2010-05-01, 20:58 | Link #9701 | |
Back off, I'm a scientist
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: In a badly written story.
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There's a few more interesting things I noticed while looking it up. For one, polydactily is encountered in 0.2% of all live births, (2 out of 1000) which is not that often. But that's 'any' polydactily. Humans tend to be born with four appendages, and that 0.2% accounts for cases of polydactily a single one. Assuming that it's independent per appendage, which it probably isn't, the real occurence of six toes on both legs is between 0.2% and 0.04%. That can go down to one in 2.5 million, good luck finding a corpse like that. But most cases of polydactily also produce digits without proper bones, which is why they can be safely removed. For toes to remain recognizable on a thoroughly burned corpse, they need to have bones in them, whether they split off from the standard five in the middle of a phalanx or further up the bone structure. That is much more rare, dropping Kinzo's chance to have those on both feet down to 1 in hundreds of millions and possibly making him completely unique. It's no wonder that it was seen as a sign of extreme luck. Now, I wonder if Ryukishi actually researched all that. That, actually, depends on how long did Kinzo suffer any symptoms and whether Nanjo actually knew what they were. Incidentally, Nanjo never shares a complete diagnosis even when challenged to do so in Ep1. He even refers to "some kind of fit", literally, which makes me wonder if he really knows anything about the way Kinzo died by that moment. If you know what your patient died of, there's never 'some' kind of fit.
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2010-05-01, 21:04 | Link #9702 | |||
Endless Turnless
Join Date: Mar 2010
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Though a hint might be found in how Bern compares the whole thing to: "And then there were no Acroyds". In other words, those two Christie books put as one there should share some common things with the truth Battler shows (as they do). However, since the Bern specifically mentions it when the conversation concern Kinzo's corpse, it could have something to do with it..............maybe. Quote:
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2010-05-01, 21:13 | Link #9703 | ||
Mystery buff
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Gone Fishin!
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Quite a few things could be used as "proof" that he's dead to the humans on the island.
and these are all things you could use in court if the corpse was "missing". Quote:
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Last edited by Judoh; 2010-05-01 at 21:25. |
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2010-05-01, 21:28 | Link #9704 | ||
Back off, I'm a scientist
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: In a badly written story.
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At 5 billion people alive in 1986, and something like 50 million dead that year, finding a second legally dead polydactile corpse with two non-boneless extra toes has to require a Bernkastel-style miracle. Finding an illegally dead one should be a bit easier, but still prohibitively hard - it's cheaper to think of a way to stick two extra toes on a different corpse.
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2010-05-01, 21:30 | Link #9705 |
Mystery buff
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Gone Fishin!
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That and even if they had polydactyli there is no guarantee they would still have the extra toe. Since they mentioned in episode 1 that babies with polydactyli often have the extra digit removed at birth.
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2010-05-02, 07:47 | Link #9707 |
Tortured Pet
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: In "Her" crime scenes
Age: 32
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Quite true. However there can be evidence that can stand out that they had polydactyli or not. My little brother had polydactyli on his left hand when he was born but it was removed. In it's place is a small bump like piece of flesh took form. It doesn't have to be so obvious like how his was as it could leave a little mark like a cut on it. But then again it depends on the individual...
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2010-05-02, 11:47 | Link #9708 | ||||
Endless Turnless
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2010-05-02, 13:01 | Link #9709 | |
Back off, I'm a scientist
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: In a badly written story.
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In Ep3 in particular, George in a narration to himself, wherein he accepts and praises the witch, proposes a logical reason for Kinzo to be obsessed with Western magic rather than Eastern -- George believes Eastern traditions do not include a resurrection spell in their repertoire, while Western traditions, inheriting from Christianity, which is supposed to believe in bodily resurrection of the dead at the second coming, do have such a spell. Keeping the body intact after death instead of cremating it becomes a priority. I'm pretty sure he is wrong in general (taoist magic and onmyodo come to mind) but in particular anything closely related to Shinto indeed would tend to avoid having anything to do with dead bodies. And I get the feeling whoever decided to preserve Kinzo's corpse, instead of cremating it immediately, shared George's notion. That is, someone might have seriously considered the (im)possibility of resurrecting Kinzo. Who would that be?...
