Yuri/Yaoi goggles are OK.

[ahelo]

I posted this because there has been an interesting discussion on Hibike Euphonium about the relationship of certain characters and I want to go further so I'm creating a thread because I want to see some discussion on this.

Personally, it's a new thing for me to actually start accepting yuri/yaoi vision in anime or cartoons. It's always been a rule in the back of my mind (and I'm sure to many people) that no anime/cartoon character is gay unless explicitly portrayed as one or with proof. It's no way because I'm homophobic but because it really just seemed to be a reality. There are anime that deal with LGBTQ issues seriously and with care like Hourou Musuko, Aoi Hana, even Sailor Moon and there are also anime that relegate these types of characters as a joke characters (most traps in LN adaptations for one). But never have I seen a character in mainstream anime that just happened to be gay. That's why I never really particularly bothered and cared for people who have Yuri/Yaoi goggles and pairing anime characters off because I know it was never gonna happen.

Then, The Legend of Korra came and completely broke that notion of the gate (I know Korra is a cartoon and is created in America but I'm trying to make a point haha). I've always read Korra and Asami's relationship as nothing but friendship but that ending really broke that wall I've kept up for a long time. When they were revealed to have been a couple, it just made perfect sense. It didn't come out of nowhere, I just interpreted what was happening to be something different. I never knew the creators would think that way but they did.

So now, whenever I see characters who I think could be gay in anything, I stopped putting that barrier and start acknowledging my interpretations. What if maybe it really was intended in Hyouka that Satoshi wasn't straight? What if Yuu and Mika from Owari no Seraph actually do have a loving relationship and I stop relegating it as "yeah that's shonen-ai they're just doing that to get viewers". In Hibike Euphonium, Kumiko and Reina have witty sexually charged banter and as some people pointed out that when Kumiko gave a bit of a hint that she cares a bit for Shuuichi (the guy), many people were quick to believe it yet many can't seem to grasp giving actual thought that maybe Kumiko's sexuality is fairly fluid and she actually really likes Reina. Maybe most of these things are just marketing stunts (I heard when the big episode in Euphonium aired, Stalker points for the DVD/BDs increased).

Anyway I went on a ramble here but my main point really is, what are your thoughts on having Yuri/Yaoi goggles (well in a more understandable way of putting it meaning accepting interpretations that certain characters may not be straight after all)

[TinyRedLeaf]

Frankly, I find it offensive, in ways I can't adequately describe.

There's an element of fetishism to such views about character relationships that irritates me, but that doesn't fully explain why I don't like such apparently off-tangent interpretations.

The knee-jerk reaction would be to see it as the unwarranted imposition of foreign liberal perspectives on a local culture. But then, I'm aware that the Japanese fans themselves indulge in such fantasies, so who am I to judge?

And of course, there will probably by many who disapprove of my view, and quickly accuse me of homophobia. I would deny that, but I don't think such denials would convince such people.

So, I prefer to keep my peace, for the most part.

I think what irritates me the most of such fetishism is that it smacks of cultural imperialism: "We're okay with homosexuality, and anything that looks like romantic attraction between two people of the same sex must be homosexuality, and we want to celebrate it! How dare you disagree with us? Anyone who thinks otherwise is a horrible troll and can go stew in some place dark and unpleasant."

Coming from a culture where it's quite normal to see grown, heterosexual Indian men hold hands when they go out, because that's what they like to do, I cannot fathom why every such innocent behaviour in anime has to be automatically seen as fujoshi-baiting. It's just a different culture, that's all. Don't read too much into it.

[Fizix]

If it does it without being weird about it, then its fine.

With shipping goggle content... Strictly speaking, if you want to avoid prejudice, then the same standards should be applied to gay/bi characters as you would apply to straight characters. Although if a show has not given any indication that a character may be gay, then it might be a bit out of place.

I've not seen the source material, so no spoilers, but I've been getting the impression that Reina is gay and Kumiko definitely has confused feelings (so is likely gay or bi). In other words, that comes across like it could be a legitimate love interest to me.

[shmaster]

Originally Posted by TinyRedLeaf

I think what irritates me the most of such fetishism is that it smacks of cultural imperialism: "We're okay with homosexuality, and anything that looks like romantic attraction between two people of the same sex must be homosexuality, and we want to celebrate it! How dare you disagree with us? Anyone who thinks otherwise is a horrible troll and can go stew in some place dark and unpleasant."

