）hope so.

You should add は after それ, and remember, most of times it's better to use です instead of だ for safety precautions.

would it be 私はい学生だ

Not exactly sure what you mean by that. It should be 私はいい学生だ (いい is the only irregular adjective).

[い] adjectives work exactly like any regular adjective in English, if not for the temporal and positive conjugations (which you'll see later, I suppose). The other type of adjectives, the [な/だ] adjectives, have other twists to their regular usage, which you'll see later. Suffice to say that when they are used as pre-modifiers (that is, before the noun, inside the same grammatical construction), and not as predicative complements (that is, modifying a noun in the subject from the very predicate), you need to add a な between the adjective and the noun. For example:

私はしんせつな人です (in this case, the noun 人 takes しんせつ as a pre-modifier).

as opposed to:

私はしんせつです (In this case しんせつ works as a predicative complement, so no addition needed).

[krysinello]

ah ok, I'm getting it, oh and for that, 私はい学生だ, just mispelt. Verbs seem to be easy enough, anything that ends in u or ru cept for 2 words make them verbs, that helps me out a bit. I guess with some practice I will get this eventually. And thanks for making me realise the proper use of the na adjective, was having trouble with that one.

[FatPianoBoy]

What WanderingKnight said is correct, but it confused me despite knowing what he's talking about.

Originally Posted by krysinello

値段はよくないだ（The price is not good). I hope thats right.
それよくない映画だ（Ｔｈａｔ’ｓ　ｎｏｔ　ａ　ｇｏｏｄ　ｍｏｖｉｅ）hope so.

for 空が青い(the sky is blue I think), does the い come after if you are saying something is something then say, not good student where it comes before, say if I was to say I am a good student, would it be 私はい学生だ where as if I say I am blue i right 私は青い, I put it after?

値段はよくないだ:
When dealing with い adjectives, the い acts in place of だ. Verbs and い adjectives are closely related in Japanese. If you still feel the need to use だ, you would have to nominalize よくない with の. の not only shows possession, it also nominalizes verbs and い adjectives so that you can stick another verb on the end. You'll also see and hear this の contracted into ん occasionally.

それよくない映画だ:
See WK's post.

空が青い:
If I understood you correctly, I think you've got it. It works the same as in English: "The sky is blue" - 'blue' follows 'sky.' In "I am a bad student," 'bad student' is a clause, which means it's a group of words that function together. This sentence is actually the same as "the sky is blue" in that 'bad student' is modifying 'I.' You could also say "the sky is deep blue" instead.

[Nagato]

Originally Posted by krysinello

それよくない映画だ（Ｔｈａｔ’ｓ　ｎｏｔ　ａ　ｇｏｏｄ　ｍｏｖｉｅ）hope so.

Like WK stated before, You better not to omit the particle. Using desu instead of da is also recommended, when you don't really get the situation. (argh this topic again).

But in casual conversation with close enough people for example, indeed you can omit the particle.
それ、良くない映画だ is fine. Not only は、but also に and another particles can be omitted as long as it still makes sense (you can learn how to do it from, well, anime, TV programs, etc).

[krysinello]

well I know about desu, though I am trying to stick to the guide as possibe, and since polite form hasn't been teached yet, I am sticking away from using it till then. I havent learnt the use of the ni particle but isn't called the target particle, used in say, go over there or something.

(sorry for the lack of japanese this time, eating tea lol.)