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2010-05-02, 13:51 | Link #9710 | ||
Mystery buff
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Location: Gone Fishin!
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Last edited by Judoh; 2010-05-02 at 14:26. |
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2010-05-02, 14:47 | Link #9711 | ||
Endless Turnless
Join Date: Mar 2010
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The only way to go about it to present a corpse, and to prove that the corpse is the corpse of Ushiromiya Kinzo. That is because it would prove that Kinzo is dead, without a doubt, even without red truth. But yes, whether by your way or mine, this is a problem: Quote:
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2010-05-02, 15:11 | Link #9712 | |
Mystery buff
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Gone Fishin!
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If you read Dlanor's blue truth though it's clear that Dlanor and Battler's positions have been iconically reversed. Dlanor is using a Devil's proof and requiring that Battler prove something that impossible to prove given the circumstances. She's saying if he doesn't have evidence for Kinzo's death his argument won't be effective and the red doesn't use that kind of argument. Battler defeats her claim with the gold. He defeats her legal requirement to achieve an impossible proof.
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Last edited by Judoh; 2010-05-02 at 15:22. |
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2010-05-02, 16:33 | Link #9713 |
Endless Witch-Doctor
Join Date: Mar 2010
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This is kind of a random thought, but I might as well post it here anyway. If Battler can't prove it objectively, then he must prove it subjectively, right? Didn't Dlanor say that he needed to prove it using a human truth?
This makes me think of the window-jumping scene. Battler proves that Kinzo would be able to jump out of a window flawlessly without hurting himself. It was a human truth, because Battler did something that we almost never see done in Umineko -- physically demonstrate a theory to see if it works or not. Could Kinzo jump out a window? Of course he can, because Battler just jumped out the window two seconds ago! Now, remember the conversation Dlanor, Virgilia, and Battler had immediately after that scene? They talked about the tea being served in two different ways: a human making it, and magic making it. It doesn't matter what the process is, only the result matters. My theory on the gold text is exactly that. In that same chapter it compares the window scene to that statement. Even though Battler cheated and used the rain gutter to safely climb down, he still got down unharmed, proving his theory. Here's my point: What if the reason Battler is able to prove the corpse is Kinzo's is because he physically demonstrates it? For example, what if Battler's existence on the island is due to the fact that Kinzo is dead? I guarantee that this corpse is Ushiromiya Kinzo's corpse...!! Emphasis on the "I". If Battler is present on Rokkenjima, then that must mean that corpse belongs to Kinzo due to reason X. Like I said, a random thought, but it's a different way of looking at it. |
2010-05-02, 17:43 | Link #9714 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Feb 2010
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2010-05-02, 18:29 | Link #9715 |
Endless Turnless
Join Date: Mar 2010
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Yes, that would most certainly fit. However, then there'd would have to be a link between Kinzo's death and Battler's return. What should be looked next if there are any hints that would show that Kinzo's death allows Battler to return............well, there's the possibility that Battler is supposed to become the head, so the whole thing would be about Battler succeeding Kinzo, etc. However, didn't Battler come back to Rokkenjima of his own volition? I guess that won't work....
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2010-05-02, 18:46 | Link #9716 | |
Endless Witch-Doctor
Join Date: Mar 2010
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Spoiler for picture:
Does that count as a hint? |
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2010-05-02, 20:39 | Link #9718 |
Endless Witch-Doctor
Join Date: Mar 2010
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...Oh, that makes sense. But there's still the possibility of Rudolf begging him to come back because of Kinzo's death. What if Rudolf and Kyrie figured out that Kinzo was already dead, making them want to do anything to bring Battler back into the family? Mainly for inheritance reasons, of course.
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2010-05-02, 20:52 | Link #9719 | |
Mystery buff
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Gone Fishin!
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Yes, the suspicions about Kinzo's death could be a reason to beg Battler to come back, but it's not getting us any closer to what his sin is.
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2010-05-02, 21:00 | Link #9720 | |
Endless Witch-Doctor
Join Date: Mar 2010
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In my first theory (Grandpa's funeral) he did know, but for theory #2 he doesn't. I'm going with theory #2 for now.
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