And you know what. This is exactly what makes us peaceful fujoshi and fudanshi angry. Thinking as if we are a bunch corrupted idiots with no decency who want to jump on to every cute guys we see and hook them together.
Stop labeling as morons who are ship guys just because we can.
Please, PLEASE! Before condemning our homo goggles, please examine yourself whether you are wearing a goggle when looking at us.

[Cosmic Eagle]

Originally Posted by TinyRedLeaf

Frankly, I find it offensive, in ways I can't adequately describe.

There's an element of fetishism to such views about character relationships that irritates me, but that doesn't fully explain why I don't like such apparently off-tangent interpretations.

The knee-jerk reaction would be to see it as the unwarranted imposition of foreign liberal perspectives on a local culture. But then, I'm aware that the Japanese fans themselves indulge in such fantasies, so who am I to judge?

And of course, there will probably by many who disapprove of my view, and quickly accuse me of homophobia. I would deny that, but I don't think such denials would convince such people.

So, I prefer to keep my peace, for the most part.

I think what irritates me the most of such fetishism is that it smacks of cultural imperialism: "We're okay with homosexuality, and anything that looks like romantic attraction between two people of the same sex must be homosexuality, and we want to celebrate it! How dare you disagree with us? Anyone who thinks otherwise is a horrible troll and can go stew in some place dark and unpleasant."

Coming from a culture where it's quite normal to see grown, heterosexual Indian men hold hands when they go out, because that's what they like to do, I cannot fathom why every such innocent behaviour in anime has to be automatically seen as fujoshi-baiting. It's just a different culture, that's all. Don't read too much into it.

Well it's not your opinion, fans are entitled to whatever entertainment they want. Why should you find it so offensive when they are not seducing YOU? Also calling fujos the products of cultural imperialism is really over-stretching it.... You honestly think they are like that because they go around following western pro homo activist propaganda?

Frankly, I don't see the difference between those kinds of shipping war people and those who insist x-character is a bastard/god/better off not existing whatever. If the latter does not annoy you, I don't see why the former should

[Archon_Wing]

To refer to a certain someone from a airing show, I would say I just want something genuine.

I think it's dumb to ship people randomly based on flimsy reasoning and arbitrary subtext, and in general I have extreme disdain against aggressive shippers but sometimes there's the cases where I feel like they can just stop pretending and drop the facade (and depending on the situation, get a room.) or at least have people be open to the possibility to it, even if we disagree. Someones it's really like "Shit, or get off the pot". If you're just putting two guys or two girls together so people can squeeze something in between their legs for a bit, that's fine honestly, but some people may want something more once in a while.

This of course isn't particular to homosexual relationships, but it is somewhat more prone to this kind of stringing along.

[Triple_R]

There are certain gestures and words and physical responses that, to me, imply romance. Or at least possible romance.

If I see such gestures and words and physical responses occurring between two different characters, then I'll probably consider romance a possibility. If I like the possibility its pointing towards - If I think these two characters have good chemistry between them and/or that they show signs of making an appealing/interesting pairing - Then I may choose to support that pairing. I may ship them, in other words.

I like to have a clear "tell" or two before I ship. Ideally two or more. If I feel that all of the interactions between two characters are easily explained by "platonic friendship", or a familial bond, then I'll default to that. But once I see some words or gestures that are honestly easier for me to perceive as romantic than as platonic, I'll usually take it that way.

I try to be evenhanded here, and not be biased on the basis of the genders/sexes involved in the pairings.


On the whole, I don't find that yuri fans or yaoi fans "jump the gun" any more than het shippers do. It often takes very, very little for het shippers to get behind a particular het pairing. So I think that yuri/yaoi fans should probably be given a bit more leeway.

[Eragon]

Originally Posted by TinyRedLeaf

Coming from a culture where it's quite normal to see grown, heterosexual Indian men hold hands when they go out, because that's what they like to do, I cannot fathom why every such innocent behaviour in anime has to be automatically seen as fujoshi-baiting. It's just a different culture, that's all. Don't read too much into it.

I don't know what Indian men you been looking at, but this is complete bullshit.

Although, considering the rest of your post I'm not surprised.

[TinyRedLeaf]

Originally Posted by shmaster

And you know what. This is exactly what makes us peaceful fujoshi and fudanshi angry. Thinking as if we are a bunch corrupted idiots with no decency who want to jump on to every cute guys we see and hook them together.
Stop labeling as morons who are ship guys just because we can.
Please, PLEASE! Before condemning our homo goggles, please examine yourself whether you are wearing a goggle when looking at us.

Originally Posted by Cosmic Eagle

Well it's not your opinion, fans are entitled to whatever entertainment they want. Why should you find it so offensive when they are not seducing YOU?

