Guilty Crown - General Discussion

[Kiyomizu]

Originally Posted by Toto y Moi

I thought that it was kind of racist and sexist?

It's obvious that Guilty Crown was created to inspire nationalism in Japanese otaku. And granted, the world doesn't have a high opinion of the US in general. But all of the foreign characters are exceedingly evil. Not to mention that the first couple of villains are violent stereotypes of african-american men. One abuses women and one is a thug. Great.

Is it impossible for a black person to be evil?
Were the evil black characters the only evil characters in the episode?
One black character was portrayed as one member of a large organization. The other was shown to be one member of a mostly white group of thugs.

Originally Posted by Toto y Moi

It was also exceedingly cliche. Childhood friends? "I couldn't do anything to protect her"? Ugh. Shu is the weakest protagonist we've seen in awhile.

Shu is a weak protagonist? He had four or five guns pointed at him and was told he would be purged if he interfered. He then put himself in even more danger because he decided to rescue Inori.

Was he supposed to do this without a second thought? He's a 17 year old putting himself into situations that could easily get him killed or arrested because he wanted to save someone. That doesn't sound weak to me.

[Arabesque]

Originally Posted by Kiyomizu

Shu is a weak protagonist?

While he's behavior could be justified, I think that the scene after Inori's capture where he was just on the floor drowning in self-pity was pretty spineless lol I wouldn't list him as the weakest, but so far he seems to lack a back bone.

[Jeffry2009]

Ladies & gentlemen, I give you a greatest fanart ever only on Pixiv.

[Kunagisa]

Getting a little bit bored of the current discussion ... except for 505, 530, a bit at 570.

Come on guys! I've already got crazy theories like how the girl in the flashback is Shu's sister. How Inori's not human and is actually a clone (going with the cellular terms they're already throwing out in the episode) so she doesn't really feel anything and IS A COPY OF SHU'S DEAD IMOUTO. We have wonderful ideas like DNA based power from (IMAGINE THE FUJOSHI POTENTIAL, HE COULD BE PULLING WEAPONS OUT OF A GAI, c wut i did dere), and terms like genome and antibodies (maybe they might have MHC-peptide complexes and T cell activation etc. etc.; yeah I'm clearly going way out there).

The moment Shu first interact with London bridge falling down girl, he got those weird images that he himself don't even know about!! COULD IT BE THAT HE LOST HIS MEMORIESSSS? Maybe Gai somehow already knew him from beforeeee??? Where are the theory craftings?

Like Kaioshin Sama and Iron21 and many other mentioned, YES WE KNOW IT'S SIMILAR, hell the director and script writer probably knew we're going to make comparisons anyway, but at least deviate a little and talk about things that a million other people is not already thinking about.

Hell, reading comments like

^this is a MUST-NOT-FAP.JPG is more interesting.

[Dann of Thursday]

Originally Posted by stuopidget

[B][U]

Come on guys! I've already got crazy theories like how the girl in the flashback is Shu's sister. How Inori's not human and is actually a clone (going with the cellular terms they're already throwing out in the episode) so she doesn't really feel anything and IS A COPY OF SHU'S DEAD IMOUTO.

I had a similar idea regarding Inori either being a clone or construct copy of whoever that girl was, though it is possible she is the same girl just older and changed slightly due to what happened to her.



Someone mentioned it earlier and while I'd like to get away from the comparisons, certain aspects of this did remind me a little of Eureka Seven at least in spirit.

[Toto y Moi]

Originally Posted by Kiyomizu

Is it impossible for a black person to be evil?
Were the evil black characters the only evil characters in the episode?
One black character was portrayed as one member of a large organization. The other was shown to be one member of a mostly white group of thugs.

The only people who threatened the protagonists directly in this episode were both black, and those people adhered to stereotypes. You don't see any good dark-skinned characters in any of the promotional art or in any of the resistance. Granted, maybe it is a little early to judge. But with respect to race, I can't say that we're not off to a good start.

Originally Posted by Kiyomizu

Shu is a weak protagonist? He had four or five guns pointed at him and was told he would be purged if he interfered. He then put himself in even more danger because he decided to rescue Inori.

Was he supposed to do this without a second thought? He's a 17 year old putting himself into situations that could easily get him killed or arrested because he wanted to save someone. That doesn't sound weak to me.

I already clarified this. Weak personality. Not in courage. Nervous, timid. He's sort of a follower and he even says this himself.

