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View Poll Results: Madoka Magica - Favourite Character(s) Poll | |||
Kaname Madoka | 131 | 41.85% | |
Akemi Homura | 211 | 67.41% | |
Miki Sayaka | 89 | 28.43% | |
Tomoe Mami | 102 | 32.59% | |
Sakura Kyoko | 132 | 42.17% | |
Kyubei | 80 | 25.56% | |
Shizuki Hitomi | 7 | 2.24% | |
Kamijou Kyousuke | 5 | 1.60% | |
Kaname Junko | 38 | 12.14% | |
Kaname Tomohisa | 6 | 1.92% | |
Kaname Tatsuya | 17 | 5.43% | |
Saotome Kazuko | 6 | 1.92% | |
Other | 7 | 2.24% | |
Multiple Choice Poll. Voters: 313. You may not vote on this poll |
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2011-05-17, 05:36 | Link #102 |
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My votes went to:
Homura Akemi Do I need a reason? A strong willed fighter determined to save her best friend from a tragic fate! That reminds me of another certain anime girl... With that aside, there's no way Homerun wouldn't get my vote! Sayaki Miki Why does she have so little votes for one of the main characters? She's not that popular, huh... Ironic that she's my favorite character, too. She's free spirited and fun, but also has a heart of a young girl in love. If only this anime was a bit longer, we could have seen a bit more to Sayaka's character than a girl in love with Kyosuke, and well, what happened afterwards too, of course... Her downfall was heartbreaking! I love Sayaka! Kyoko Sakura Scratch that. Kyoko and Sayaka are equally awesome in my perspective. I love how hot blooded she is, and her love of food. o u o; Kyubei If you do consider him a villain, he's one of the best villains known to anime. Ever. Cute and creepy! Kyosuke Kamijo Why did I vote for him again? He was a jerk to Sayaka... But, I suppose his previous and seemingly kind attitude he had in the first couple episodes just stuck with me til the end. I actually think he's adorable. Tatsuya Kaname Well, background characters need votes too. Plus, just look at him! Adorable! Adorable! I should have voted for Mami, but I thought that it'd seem odd to vote for all of the Puella Magi except the main character, right? Madoka... didn't interest me. |
2011-05-17, 06:12 | Link #103 | |
Twilight lander
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Two votes for Kamijou already... Let Sayaka's smile from above be your reward, guys.
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In Madoka's case, we may debate about her kind-heartedness and will to help others, and complain about the lack of motivation for that as long as we wish. But her self-sacrificing traits don't seem innate, if you come to think of it. They are partly based upon her original personality (which becomes part of motivation itself here) plus the events she undergoes - the acquisition of magical powers , feeling like a hero that IS useful to the world, losing her friends in battle, finding out the truth behind the system... In timeline 5, Madoka clearly wasn't self-sacrificiing from the start, and that's presumably why she apologises tearfully to Mami in episode 4 (she's too shocked and scared to become a magical girl, even knowing that her wish might be able to bring Mami back). Then, as her best friend becomes involved and squashed under the pressure of the system, she becomes desperate to help her. And by the episode 12, having learnt enough the HARD way and realising that people around her are in danger and the girl who have been trying to protect her is going to perish inevitably... That pretty much does it. There were many talks about the reasons behind Madoka's self-denial, but it seems to me it's not in her character - that's in the CHANGE she undergoes due to the events of the show. And original personalities... good luck guessing the motivation behind them. Why is Madoka so sweet? Why is Sayaka so energetic yet shy around the guy she likes (such combo is common, but NOT obligatory)? Why is Kamijou so oblivious? And so on and so forth. |
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2011-05-17, 10:41 | Link #104 | ||
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So, as you see, you can only understand the change/action of a character, if you understand the character before that change, and for that, you need to know what makes the character tick. I understand Homura (because of her illness) and I understand Kyoko (being the kid of a priest) but there's no way I can understand Sayaka (why so self-righteous?) or even less Madoka (why did she want to help people to that extant, way beyond a normal desire to be helpful??)