And I would strongly suggest that neither of you have any need to be defensive about your hobbies, if you aren't ashamed about them in the first place.

It's this form of strident defensiveness that fuels the "disgust" you accuse others of lobbing in your direction.

As I've said: I have no problems with homosexuality being portrayed in anime. I just don't see why there needs to be a big fuss over it in the first place.

First of all, as ahelo explained, in most cases, the characters being "shipped" together aren't homosexual. But the stubborn insistence of some fans to see them as such is what I find inexplicable, if not outright offensive.

And I do believe I have the right to say I'm offended by it. Nowhere did I say you must stop such expression. As I said, who am I to judge? By all means, feel free to continue your hobbies and fantasies, whatever rocks your boat.

What I am saying, emphatically, is that I find such fantasising irritating.

Irritating because it misrepresents the characters. And that, to me, is just as bad as spreading stories about real-life people that just aren't true.

Originally Posted by Eragon

I don't know what Indian men you been looking at, but this is complete bullshit.

You don't have to take my word for it. It happens often enough that other people ask me about it, prompting me to ask Indian friends about such behaviour. I wouldn't even have noticed it otherwise. It's just friendship. That's how it's expressed among some Indian men. There's nothing remarkable about it, other than the potential misunderstanding it may cause among some Singaporeans.

[Cosmic Eagle]

First off, that's not a hobby of mine...I am not a fudanshi


Second, you have every right to be offended of course


But thirdly


Others have a right to say their piece in response as well. It's up to you how far you want to carry it....saying others' hobbies "disgust you in ways you cannot adequately describe" especially in open to their face of course will provoke a response which they are fully entitled to.....Over such a minor matter as well. You see where I'm going?

[TinyRedLeaf]

Originally Posted by Cosmic Eagle

Others have a right to say their piece in response as well. It's up to you how far you want to carry it....saying others' hobbies "disgust you in ways you cannot adequately describe" especially in open to their face of course will provoke a response which they are fully entitled to.....Over such a minor matter as well. You see where I'm going?

Where exactly in my post did I say that their hobbies "disgust" me?

I wrote: "There's an element of fetishism to such views about character relationships that irritates me, but that doesn't fully explain why I don't like such apparently off-tangent interpretations."

And in my second post, I added: "What I am saying, emphatically, is that I find such fantasising irritating. Irritating because it misrepresents the characters. And that, to me, is just as bad as spreading stories about real-life people that just aren't true."

If the characters are homosexual, and fans want to go ga-ga over them, by all means, go ahead.

I just don't see why such a pairing is any more exceptional than any other heterosexual relationship. I don't understand what makes these fans so excited over something that's supposed to be normal, in any case. The fact that people are making a big fuss over it says something else entirely, in my opion: It's a fetish; it's "forbidden" by polite society; and that's why it's so exciting!

And that, in my view, is no less degrading than outright bigotry or sexism.

[Cosmic Eagle]

I'll just ask this here....are you one of them? Do you know what drives them or their interests?

If not, I don't think you are in a position to make assumptions that they do so because they are in some kind of anti-social phase and that excitement from being anti-social is their main driving force

[Pocari_Sweat]

I don't necessarily have a problem with het, yuri or yaoi. However, I do have a problem with het, yuri or yaoi fans congesting threads to make it nearly all about shipping, like the Euphonium thread is at the moment. I swear about 90% of the thread is about who people wanna ship Kumiko with and it also doesn't help that half the series is about intentional yuribaiting. Seems to be a common thread in any anime that has a romance element (major or minor) though.

[TinyRedLeaf]

Originally Posted by Cosmic Eagle

If not, I don't think you are in a position to make assumptions that they do so because they are in some kind of anti-social phase and that excitement from being anti-social is their main driving force

And somehow you're in the position to speak for them, when you claim not to be among their number? I'm sorry, but I call BS on that. Let those who share the fantasy speak for themselves.

Meanwhile, I speak for myself. I find the misrepresentation of characters silly, if not outright offensive. And I find it deeply ironic that I'm apparently not allowed to say that I find it offensive, without being accused of offending other people in return.

If an anti-homosexual bigot screams blue murder about homosexual men, but somehow finds lesbian sex titillating, you can bet your bottom dollar that I will emphatically point out the hypocrisy, and in very impolite terms. I could care less whether the recipient finds my opinion offensive in such a hypothetical case.

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by TinyRedLeaf

As I've said: I have no problems with homosexuality being portrayed in anime. I just don't see why there needs to be a big fuss over it in the first place.

How is it any bigger a fuss than what is made over het pairings?