[Arabesque]

LOL, I had no idea you read Aroduc's blog

Originally Posted by stuopidget

so she doesn't really feel anything and IS A COPY OF SHU'S DEAD IMOUTO.

Obligatory winsest comment goes here.

I personally didn't want to focus too much on the flashing past images too much since it might be like Blue-Kun had said and we don't learn about what they actually mean until the Nitro+ game is out, so we might just go around in circles trying to piece them together (that and I got tired from collecting the screens ... hey I didn't say I didn't try to see all of them :P)

Either way, I'm more interested in what her relationship is with Gai more than anything else.

Originally Posted by stuopidget

We have wonderful ideas like DNA based power from (IMAGINE THE FUJOSHI POTENTIAL, HE COULD BE PULLING WEAPONS OUT OF A GAI, c wut i did dere)

You know that behind that bravado, what Shuu is going to pull out is going to be just a pen ... a really small pen.

ya i can do it 2

I thought that the power was more based on the relationship/personality of the two people as opposed to their actual genetics, thought I suppose it could be all those factors. Either way I doubt the show is going to go into depths into what causes a hand to suddenly draw a sword from a girls boob, at least not soon.

Originally Posted by stuopidget

The moment Shu first interact with London bridge falling down girl, he got those weird images that he himself don't even know about!! COULD IT BE THAT HE LOST HIS MEMORIESSSS?

The London bridge song sort of annoyed over how much the symbolism got really blatant, but I get what your saying. It could be his trauma from 10 years ago that made him repress all these memories about how apparently Inori(?) and chibi-Gai got killed, but I think it could also be some form of memory sharing between the two during that scene or something.

Originally Posted by stuopidget

Where are the theory craftings?

Being crafted still. There was a lot to take in the episode, so unless it's crack, good grounded theories wont show up until episode 2 I think when we have more info to go on from.

@Dann

I did get a small Eureka Seven vibe as well, but I think that had to do with how the show felt like it was made by BONES than anything. That and I think Shuu's attempt to change his self by saving Inori did bare a slight resemblance to how Renton's decision to fly at the end of the first episode, but I think that might be stretching it a bit.

[TrueKnight]

Making comparisons couldn’t be helped since there were already gazillion of series made resembling one another. And doing comparison doesn’t mean we hate the show, some, if not most of us are even liking it.

About Shu he may start up as weak, eventhough I found his actions are completely justifiable in this ep, there’s a chance for him to actually develop into something in future ep. The moment already started when he muster the courage to deliver Funnel to Gai’s location as pointed out on the map, subsequently followed by his decision in the end to actually save Inori from the robot. Instead of running and being his old self he did those things. So there are two milestones for his character development in ep 1, and I believe there will be more to come in the future. Also I hope they provide more insight on Gai.

[Cosmic Eagle]

Originally Posted by stuopidget

Come on guys! I've already got crazy theories like how the girl in the flashback is Shu's sister. How Inori's not human and is actually a clone (going with the cellular terms they're already throwing out in the episode) so she doesn't really feel anything and IS A COPY OF SHU'S DEAD IMOUTO. We have wonderful ideas like DNA based power from (IMAGINE THE FUJOSHI POTENTIAL, HE COULD BE PULLING WEAPONS OUT OF A GAI, c wut i did dere), and terms like genome and antibodies (maybe they might have MHC-peptide complexes and T cell activation etc. etc.; yeah I'm clearly going way out there).

The moment Shu first interact with London bridge falling down girl, he got those weird images that he himself don't even know about!! COULD IT BE THAT HE LOST HIS MEMORIESSSS? Maybe Gai somehow already knew him from beforeeee??? Where are the theory craftings?

Or Inori's an amalgation of dead souls...

Pretty certain the Apocalypse Virus is a bio-attack...

[Nosauz]

There is a heavy Eureka Seven vibe especially with Gai/The Undertakers and the rogue group in E7.

Also the the relationship between Gai and Inori is supposedly sexual although that's currently speculation, in the relationship magizine spread it says some sort of secret relationship, but as far as I'm concerned the show really needs to have the MC not be so sniveling.

@Arabesque, who doesn't read Arudoc, dude is hilarious.

[Guardian Enzo]

I think they mixed up the credit lists on NoitaminA this season. This show is as BONES as BONES can get.

[Skyfall]

Originally Posted by jeroz

personally i find the characters and set up to be the weakest part of the first episode

Indeed, having thought more on it, that's my main sentiment about the episode as well. I love the post apocalyptic (kinda) setting, the gloomy and oppressive mood, the shadow politics behind the scenes, secret army divisions, rebel resistance, the works. The world setup is ripe for a great show, but it's the characters operating within said setup that didn't quite allow the first ep to truly shine.