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2011-05-17, 11:52 | Link #105 | ||
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Likewise, some people want to help others just for the sake of helping others. There's nothing in particular that they hope to gain from that, other than, perhaps, the satisfaction of knowing that they helped other people. Madoka is such a person, I think. But if you really need a reason for why Madoka wants to help others, I would say it's partly because she feels uniquely fortunate to have the family and friends and life that she has, and hence feels that to be deserving of such a charmed existence she needs to give back to the world around her. The irony here is that by acting on this motivation, the nature of Madoka's own existence is changed irrevocably. Sayaka, I think, was motivated in a similar way (Sayaka implied that herself with her own words), except that romantic longing caused her feelings to focus much more on one particular person: Kamijou. Quote:
Sayaka is actually pretty normal, in my view. Especially for a teenage girl. She has a fairly typical streak of youthful idealism, hardly anything out of the ordinary. I think where some viewers misjudge Sayaka is in evaluating her actions through the prism of our 3rd person omniscient perspective, along with us being fairly genre savvy and knowing who the writer of Madoka Magica is. But Sayaka has none of that of course. To properly evaluate Sayaka and her actions, you have to keep in mind how other characters and plot events come across to her, and of the limitations in knowledge that she has to work with. So when a new transfer student shows up at Madoka's school, puts up an impeccable cold front, and asks Madoka some rather "out there" questions about whether or not Madoka loves the people she cares about, Sayaka naturally is quite disturbed by this when she sees it and/or hears about it. Wouldn't you be disturbed and weirded out if your best friend was approached by a complete stranger asking her if she cares about her loved ones or not? While Homura's actions are quite understandable given her situation, it's also quite understandable how and why Sayaka could develop a generally negative view of Homura. Then, later on, Homura tries to kill a strange and seemingly defenseless/harmless creature (Kyubey). Homura then later refuses Mami's olive branch offering of a grief seed gift, free of charge. In both of these cases, I can see why Homura made the decisions that she did, but that doesn't impact on how Sayaka views it. Sayaka naturally comes to view Homura as a weird, powerful, and dangerous delinquent. Sayaka is incorrect in that assessment, of course, but can you really blame her for thinking that? I certainly can't. On the other end of things, Sayaka and Madoka are rescued by the gallant, stylish, and charming Mami. Oh, and the cool, calm, and collected Mami too (going by outward appearances). Why wouldn't Sayaka take a strong liking towards Mami? Why wouldn't Madoka, for that matter? Then Sayaka and Madoka find out that these bizarre super-powered beings called "witches" are causing serious problems, up to and including causing people to attempt suicide. Well, I can certainly understand a person wanting to shy away from these dangerous opponents, but at the same time it's not hard to see why somebody would want to put a stop to them either. If nothing else, Sayaka and Madoka would understandably want to ensure that their families and friends can't be victimized by these witches. Through all of this, Mami seems trustworthy enough, and Kyubey isn't doing or saying much to give away his true motivations. Oh, sure, we viewers have reason to suspect Kyubey because we know this is a Gen Urobuchi-wrote story, but Sayaka and Madoka don't know that. Putting aside cynicism (which, it's important to remember, tends to come with age), there's not much reason for Sayaka or Madoka to think that Mami and Kyubey are anything but on "the up and up". And heck, they were right about Mami at least. Later on Sayaka runs into Kyouko, and Kyouko rather forcefully states that familiars should be allowed to roam free to become witches. Well, such an approach will lead to more innocent people being victimized, at least in the short term. Sayaka is quite correct in bringing that up. Is it really that hard to see why Sayaka wouldn't want to let innocent people be victimized when a few sword slashes on her part can prevent it? I don't think you need to be "self-righteous" to feel that way, or to take exception to a person arguing that it's Ok to just throw innocent lives away for pragmatic purposes. I mean, weren't most people here arguing against such "ends justify the means" logic when arguing at length against Kyubey, even before the "magical girls become witches" reveal was made? Now that's not to say that Kyouko's cynicism wasn't understandable given what we later find out about her background, but nor is Sayaka's idealism something that should be hard to understand and find reasonable given the circumstances. Not in every conflict is one person "right" and the other person "wrong". In many conflicts, both sides have understandable reasons for taking the position that they're taking, and it's simply a matter of different backgrounds and/or different degrees of knowledge helping to shape different perspectives. In fact, one of the understated strengths of Madoka Magica is how raw, real, and ambiguous many of its moral and philosophical conflicts are. The disagreements between Sayaka and Homura, Sayaka and Kyouko, and Sayaka and Madoka, all seem reasonable and even realistic to me. In all cases, I see where both sides are coming from, and I see where both sides have good arguments that can be made. Sayaka is simply a pretty normal girl with fairly conventional moral values (thrown into a world that's anything but conventional, unfortunately for her ). Did she make many mistakes? Sure, but a lot of that has to do with Sayaka not having all the facts to work with, or even knowing where to go to find those facts.