There's plenty of het pairings that many anime fans are passionate about. In fact, my experience is that anime shipping wars tend to involve competing het pairings much more often than they do yuri pairings or yaoi pairings.

True Tears, Nagi no Asukara, The Melancholy of Haruhi Suzumiya, Aquarion EVOL, Infinite Stratos, Aldnoah.Zero, Knights of Sidonia... all of these, and numerous other anime shows, involve competing het pairings that many anime fans are passionate about. I myself have had preferences in some of them (a strong preference in True Tears' case, as I'm sure Pocari Sweat knows well )

What I am saying, emphatically, is that I find such fantasising irritating.

Irritating because it misrepresents the characters.

What if a character's sexuality or sexual orientation remains ambiguous? Which it is, in some cases. There's no particular reason to think that Kaname Madoka or Akemi Homura are heterosexual, for example.

And really, don't you think anime studios themselves should bear some responsibility here?

The anime industry tends to be very in-touch with the anime fandom. In fact, the line between "creator" and "fan" is often very blurred in the otaku world.

Anime studios know what sort of imagery and content is likely to make anime fans see "romance". So if an anime studio chooses to frame scenes in such romantic-seeming imagery and content, then shouldn't they bear some responsibility for the predictable response that will cause?

To put it another way - Is it really "misrepresenting" when an anime studio continually goes out of its way to make such a "misrepresenting" character interpretation viable and visually appealing?

Originally Posted by TinyRedLeaf

The fact that people are making a big fuss over it says something else entirely, in my opion: It's a fetish; it's "forbidden" by polite society; and that's why it's so exciting!

There's a certain pathos to a romance that struggles against external forces. These external forces can come in the form of major health concerns for one of the characters, or it can come in the form of one of the characters having the option to move to another country to chase after a personal dream. Or, yes, it can come in the form of the romance being "forbidden" in polite society.

I don't see anything degrading about this.

[TinyRedLeaf]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

And really, don't you think anime studios themselves should bear some responsibility here?

The anime industry tends to be very in-touch with the anime fandom. In fact, the line between "creator" and "fan" is often very blurred in the otaku world.

Anime studios know what sort of imagery and content is likely to make anime fans see "romance". So if an anime studio chooses to frame scenes in such romantic-seeming imagery and content, then shouldn't they bear some responsibility for the predictable response that will cause?

To put it another way - Is it really "misrepresenting" when an anime studio continually goes out of its way to make such a "misrepresenting" character interpretation viable and visually appealing?

It's most definitely a form of pandering, not unlike the pandering to moe tastes, which many other fans find disappointing.

The market is what it is. And the industry does whatever it has to do to survive. But I, for one, would very much prefer that producers do not resort to such low-hanging fruit when it comes to portraying homosexuality. Wandering Son is a great example of how the issue of homosexuality can be explored with sympathetic sensitivity. And that promotes understanding of the deep-rooted issues involved.

Instead, we get content that's all about baiting your audiences. And that adds to the problem of discrimination. It adds to popular stereotypes about homosexuality, rather than promoting understanding and acceptance.

And that infuriates me.

It's wishful thinking on my part, perhaps. But as I said before in other discussions, if the anime industry wants anime to be taken seriously, then it shouldn't resort to such tactics. Clearly, though, this isn't an actual concern. So, I say again, the market is what it is, and the industry will do what it has to do to earn its keep.

Originally Posted by Triple_R

How is it any bigger a fuss than what is made over het pairings?

I don't have problems with "shipping" wars. I have a problem with interpretations about characters that aren't true. If the characters aren't homosexual, then they simply aren't.

Look, I haven't read the source material for Hibike. So, for all I know, maybe the characters that sparked this discussion truly are homosexual in the novel, and that's why some fans are so excited about it. All I do know is that, based on what I've seen of the anime so far, it's just a platonic relationship, albeit one that is particularly intense. And I'm not the only one who thinks that way.

But, as pointed out, the thread has since been hijacked by what I regarded all along to be just a minor point. So, again, I'm irritated.

To me, all the fuss is as childish as schoolyard giggling over who is making out with whomever. It's just sex, my dears. It's what grown-ups do. It's nothing to be so excited about. You can do it, too! As long as you're of legal age, and with mutual consent, of course.

Originally Posted by Triple_R

There's a certain pathos to a romance that struggles against external forces. These external forces can come in the form of major health concerns for one of the characters, or it can come in the form of one of the characters having the option to move to another country to chase after a personal dream. Or, yes, it can come in the form of the romance being "forbidden" in polite society.