Inori aside, whom I found aptly intriguing for the most part, the other two characters worth noting from ep1 were Gai and Shu. Gai is alright as the badass resistance leader (though they overdid his entrance, and him allowing Shun to simply run off with the genome was a bit ...questionable), but it's Shun that has the most negative aspect on the setup and the overall seriousness of the mood of the story. Which is pretty ironic, since he is supposed to be one of the central figures for the show to revolve around.

No, I am not talking about his personality, but rather the events that stem from his involvement. Namely, the last two or so minutes of the episode - I found them quite out of touch with the mood and identity of the rest of the ep. What had been a rather realistic, if a bit over the top, depiction of oppressive regime and the military's crushing down the opposition suddenly came to a screeching halt when a teenage schoolboy came yelling down the street, pulled a magical three meter sword from hammerspace within the main female's chest and proceeded to dice up a modern military vehicle.

This sequence of events seriously propelled the show in the eyebrow-raising territory for me, and was the main reason that prevented me taking the show seriously as a whole. Everything had been more or less perfect up to the very end, where the gritty realism took a backseat to the revelation that this uuber-secret weapon that the military have been developing is ... an oversized sword. Bleh. I felt somewhat betrayed by that being the big secret of the genome.

And that is my main gripe with the episode - everything would have been perfect, from fantastic visuals to occasionally gripping music to gritty, "realistic" setup, if not for Shu showing up and developing the ability to pull swords from female chests amidst all of it. Swords that are, apparently, superior to modern military equipment. It felt like a pesky drop of oil amidst an otherwise clear glass of water. It won't ruin the drink, but will make you wince at the fact it's not as good as it could have been.

Ironic, really, but the impression I got from ep 1 was that the show would actually gain from the absence of Shu, and the concepts he brings along with himself. Ah well, it was still a good start, better than most other things this season, but sadly the final few minutes felt like they took away from the great world building effort the episode did before them, rather than added to it.

[Haak]

Originally Posted by Toto y Moi

Even if it's not unusual for racist depictions to exist, does that make it right? In 2011, there are plenty of modern-day anime in which people of all skin colors aren't treated as dehumanized stereotypes. I don't understand how a program that's already showed it thinks people of color are scum is being so lauded.

I was talking more about the nationalism. As for the racism I don't think either of them were actually African american (or did you mean African-Japanese?). The guy in the white coat was just tanned and the second one that tried to rob Shu was actually Japanese. And plus it's not just the darker skins. It seems they hate them all:

Spoiler for space:

[Reckoner]

Originally Posted by Skyfall

Ironic, really, but the impression I got from ep 1 was that the show would actually gain from the absence of Shu, and the concepts he brings along with himself. Ah well, it was still a good start, better than most other things this season, but sadly the final few minutes felt like they took away from the great world building effort the episode did before them, rather than added to it.

This.

However there was one other issue I had with this episode which I was discussing with a friend and it was simply how black and white, simplistic everything was. It just lacked any kind of subtlety in its story telling. We're just led to believe that these foreign occupiers are bad people and that's it. This show would benefit far more from not being so black and white, and being more grey. It does a lot of injustice to its setting and does not make quite the best use of it.

This is why I was saying earlier that not only do I hope Shu gets much better character exploration/development, but I also hope something or someone arises to provide an interesting foil to our main character to make this more interesting.

Still it's episode 1, and I'll give them the benefit of the doubt for now, but I guess I am a tiny bit uncomfortable that this show could swing in a bad direction pretty easily if not handled well.

[Kaioshin Sama]

For me the show hit some eyebrow raising territory the second Inori appeared on screen for the first time. You can tell they felt they had to make ample use of that character design and revealing outfit at every opportunity. Sometimes she just seemed to be posing for the hell of it. In fact I'm pretty sure we'd seen 360 degrees of her body by the end of the episode.

By the way, now that I've had a night to think about it, I can't help but agree completely that the show definitely has a bit of a mash up feel. From the staff involved (Supercell's otaku/idol/band appeal versus Sawano's more mainstream orchestral/composer/conductor appeal and Okouchi's reservation versus Yoshino's "let's run wild and sexy" philosophy) to the way the characters are designed (sexy Inori, handsome gai, bland Shu), to the way they are portrayed, even to the concepts, tropes and genres at play (mecha, fantasy, sci-fi, political, military, action, romance, drama...there's a bit of everything in this episode). It all seems put into this episode to maximize cross demographic appeal and frankly it seems to work cause there's all kinds of people with different tastes that I'd normally never see on the same thread together on this forum.