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2011-05-17, 12:52 | Link #106 | |||
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For instance, the most interesting American superheroes have clear and proper motivations: Spider-man has his guilt over the death of his uncle, Batman the death of his father, etc. The superheroes without proper motivations come from weaker narratives, and even then, new movies or tv series will come out to give those characters more depth (aka, better and more clear motivations behind their actions), the Smallville series comes to mind. Quote:
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So what about Sayaka. Do we even know her parents? No. And her friends are just normal school friends, nothing more. So, why are her ideals as strong, if not stronger than Kyoko's? We don't know, and since we don't know, we have to think, we have to assume, and that defeats the purpose. Analyzing actions and ideals of a character to discern the motivations behind those actions is an oxymoron, since the motivations are supposed to be there to explain those actions and ideals in the first place.
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2011-05-17, 12:55 | Link #107 |
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The whole problem with Sayaka is that pride was bitting her in the ass. If she were to accept the soul gem from Kyouko and Homura, she would still live.
She had dug her own grave with her own foolishness and pridefulness. Even though her crazy moments were cool, I can't really sympafize with her.
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2011-05-17, 15:26 | Link #108 | |
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I think that Homura threatens to kill Sayaka in order to confront precisely this suicidal drive. Homura is basically forcing Sayaka to ask herself "Do I really want to die?" Sayaka's rapidly worsening situation (and Hitomi's discussion with her about Kamijou in particular) basically drove her to a point where she wanted to die.
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2011-05-17, 16:47 | Link #109 | |||||||
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the other instances of helping others, don't involve the cost of madoka's (normal human) life at all. then, when she did become a pm (and in the capacity of being a pm helping others) in all timelines except the last one, those just involve taking risks. taking risks is different from doing things at the cost of one's life. there are high and low risks. and at worst, high risks involve the possibility of death too. in any case, by risking alone, one can still go unscatched, if you do better and be careful. safe. but at "the cost of one's life" it is terminal. you are exchanging something wholly and completely for something else in a single proceeding. and there is only one end here, and that is death, no more exit. i'm saying this because the situation when madoka became a pm in ep 12 is entirely different from the rest when she became a pm or at least, she attempted to. in ep 12, madoka knew the 'full rewards/consequences' of her action. and she bet her life on it. she exchanged her life for a single wish. her other attempts of becoming a pm, don't involve at the cost of her life, at least she's not aware of it. there are risks. true. it will be dangerous, not going to be easy, and no time for parties and boyfriends. now, you might ask then, why is she willing to take some risks to help others (by becoming a magical girl). look closely at madoka's face before she's about to make the contracts saving saya twice. look at her facial expressions. true, she is being helpful, but look also at the situation she/they is/are in. saya is fighting for her dear life in a losing battle with kyouko. during this time they are still unaware that body damages are repairable as long as the sg is intact. qb offers a chance to save her closest friend. no other explanation. only a fellow pm can intervene. how about the second one. saya is emotionally breaking apart. saya considers herself a zombie. saya is saying mean things to her best friend. saya tells madoka to become a pm since she wants to help. saya is fighting without regard to her (sg) health. qb offers a solution - through a contract, magic. now with these two instances, we could see clearly that madoka is deeply in trouble or troubled. maybe not really personally. but chaos and hardship/suffering before her can be stopped. no other available means are presented to solve the problems but only through a