Which would be fascinating drama, but that's not what Hibike is primarily about. All this obsession over the so-called lesbian subplot has been nothing but a huge distraction. And that's why I find it annoying.

[Cosmic Eagle]

Originally Posted by TinyRedLeaf

And somehow you're in the position to speak for them, when you claim not to be among their number? I'm sorry, but I call BS on that. Let those who share the fantasy speak for themselves.

Meanwhile, I speak for myself. I find the misrepresentation of characters silly, if not outright offensive. And I find it deeply ironic that I'm apparently not allowed to say that I find it offensive, without being accused of offending other people in return.

If an anti-homosexual bigot screams blue murder about homosexual men, but somehow finds lesbian sex titillating, you can bet your bottom dollar that I will emphatically point out the hypocrisy, and in very impolite terms. I could care less whether the recipient finds my opinion offensive in such a hypothetical case.

I'm not speaking for them though.... I'm speaking on your aversion to them. You are being just as hypocritical when you insist on not being branded offensive in return, why should you offend and be immune to being pointed out as such? Is it so bad to be called offensive? I did say you have every right to be disgusted or offend, just be prepared to face a response from others in return



And also, because I know quite a number of them and mix with them quite a lot despite not sharing their same views on pairings? At the very least I can say I understand them better than you...

[TinyRedLeaf]

Well, they can speak for themselves and try to change my mind. That's the last I'll say on this point. And they're also free to agree to disagree with me. We don't have to belong to a hive mind to get along.

I deal with far stronger language thrown in my direction on a daily basis from online critics. If I allow myself to be offended by everything people say, I would have been out of this business long ago. Long story short: If you feel you've been misrepresented, by all means step up and defend yourself. Or, you can choose to ignore it, and move along, like most of us do in real life. It's all about growing thicker skin.

If you're right, and you have good reason to believe you're right, why should you take offence so easily? And that, is the nub of the dispute you apparently have with me.

[Eragon]

Originally Posted by TinyRedLeaf

You don't have to take my word for it. It happens often enough that other people ask me about it, prompting me to ask Indian friends about such behaviour. I wouldn't even have noticed it otherwise. It's just friendship. That's how it's expressed among some Indian men. There's nothing remarkable about it, other than the potential misunderstanding it may cause among some Singaporeans.

I live there. This isn't some common occurrence.

@"Hibike" - Said characters also have not announced that they are straight. You are making assumptions because you can't see past your straight glasses which is exactly what the topic is about. And considering that a good amount of the show has been devoted to those two characters and their interaction I don't see what the hell peoples problem is when someone wants to talk about it. This is a forum, if you haven't noticed, which means you can discuss what you like and if others are interested they will join in too. But, I guess 40 years is too short a time to learn that.

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by TinyRedLeaf

Instead, we get content that's all about baiting your audiences. And that adds to the problem of discrimination. It adds to popular stereotypes about homosexuality, rather than promoting understanding and acceptance.

What popular stereotypes about homosexuality do you think yuri promotes?

I don't have problems with "shipping" wars. I have a problem with interpretations about characters that aren't true. If the characters aren't homosexual, then they simply aren't.

If the anime makes a point to make a character's sexuality unambiguously straight, sure. That often doesn't occur, though. If it doesn't occur, then perceiving a character as homosexual is not necessarily any less true than the alternative.

All I do know is that, based on what I've seen of the anime so far, it's just a platonic relationship, albeit one that is particularly intense. And I'm not the only one who thinks that way.

And some of us, including myself, disagree with you. The Hibike relationship that we're talking about seems more romantic than platonic to me. I honestly find it very hard to perceive as purely platonic, given how the anime has chosen to frame it. It involves physical contact that's quite excessive for a purely platonic relationship, especially one that's just getting started, in my opinion.

That is my honest and sincere interpretation of it, going by my own sense of what seems platonic, and what seems romantic.

Now, do you really find it hard to understand why someone would interpret this the way I do? Do you find it hard to understand why someone would see more than a purely platonic relationship here?

But, as pointed out, the thread has since been hijacked by what I regarded all along to be just a minor point.

The relationship we're talking about involves the two most important characters int the entire show. So I don't consider this a minor point. For good or for ill, KyoAni has clearly chosen to make this particular relationship the very core of the narrative. So of course many viewers are going to talk about it, and discuss it, and offer conflicting interpretations of it.

Plus, you can clearly tell that KyoAni is putting added effort into certain "highlight scenes" in this major relationship. They have done everything they can to make it look as visually stunning and appealing as possible. I think its expecting an awful lot of people to expect them to just ignore the 800 lb bright neon-colored elephant that KyoAni has chosen to put into the room.