[Jarmel]

Originally Posted by Nosauz

There is a heavy Eureka Seven vibe especially with Gai/The Undertakers and the rogue group in E7.

Also the the relationship between Gai and Inori is supposedly sexual although that's currently speculation, in the relationship magizine spread it says some sort of secret relationship, but as far as I'm concerned the show really needs to have the MC not be so sniveling.

@Arabesque, who doesn't read Arudoc, dude is hilarious.

As I posted earlier, my guess is that there is a childhood connection between the three that broke apart. Gai already seems to know Shu.

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by Reckoner

This.

What you and Skyfall are complaining about was right there in the PV for the show. The show's promotional material was quite open about how it was not hardcore realistic. This really shouldn't be an issue, imo. I have to be frank: It's a bit like someone going into Higurashi and saying "What's with all this gore all of a sudden?!".

However there was one other issue I had with this episode which I was discussing with a friend and it was simply how black and white, simplistic everything was.

Legend of the Galactic Heroes can be pretty black and white, and at times simplistic, in its themes against war in general.

Monster wasn't exactly subtle in how it portrayed its main antagonist.

Both are still widely regarded as two of the finest anime shows of all-time.

It just lacked any kind of subtlety in its story telling. We're just led to believe that these foreign occupiers are bad people and that's it.

That's not exactly accurate, as I pointed out before with my points pertaining to the GHQ Supreme Commander.

This show would benefit far more from not being so black and white, and being more grey.

Why? You don't think there's ever been rather "black" oppressive regimes in human history?

There's nothing this anime has displayed so far that's more evil than what loads of oppressive regimes in real world history was like. I'd honestly argue that painting with bold strokes here may well help aid whatever points and themes that Guilty Crown attempts to convey.

I greatly prefer this to something that glorifies moral ambiguity to the point that there's no character worth rooting for, imo.

[Haak]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

Why? You don't think there's ever been rather "black" oppressive regimes in human history?

True but only in developing coutries. Now it's a lot more morally ambiguous when it comes to developed countries and their foreign policies and I don't see how that'll change

[Funkatron]

Originally Posted by Guardian Enzo

I think they mixed up the credit lists on NoitaminA this season. This show is as BONES as BONES can get.

You mean the fact that it doesn't explain anything to stay mysterious? To early to judge that

[Inori X Horizon]

Great first episode! Can't wait for the next episode and Inori <3 <3 <3

For me its to early to compare this anime with Code Geass or something! How can i compare a finished anime (50 episodes) with a new anime (1 episode)?! And i don't see Code Geass as a masterpiece. I'm even sure GC will go his own way. So guys pls wait with such comments until its finished.


Now my speculations
But first... please forgive me if my english grammar is really bad. English is not my native language, but i'm still learning

Spoiler for Speculations:

I'm sure the girl in the flashback was Inori. Why? It's not only she looks like Inori...i mean everybody has seen the extrem huge and powerful sword he has drawn out of her. Now look closer at his power. The power "Guilty Crown" given shape through the bond between hearts. How can they have such a strong bond if they have only met once and only for a few minutes. I think they have met each other many years ago and they have this strong bond until now ..but they don't remember each other anymore.

I'm also sure this boy in the flashback is Gai. I think he and Shu were friends in their childhood. Gai seems to know him, he even knew Shu's full name. But Shu never told him before. He also told Shu to protect the phial. Nobody would let someone he doesn't know protect something so important. It could be that he is the only one who has still his memory of what happened in the past to Shu, Inori and himself.

I believe Shu had this "Guilty Crown" power as a child. Maybe it was a result or mutation from
that Virus. He activated his power accidentally and his friends Inori + Gai were badly hurt (flashback) And that's maybe the reason why he dont remember her or Gai (trauma?! or has anyone erased his memory?!) This could also be the reason why he is so unsocial, a coward and keep his distance to other people.
Also look at Gai face at 20:25 ...that badass guy look really scared. Im sure he has seen this power as a child before he was hurt.

What is with that Scientist in the flashback? I think Shu was examined after this accident by this GHQ Scientist. So the GHQ got their hands on the Void Genom. Maybe they removed or deactivated that genom in Shu's body and after the phial broke (18:36) he got his power back. I could be that the scientist has erased or altered his memory. especially if the woman (12:23) next to this scientist is really Shu's mother (19:28).