contract. through magical means. something beyond normal human intervention. look again at her face. is she that all too willingly? with all the 'unrealistic strong desire' to help others? is that the resolute and smiling face she made in ep 12? uhmmm, one wonders. but it is more like there is no other way. it is more like she's compelled to force a decision and you could see she's in the verge of tears. she's helpful true, but that can be easily superseded by the fact of fear that her best friend is about to be impaled with a spear before her very eyes or whatever gruesome thing might happen. how about the drama cd. the situation here is much weaker than saving saya. madoka did become a pm. but we are only told of this through her narrative. when she saved the cat, was she aware that becoming a pm and fighting witches involve death and you will turn into one yourself in time? knowing qb, probably he did not explain. so we can only speculate that she's even willing to take risks here. how about her ominous warning to homu-chan that something might happen to her? we don't know when she learned the fact that a pm could die in battle. before or after saving amy? before or after meeting mami? we could only speculate. i doubt she even saw a dead or dying pm before. by knowing tidbits of truth, madoka reconsiders making a contract, hence the delay. they greatly affect her. she will only make one if there is nothing else left to do. this is not only about being kind but the situation she's engage in. Quote:
you mentioned sacrifice. she sacrificed her life here by becoming a pm. her will to make a sacrifice is exclusively for this instant, not always. the others just involve risks. she did not trade anything anywhere as much as her own life just like in ep 12. Quote:
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Spoiler for slightly OT:
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inferiority complex is a strong, specific, and technical term. there are books in psychology and in behavioral sciences about it. * a quick check @ wikipedia * since you use it, i guess you know more than i do or what a brief online definition could offer. so how exactly is inferiority complex different from normal feeling of inferiority? when one whines a lot about being unhelpful, compares oneself to the ability of others, being troublesome to others, when one questions oneself, when one desires to do more than one is originally capable of doing, when one attends classes and yet still having difficulties, does that make one automatically suffer inferiority complex? madoka is a teenage girl. she is in the process of discovering herself, her strengths, her weaknesses. there are also bodily/physical/hormonal changes that make this 'awakening' possible. it's normal to see someone greater than you or compare yourself with others at this stage. so a feeling of simple guilt or insecurity translates to inferiority complex? you might say that madoka said 'i felt that way too for the longest time' - referring to homu-chan's line of being useless and just there to exist. but how much madoka really know about homu at that time? they just met. it's more like madoka's trying to sympathize and cheer up homu. of course, madoka may also not be lying, but is the degree/extent of homu's difficulties equal to that of madoka's? madoka might be acting in good will and faith, but they are not exactly in the same footing. so as far as jumping to conclusion is concerned, madoka suffering/displaying signs of inferiority complex is a mere speculation. of course, i might be wrong. but as long as using the 12-ep tv series and the 30-min drama cd as evidence, nothing of them supports that madoka is suffering/displaying signs of inferiority complex indeed. i refuse to believe madoka has inferiority complex (for the lack of evidence) just like how some in this forum strongly refuses to acknowledge madoka attained/achieved goddesshood. however, the latter one is for another discussion. Quote:
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2011-05-17, 17:35 | Link #110 | |
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For the rest of your post, let's just agree to disagree. I can't help being a bit overly-critical (maybe a bit too much!!), I can't just switch off what I know. And I do understand some things that really concerns me about the series are probably just fine to most viewers, and that's totally ok. So let's leave it at that. Besides, I really did like the show... or maybe I just liked Homura a lot . I don't know, but anyway....
