2012-12-16, 13:06 | Link #161 | ||
Moving in circles
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Singapore
Age: 49
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I disagree with the karma suggestion, though. It puts too much power in the hands of the moderators and lacks transparency. The potential for abuse is very much stronger than in the retired reputation system. Quote:
Sure, it works for lighthearted posts. But when I visit, say, Yahoo! Singapore's news pages and browse the comments, I invariably find people overwhelmingly "liking" anyone who takes an anti-government, anti-mainstream stance, no matter how thin on substance the comments are. Let's not forget that, in the end, we are all effectively anonymous so long as we use log-in IDs instead of our real names and identities. This has long been both the boon and bane of the Internet, in that anonymity brings out the worst in people even as it gives others an outlet to express themselves. The reputation system reflected this dichotomy. Hobbling it to the point where it reflects only the good creates an illusion I'd rather people do without. There is another word for it: propaganda. So, sad to say, I strongly disagree with Triple_R on the effectiveness of "likes" as a means of registering approval. In the end, it will become a popularity contest that is only slightly different from what we had. Let's just grow up already and dispense with the need for such artificial means of measuring our "approval rating". If one is looking for such approval, visit a social media site instead, rather than a discussion forum where we're supposed to share opinions, not our adulation for each other. Last edited by TinyRedLeaf; 2012-12-16 at 13:20. |
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2012-12-16, 13:17 | Link #162 | ||
Junior Member
Join Date: Dec 2005
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You might asked why they would care. They might not care about the rep itself, but some might care if it affects how some other people view them. In essence, the idea that you can not "play the game" of reputation is false since that black box may still affect you in how some others view you. Quote:
Now, I realize that the moderators do not want people to have a little "rep war" going on, but if they restrict the responses to the public threads, then people might be more civil with each other. Yes, I understand about the one-liner thank you posts. I try to find ways around that myself whenever I feel I may need to thank someone. But overall, I think that's a small price to pay compared to the recently retired system. Last edited by monster; 2012-12-16 at 13:29. |
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2012-12-16, 13:51 | Link #163 | ||
Senior Member
Join Date: Dec 2005
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I mean the anonymous aspect of the whole thing was certainly a cause for all the drama. So logically speaking, if you cut out the anonymous aspect to it, you shouldn't have to worry about all the inappropriateness nearly as much. |
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2012-12-16, 14:03 | Link #164 | |
AniMexican!
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Monterrey N.L. Mexico
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In reply to Irenicus' request:
When dealing with reputation abuse cases, I pretty much never saw a person that was annoyed by the neg-rep points per see. What angered most was the comments (or lack there of) left behind. As we tried to deal with such cases, we realized that some people would always try to find a way to go around moderation and still try to insult others by rep. Positive reps with a sarcastic near insulting remarks, naming your neg-rep after someone else, fake reps*, duplicate accounts created exclusively to rep others, rep messages in other languages, etc. This were all used as a way to abuse the system and as a way to avoid moderation; something that we often discussed and things that often changed the way we dealt with some cases. It takes two to tango of course, and it is simply not fair to blame the "trolls" of everything. Because, yes, even the victims had found ways to abuse the system as well: Quote:
This are, by the way, only some of the things that were discussed among the staff while dealing with reputation, but hopefully, enough to give you a better idea of the problems we have to dealt with in this matter. *A threat of neg-rep without actually doing it.
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2012-12-16, 14:05 | Link #165 | ||||
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I think that you're being overly cynical in some of your assessments. I think some people will give out likes because they found the content of a post to be well-written, meaningful, or helpful. Quote:
Suppose someone's a newcomer to Yahoo! Singapore's news pages, and don't yet know what the predominant political opinions of its commentators are. Well, seeing all the anti-government, anti-mainstream posts get lots of likes will be very telling right away of what most of the people who read and comment on those news pages think. I don't see how having such information ("Well, they clearly like anti-government, anti-mainstream opinions here") can be harmful. Isn't it good to have as clear an idea as possible of what you're getting into before you post? If "liking" posts reveals the popular anime taste preferences of Anime Suki's userbase, then I think that can be similarly informative. Quote:
However, while popularity would be rewarded by "likes" so would well-written, meaningful, and helpful posts I think. I definitely could see likes being a nice way to thank artists, avatar-makers, and sig-makers for their contributions, for example. Quote:
People of all ages use social media sites. And liking is obviously extremely popular there. Clearly plenty of grown-ups engage in liking, and enjoy the feature. People aren't robots, and I think we shouldn't pretend that we are.
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2012-12-16, 14:15 | Link #166 | |
ISML Technical Staff
Graphic Designer
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I feel sad that some of the arguments here depend on the assumption that the reader doesn't have the ability to judge the quality of posts and have to rely on some bar. What I feel is that the rep system was for each individual member, and by that I mean not just the ability to receive but to give. So I don't really care how other people view it. It was so convenient for me to pos rep a good post, or in fact several good posts in a row in the same thread without quoting them all and then type out..."I agree"?
