Utawarerumono: Itsuwari no Kamen - Episode 20 Discussion / Poll

[thundrakkon]

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Originally Posted by Iron Maw

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FlareKnight stated things much better than I could, so I won't go too much into detail on that.

The problem with your whole argument is that the path that has the least amount of damage equates to the destruction of Tuskuru. Yamato invaders have orders to invade and conquer. That means the death of Kuon's people. Vurai can possibly make it worse or not (Tuskuru has a lot of winged magical fighters and, if necessary, Kamyu can become Mutsumi and blast Vurai to dust), but in the end, she is choosing a path to limit the death of the people invading her country while creating a path of a lot more death to her people. That is just unforgivable. Remember, she is the princess and most likely the rightful heir to Tuskuru.

[erneiz_hyde]

Originally Posted by tsunade666

Can someone send me a pm or link of the gameplay for tuskuru invasion or the current part in the game? i didn't understand the immortal thing. Here in this episode, Kurou said that he pledge his soul to Hakuoro. When did that happen? did that happen in the last part where they are sealing him? but I don't remember that happening or them turning into immortal. I only remember it as a painful farewell with each members talking to him.

I don't understand what's happening and I also want to see the game version. Don't worry about understanding japanese. I can't read it but I can understand it.

Welp, My bad

He isn't literally "Immortal". Just that he just doesn't seem to stay dead even when they keep pounding at him. Think Luca Blight.

[Iron Maw]

Originally Posted by thundrakkon

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Originally Posted by Iron Maw

Sorry; dynamic content not loaded. Reload?

FlareKnight stated things much better than I could, so I won't go too much into detail on that.

The problem with your whole argument is that the path that has the least amount of damage equates to the destruction of Tuskuru. Yamato invaders have orders to invade and conquer. That means the death of Kuon's people. Vurai can possibly make it worse or not (Tuskuru has a lot of winged magical fighters and, if necessary, Kamyu can become Mutsumi and blast Vurai to dust), but in the end, she is choosing a path to limit the death of the people invading her country while creating a path of a lot more death to her people. That is just unforgivable. Remember, she is the princess and most likely the rightful heir to Tuskuru.

As I said before no it doesn't. At least I don't remember the Emperor explicitly saying to destroy Tusukuru. An invasion is not destruction. Furthermore your overestimating Tusukuru, while this certainly not going be curbstomp war, but if the war escalates Tusukuru will be wrecked from the shear amount of collateral damage if they do win since this is they territory they are fighting on. They didn't spend several episodes hyping up Yamato's power for nothing.

Kuon also has no responsibility to people of Tusukuru, that's on the shoulders of it's current rulers. She not even been there in years, and is living her own life now. She won't doing this because she feels responsible for Tusukuru, she's doing it to prevent the deaths of people who are close to her. I don't think it's something you have to agree with but certainly don't think it is random or easy decision.

Personally while I'm on the side of Tusukuru here since Yamato is the aggressor, but I do sympathize with Kuon's situation because as I said no matter who wins she will lose unless the war comes to halt prematurely or passes quickly by Yamato acquiring Iceman. I like that their make this little more complex than war in the first season or the recent barbarian invasion.

[tsunade666]

No matter how you sugarcoat it, I won't side with the decision of Kuon. She is basically selling her own country. And no responsibility? she is running away from her responsibility. She is the daughter of the previews leader and the current retainers are just letting her do what she wants but that doesn't change the fact that she is the next in line.

[PupNacke]

Dies kuon even know who her real father is?

[Nvis]

Were Benawi and Kurou that strong in the first season, wtf?

[thundrakkon]

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Originally Posted by Iron Maw

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Invasion means conquering. Conquering means taking over the country. Taking over the country means its destruction, as it no longer exists.

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Originally Posted by Iron Maw

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Yeah, and they just showed Benawi curbstomp Munechika like she was a child. She is one of those 8 pillar generals, and one of the most powerful as well. That is not to mention that Tuskuru hasn't even unleashed all of its most powerful fighters neither.