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2011-05-17, 18:17 | Link #111 | |||
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mado wants to connect to homu. they have common grounds already like amy for example. but she wants to take steps even closer. and mami even approves and advises not to use magic about it. Quote:
again, they just met. how much information does mado really knew about homu? her difficulties? her reasons to be hospitalized? did mado completely understand the whole being/personality/history of homu on the single event they walk and chat together after school. she's speaking with the intent to cheer and to connect. mado is not speaking with full understanding of homu's case. there might be similarities of course, but they are not the same. and this is the catch, does mado even considers homu to have inferiority complex? and with full awareness of what it truly means, she tags herself too? inferiority complex here is mere pure speculation. Quote:
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2011-05-17, 18:28 | Link #112 |
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We can't help but to speculate because it was never clearly explained. Even if Madoka's feelings of inadequacy weren't enough to be considered inferiority complex, they came out so often in the tv series (and are even mentioned in the drama cd), that we really should had been clearly told where those feelings were coming from.
We discussed a lot about this with Triple_R and others before, speculating about all the possible reasons Madoka felt so inadequate about herself even though she was a healthy, normal kid. At that time it was cool speculating about it, because the series was still running, and so the explanation was surely going to come..... except it didn't. And so we are still speculating, and we shouldn't need to!!
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2011-05-17, 21:19 | Link #113 | |
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And even so suicides were never approved by me so her actions are still wrong.
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2011-05-17, 21:34 | Link #114 |
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I can't tell if this is going off-topic or not anyway to the top 3 for me
1: Homura: Cold and Heartless but with a deep passion to save Madoka from her fate scored first. 2: Madoka: Going along with others that she was sorta useless at the beginning, but also thought she would make a comeback eventually (previously thought it was going to be in episode 8) but yeah Madoka! 3: Kyoko: She really struck me when she risked her life to save Sayaka.
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2011-05-17, 21:52 | Link #115 | |
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Jokes aside (but only sort of), seriously, I'm starting to lose sight of why people have so little love for Sayaka. Really, why? Maybe I just look at her differently than you do, but I can't think of a single thing to truly condemn her for. As far as I can tell she's nothing more than a perfectly fine character that got hit psychologically one too many times; that's not really her fault, though, so I fail to see how that might affect somebody's perception of her. And on your previous point of her surviving had she accepted Homura's Grief Seed, I doubt it. Episode 11 showed just how easily the Soul Gem can become tainted by grief; with Sayaka in the state she was in, her Soul Gem would probably be just as dark again in a day or two. Grief Seed or no, she was on a downward spiral that wasn't likely to change. |
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2011-05-18, 07:40 | Link #117 |
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Eh?! Useless Madoka won? Why everyone are so easily bought by cutely looks in Japan T_T
I also think that Homura should have been somewhere there, beside she also looked cute in original life time. Akashin I don't really hate her, she has her pluses but over all she seriously failed! Even if it was just for 2 days, that's still some time that could have been used somehow, could give time to her friends to figure something out. And she instantly gave up on her love just because Hitomi said she will confess... and Hitomi was kind enough to warn her and give time for Sayaka to confess first! Did she make use out of it? NO! She instantly decided that she lost so it is good to go insane and die. I'm sure that if she was of legal age or something, she would also get drunk first -_- That's simply lame. I also might not attemp some things but I'm not going insane because of that later.
