Fate/stay night Game discussion (Warning: Spoilers)

[kakakka]

Originally Posted by 17th_warrior

How can I solo Saber like that? What choice and where?

Spoiler for VS Saber:

He never soloed Saber during Limit Burst. If you want then you have to make Rider not cooperate with you during the last night. When she asked you a question, talk about not saving Sakura, then she'll leave. After that, you'll fight Saber alone. Then "END"

[Aqua Knight]

The end will be bad,right?

[kakakka]

Taiga said "not really". It's Shiro's "Fate End" in Heaven's Feel.

[calorie]

Originally Posted by kakakka

Taiga said "not really". It's Shiro's "Fate End" in Heaven's Feel.

Also, the screen after the fight is over has "End" written in the center as opposed to "Dead End" or "Bad End" in the lower right. But this doesn't count in the ED list.

[kakakka]

One thing's for sure is that, you'll get a chance to get a Tiger Stamp if you do this "ending"

[Aqua Knight]

Whoa, I did it. So that's where Archers words from the anime came. I mean something that "divides water" etc. etc.
Pretty cool actually.
Also a question:
Technically Sakura had worm in her, so by conditions mentioned in HF she should have died a lot or not?

[willyvereb]

No. Zouken didn't took action in Fate or UBW because the conditions were bad. It also means Sakura remained in her miserable status in Fate surely. The very least until El-Mellioi II shuts down the Grail thus ruins Zouken's plans forever.
In UBW Shinji may killed Zouken with the help of Gilgamesh and he becomes much kinder than we know him from the VN(actually he reverts back to his usual self from 3 years ago). And well, we all know what happens in HF.
Another intertesting point. Shirou's death in any bad ends mostly means the activisation of Zouken's plan and eventually sakura's(and probably everyone's) death. Because the grief of losing Shirou causes a gap on her "mental barrier" huge enough for Zouken to make her his obidient Puppet.
So actually the bad ends are REALLY bad ends.

[calorie]

And does anyone know why exactly doesn't Zouken initiate his plan in the first two routes? The only difference between the three storylines, what triggers Heavens Feel, is Shirou meeting him in front of Matou manor. Was that really such a big deal?

[willyvereb]

Well, It's because the meeting with Shirou and the situation made him realise his feelings for Sakura(and his non-existent connection with the Eisebens, but it doesn't matter). He had a feeling Sakura may loves Shirou, but after that it became sure for him. Zouken was a extremely talented mage and thus quite intelligent(even in his degraded state and being insane). He waited for a little gap like this. He needed someone close to Sakura. He had Shinji, but it wasn't enough he needed someone, preferably a love interest who makes her mind focused on other things and gives her desires. Righ,. Sakura achieved being without any kind of hope or desire. That's why she was so immune to the influence of Angra Maryou. Evil equals the cruel part of selfishness, but Sakura lacked almost any kind of selfishness. That's why Zouken set things up to make sakura stay at the Emiyas.I don't know if he could instantly predict the appearance of "rivals"(saber and most of all Rin), but it certainly helped his motives. In Fate and UBW Zouken has no chance to notice Sakura's feelings because she was so adept at hiding them.
Well, something like that.
I have another much more simple explanation. Zouken was more daring in HF and made his move. Because every route of FSN is a paralell world, everything could happen otherwise. In short not only the protagonist could make different choices, thus alternating the flow of the story, but other characters too. Being obviously more in love with sakura moved the Wheels of Fate otherwise.
There's no such a thing as coincidence. Just bunch of almost unimportant happenings that slightly but surely affects things happening. They're cumulating and making big happenings. They're the part we can't calculate at all.

[calorie]

Hmm, well, I think I understood what you meant by Zouken realizing how prepared Sakura was for the big transformation. But even if that wasn't so, would he really let a grail war slip through his hands (Fate, UBW), even though it was mentioned by the narrator how he is having tons of trouble maintaining his body already?

And the second part of your post is a theory I have contemplated as well. Which made me realize how flawed the concept of parallel universes in F/SN (and in many other works of fiction) is.

Let's see: there are two possible versions of parallel universes. One where the matter (people, objects etc.) and the actions (pertaining to humans, animals, weather, everything) are identical. And another, where they aren't. Fate/stay night seems to abide by the first rule, though somewhat freely. Sometimes things happen, sometimes they don't - and yet, every person and event is strikingly similar, as if those universes were created when the story began. Wouldn't it be unlikely that in an infinite number of parallel universes things happen exactly the same just until the beginning of that fifth Holy Grail War; the way I see it actually, chances are it everything would be completely different as there is also an infinite number of factors for just about every atom in each universe so there would be practically zero chance of the universes being completely in tune as they are.

It's just that it's hard for me to imagine a rational explanation for a confusing issue in the story that includes parallel universes when the whole concept seems impossible.