Every member can view rep differently, and what's wrong with that? If someone feels the need to pre-judge posts by rep, then that's good for them! If someone disables rep, then others may think they have something to hide. But the one who disables rep ARE those who wouldn't care what others think why they hide their rep. I'm with Ledgem on this one. We're just having a huge "what ifs" debate and making some broad generalizations about how people view rep. That also means for those who circlejerk good rep up, like Klash said, most normal members won't notice. So that would mean...pretty much what it means, the normal members won't notice and won't be affected. And if they are affected somehow, then we go back to the original retarded assumption that people can't judge the quality of posts for themselves and have to rely on a bar. This means I don't like this argument at all, why should a very small, unnoticeable portion of the community be one of the reasons to wipe out rep? It shouldn't. EDIT: What I mean is this. When I found out that there are pos rep circlejerk groups, my reaction was...okay? Did it affect me in some way? No. Did I feel like it's stupid? Yes. But was I angry or anything? No. So it's not such a big deal like some make it to be. Quote:
As I posted this before, I know that the moderation side of this sucks. And I'm saying it shouldn't have to suck that much by removing neg rep. There, half of the problem. The other half, artificial pos rep boosting, is summarized above. It doesn't matter to other people outside of the circlejerking group and at the end of they day they just wasted their time boosting up a bar that is meaningless, but fun for many of us have around.
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Last edited by KholdStare; 2012-12-16 at 14:35. |
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2012-12-16, 14:26 | Link #167 | |
Junior Member
Join Date: Dec 2005
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I guess what I'm saying is, if we're going to have some kind of reputation system, at least remove the comment option altogether. If someone wants to comment on a post, then do it in the thread (except for rule-breaking posts, of course, which should just be reported). If someone wants to comment more generally about a poster regarding his/her post(s), then use PM/VM. |
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2012-12-16, 14:37 | Link #169 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Dec 2005
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On a slightly unrelated note, could a moderator tell me if I'm allowed to create a new thread to voice this suggestion? I'd certainly like to get more feedback regarding it. But its not exactly going to get as much attention in a thread as active as this where its easy to look over. Last edited by sayde; 2012-12-16 at 14:52. |
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2012-12-16, 14:37 | Link #170 | ||
Junior Member
Join Date: Dec 2005
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2012-12-16, 14:46 | Link #171 |
Still Alive
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Somewhere far far away
Age: 30
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It seems, like system - with likes being only visible to the said poster - is the most efficient system that will appease most(if not all) of the people here. If, I'm not mistaken, most here who want the rep system want it because it was a convienient method to show appreciation, right? And not because they were pissed that their green bars are being stripped.
As long as that's the reason, the like system or the neutral rep suggested by Sayde seems adequate enough.
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2012-12-16, 14:51 | Link #172 | ||
Bittersweet Distractor
Join Date: Nov 2007
Age: 32
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Basically, the system did not affect me personally, but I could see how it would affect others and that is why I support it being abolished. Quote:
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2012-12-16, 14:54 | Link #173 | |
Senior Member
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My one issue with the neutral rep system is that I honestly think it could create these little secret flamewars between two or more members. Eventually, I could see that spilling over to the main public threads in ways we probably don't want.
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2012-12-16, 14:59 | Link #174 | |
Administrator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Age: 41
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As for making a separate thread about your suggestion... I don't want to increase your expectation at the moment that any specific solution would be considered. We would like to go at least for a time without a rep/feedback system. If you get too many people too invested into building a solution, I'm just telling you right now: we may very well say no, even if you consider it well-considered. So please be advised about that. (This also applies to the currently-being-floated "like" system idea. There is no guarantee that we will adopt any system, particularly right now while we're still on vBulletin 3.8, because nobody wants to add any more plugins or do any custom programming to this vBulletin install unless absolutely necessary.)
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2012-12-16, 15:07 | Link #175 | ||
Senior Member
Join Date: Dec 2005
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With regards to a like/dislike system vs the issue of simply leaving neutral rep, I'm not generally a big advocate of the like/dislike system only because I prefer to know a little more. For instance, why did you like my post? Or why did you dislike it? Leaving neutral rep as a way to express such feedback seems like it would fall in line better with the intended goal of making this site the most "engaging, and insightful community for Anime and related discussion" as even quick comments can still provide some level of engagement and insightfulness (or at least more so in comparison to a thumbs up or down.) |
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2012-12-16, 15:12 | Link #176 | ||
AniMexican!
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Monterrey N.L. Mexico
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This is something that may not always affect you, but it is something that always affects someone else.
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2012-12-16, 15:14 | Link #177 | |
廉頗
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Massachusetts
Age: 34
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You were here before rep was a big factor, too, so I'm sure you know that there will be no precipitous decline in post quality upon its removal. I can't envision anything but more rounded discussions, though I admit I can't *factually* back that up. If I've read your concerns correctly, you want a way of awarding seniority/loyalty over the years. I think the join date accomplishes that just fine. If you're still active and have an early join date, people will recognize you as a longtime member. No guarantees that anybody will care, however |
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2012-12-16, 15:17 | Link #178 | ||
Senior Member
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Honestly, I really don't see where the rep system was causing "less rounded" discussions. Personally, I think that the caliber of discourse here on Anime Suki is a solid notch or two above most other message boards I've come across.
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2012-12-16, 15:26 | Link #179 | |
廉頗
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Massachusetts
Age: 34
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2012-12-16, 15:36 | Link #180 | |
Administrator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Age: 41
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It should be said: the whole reason rep was visible as part of the profile information next to each post is that you were "supposed to" use it to infer information about the poster's identity. What reaction you had to the information conveyed could obviously vary, but it was placed there to be noticed. It would be odd if people saw it there and didn't use it to inform any judgements whatsoever (because otherwise, why even have it there in the first place?).
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forum, reputation |
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