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2011-05-18, 07:58 | Link #118 | |||
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Now, wanting to be helpful is one thing, but if you're an average girl with no special talents, not enrolling into any clubs (and having Hitomi's image to remind you that you ought to - after all, it's another thing that Japanese schools try to advertise among students) and the most you can do around is take people to the nurse's office... Might make you wonder if the desire to be helpful really matches your potential at all. While I can't say Madoka is desperately looking for a purpose in life (neither was Nanoha, at least before the movie manga retconned her character, and certainly niether was Sakura who seemed to have quite a satisfying life of a teenage girl), but she does express some melancholy about whether she might just live her life away and die. Her self-esteem is not too low, but it's something many people her age come to wonder, if occasionally (and Madoka doesn't seem to be bothered by it ALL THE TIME). Then, an opportunity rises. There are actually horrible creatures around, threatening people (and there's no guarantee that one of your friends/relatives won't get hit someday - which is proven quite bluntly in episode 4 with Hitomi). Heck, Madoka herself could fall prey to a witch, along with her friend, if not for... MAMI-SAN! There are girls who fight witches and thereby REDEFINE helpful in Madoka's eyes. They do it elegantly and magnificently (check out Madoka's expression when she watches Mami fighting). And here's the juicy part: you, an average girl brought up well and wanting to be helpful to people around but not seeing any prospects in that field, suddenly learn that you can become a Puella Magi! As cool and helpful as Mami-san and presumably just as strong at the very least, if Kyuubey's estimation is true. The ending of episode 2 pretty much nails it down: an innocent, apparently nice office lady (who most likely has someone to grieve over her death) nearly commits suicide she had never even cosidered before, and then she's saved by magic, and here she is, sobbing into Mami's shoulder... You can do the same to people, save their lives - all for free and with a thrown-in bonus of a wish granted magically to you. Who wouldn't AT LEAST CONSIDER this prospect, regardless of upbringing and personality? And for Madoka, it sure looks like a win-win situation. If she wasn't at a loss about a wish, she'd probably become a Puella Magi right way - as she did in previous timelines. Save the poor cute cat whom nothing else will save anyway and proceed to save people whom, likewise, nobody but the likes of you would sufficiently protect from witches - sure, why not? And in TL4, preventing destruction, grief and your classmate getting killed before your eyes, when nothing else is stated to do that and you can do it? COUNT ME IN ALREADY! So, to summarize. - initially Madoka is what Junko describes her as - a good and kind girl. Her wish to be helpful is moderate, partly restrained by her lack of belief in her abilities (otherwise, she'd have been a triple scout already ) and not too uncommon for a person who apparently was brought up with such an wish to keep in mind. - her wish to be a hero directly derives from the seeming opportunity to become one with a flash spark. The wish to help people suddenly gets a definite prospect sketched out - and it's more than Madoka has EVER hoped to be able to do. You won't be able to explain her eagerness to fight witches unless you consider HOW she views the system at the time (and in timeline 1 she herself becomes a poster child for it together with Mami, in Homura's eyes). - her self-denial and self-sacrificing, while they MAY be based on her personality and the first two points above, do NOT look like her innate traits to me. If anything, Madoka knows well what Junko voiced in ep 11: her life does not belong to her alone, and her family will be in great pain. That's partly why she turns down Kyuubey's offer in ep 4 after witnessing and painfully realizing the old "Anyone Can Die" trope. Up to this point, there is no self-denying Madoka. However, if this girl has a heart big enough to sympathize with other people and want to help them, what to expect when people dear to her start getting involved deeply? When Hitomi's endangered, she does her best to save her. When Sayaka contracts, she insists on tagging along because she can't leave her friend alone in situations she has seen to end tragically. And tagging along as a helpless spectator makes her consider contracting again, more and more. She's hit again with the episode 6 revelation, but then it's seeing Sayaka suffering that makes her as desperate as to put her own soul on the line - because Sayaka is not even some abstract "people to help", she's her dear friend whose life is being ruined rapidly... and Kyuubey keeps hinting Madoka could change it. As I see it, THIS is where the Madoka we've seen at the beginning of episode 12 comes from. Her self-denial and sacrifice does not lie in her character that needs backstory motivation - it's her character development that starts from ability to sympathize with others and a simple wish to be helpful (not necessarily to a Spiderman extent and not necessarily bordering on inferiority complex), then goes along the line of the events Madoka experiences. Quote:
And I think Homura knew this. But she tried to postpone Sayaka's fall at least, because she desperately needed to do something about the situation before it led to Madoka's contracting. Personally, I love Sayaka and I felt like my heart was being slowly driven over by a paver while watching her arc. She deserves a better fate - yet the most she can get now is being aware of changing Kyousuke's life for the better and maybe finally hitting it off with Kyouko after she joins her in Madoka's domain. Rest in peace, our genki knight. Quote:
Last edited by Snork; 2011-05-18 at 08:11. |
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2011-05-18, 13:18 | Link #119 | |
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2011-05-18, 13:25 | Link #120 | |
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