[willyvereb]

I have one.
It's the "meeting point" of the paralell universes. You can't reach a paralell universe easily if you haven't got a proper connection to it. It's like summoning a servant somehow.
The beginning is identical from Shirou's eyes and that's what connect things. We see(almost) everything through Shirou's viewpoint. It means the "connection" must be the similarity of Shirou's viewpoint.
For example I can't imagine Archer being in a paralell universe where Emiya Shirou will never exist or was never existed. It's because he didn't have a connection to that world. He wasn't a hero or anything in that world. That's why we never see heroes existed as heroes only in a paralell universe in the Holy Grail War.

I hope I made my point understandable. It's much harder to reach a paralell universe that much different than our world(like a world where humanity is non-existent or even hasn't even born).Even if a technique may allow us to travell equally freely our imagination would restrict us from doing so.

[calorie]

So basically we choose to look only those universes that interest us. There is an infinite amount, and though the chance of finding the one that is almost freakin' identical is infinitely small, in the aforesaid infinity that becomes plausible. Hah.

Of course, this is only fiction, not quantum physics. Visual novels are supposed to be fun and with multiple choices. This one chose to tamper with the issue of time-travel and parallel universes but hasn't exactly explained some things, while others, such as how servants can travel back and forth in time, are more thoroughly explained.

[willyvereb]

Right. But there's another explanation that makes FSN's paralell words less free and more like the classical VN's. It's if we take the assumtion actions of the protagonist not only affects the future but the past too. I mean actions of the protagonist can be confirmations of previous unexplained happenings. Like if Shirou focuses more on sakura from the beginning it means he loves her more from the beginning. I explained my beleif about "coincidence". So if little or seemingly unrelated things can affect happenings then Shirou being in love with sakura reflects on Sakura's action too and it even affects Zouken for example. It makes him alter his decision and take action. Things must happening in a more difficult way but this is the simplified explanation of it. It means still the protagonist's decisions decide everything.
And about Zouken's lifespan. I doubt he's dying in Fate or UBW. He's dying because:
-He "reincarnated" too many times and the quality of his soul degraded. This is what most of us believe as the sole reason for his frequent switch of bodies,but I think it shouldn't be suddenly as drastical.
-Him replecing his main body with a smaller one placed next to sakura's heart. He did in the middle of the story. I think being far from the main body and the main body being weaker actually a really serious problem for mantaining his body. I think this is the main reason.
-The filling of the grail. Sakura as a false grail being filled with Heroic Spirits probably could have an effect on Zouken as his main body resides in Sakura's body. Not to mention Zouken's worms could contain pieces of the previous Grail.

In short I doubt at Fate or at UBW Zouken was in that critical state. Otherwise he should've done something before he dies.

[Aqua Knight]

Pity there's no patch make FSN completely into Realta Nua. There's one that adds some CG but not all. Because this picture makes me wanna play it.

Spoiler for this:

Also why did Shirou have and ero-dream about Tohsaka in HF?

[calorie]

Originally Posted by 17th_warrior

Also why did Shirou have and ero-dream about Tohsaka in HF?

Cause she's bloody hot.

[Aqua Knight]

She is,but seriously, why? Just because he liked her a lot before he realized his feelings for Sakura?

[calorie]

Originally Posted by 17th_warrior

She is,but seriously, why? Just because he liked her a lot before he realized his feelings for Sakura?

I don't think there is any special reason why he had a wet dream in Heavens Feel route and not in the other two - probably to create a change of atmosphere and make this path more exciting (simply adding more battles and conflicts probably wouldn't cut it as the viewer/player has seen much of that already by the time HF is unlocked). After all, there were tons of other sexual content such as Sakura's condition, the worms...especially compared to UBW where there was very little.

[willyvereb]

No. It wasn't a simple wet dream. If so then Shirou could have extremely good imagination if he recreates the feeling and everything in his head despite being an innocent virgin.
Actually Rider "recharged herself" at night without Shirou knowing it. Maybe even the dream was created by Rider to keep Shirou sleeping while she's "working".
It's somehow obvious from the dream-Rin's rectangular strange pupils(like Rider's).
Anyways I have the full Realta Nua CG set, but I don't know it's allowed to post them.
(anyways you find them on RapidShare for example)
Anyways it bothered me that HF hardly has any new CG-s in Realta Nua compared to Fate and UBW.

P.S.: The picture you posted 17th Warrior is from Realta Nua's UBW. More properly it's the replacement of the H-scene there.

[Aqua Knight]

Wow, thanks. I also thought that Rin had strange pupils.
I now also have full Realta Nua CG set and did you see the Rin-some-other-girl pic that is very seducing. Um, the girl was archery club captain.
What does that supposed to mean? And also instead of sex to recharge in Nua blood is sucked.

[calorie]

Originally Posted by willyvereb

No. It wasn't a simple wet dream. If so then Shirou could have extremely good imagination if he recreates the feeling and everything in his head despite being an innocent virgin.
Actually Rider "recharged herself" at night without Shirou knowing it. Maybe even the dream was created by Rider to keep Shirou sleeping while she's "working".
It's somehow obvious from the dream-Rin's rectangular strange pupils(like Rider's).

Wow!!! Are you sure about that, I hadn't the faintest idea that was it?

Shirou is one lucky bastard.