All the while, Tuskuru has been doing quite well in the war, fending off the invaders with ease. Kuon, on the hand, is actively trying to weaken that defense, which will lead to more casualties for Tuskuru.

Also, not all 8 pillar generals can participate in the invasion, since it will leave Yamato defenseless against an invasion into Yamato. Tuskuru has contingency plans against all generals, I'm pretty sure, with all the spying that has been done to prepare them against Yamato.

As far as things are going, Tuskuru has been preventing Yamato from going further into the country (currently, looks like only the outskirts are being attacked). They are definitely preventing the country from having collateral damage. By Kuon weakening the defense, it will allow the invaders to go further into Tuskuru territory, which will definitely increase collateral damage to the country.

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Originally Posted by Iron Maw

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Uhhhh.... What?!?!?! She is the princess of Tuskuru. I don't know how it gets any more clear than that. If the princess of a country has no responsibility to her people, I'm not sure what I can even say to you anymore.

Remember that Oboro traveled around the world for a long time before he returned and is currently ruling Tuskuru in the meantime in place of Hakuro and Hakuro's rightful heir....

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Originally Posted by Iron Maw

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Snip section answered above.

If she really wants to prevent death of people close to her, she should just thwart them and lead them out of danger each time. She should not even get them involved into dangerous places like the fortress. A zero result and zero sum game will prevent deaths and not betray her country. She should not actively involve herself into the weakening of Tuskuru.

Also, you're assumption, and that's a big assumption, that Yamato will only swiftly do a strategic strike to get to Iceman, even though they have no idea where that is. You're assuming that they will not destroy everything in their path. Also, you're assuming that everything will be fine and dandy once they get to Iceman. The only problem is, if they get to Iceman, he won't be happy and will probably proceed to destroying the world. How is that going to reduce collateral damage?

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Originally Posted by Nvis

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Many years have passed since then, and I'm sure they have continued to train each day. You would expect them to get stronger by leaps and bounds since then.

[Iron Maw]

Originally Posted by tsunade666

No matter how you sugarcoat it, I won't side with the decision of Kuon. She is basically selling her own country. And no responsibility? she is running away from her responsibility. She is the daughter of the previews leader and the current retainers are just letting her do what she wants but that doesn't change the fact that she is the next in line.

If Kuon's family felt that way they wouldn't be doing what they re doing now and would have dragged her back. Besides if she sides with Tsuskuru to prolong the war then her people come to regard as second family will die. Then what? War is just as much about the individual as it as much about the nation.

Where is the victory in for her any of this?

[Iron Maw]

Originally Posted by thundrakkon

Invasion means conquering. Conquering means taking over the country. Taking over the country means its destruction, as it no longer exists.

Yeeeeaaaaahhhh no. That not even remove close to the truth. Yes something invasions have lead to destruction, by most of time they usually lead to occupation. At worst if the war were to conclude Tusukuru would windup a vassal state and become part of Yamato like most of the other countries have. It's absolute nowhere that simple or cut and dry.

Once again the Emperor never said anything about destroying Tusukuru.

Munechika herself states she doesn't plan to harm civilians and she wants what to win this quickly before Vurai comes to battlefield brings a real massacre. She easily among one of most rational general. You're trying to make them all out to be Vurai or something.

Yeah, and they just showed Benawi curbstomp Munechika like she was a child. She is one of those 8 pillar generals, and one of the most powerful as well. That is not to mention that Tuskuru hasn't even unleashed all of its most powerful fighters neither.

We actually didn't see anything other than her being tried and she hadn't used her mask's powers. Considering she was still standing it hardly seems like it was curbstomp. Beaten yes, but nowhere as badly as you making it out. Besides even she was defeated by him it only he has strong some of Eight Pillar Generals, not all of them.

All the while, Tuskuru has been doing quite well in the war, fending off the invaders with ease. Kuon, on the hand, is actively trying to weaken that defense, which will lead to more casualties for Tuskuru.

Actually Munechika stated there hadn't been any large scale direct confrontation, just night raids aimed at their supplies. Military Yamato isn't weaker, but they are at disadvantage since they don't know the lay of land very well.

Again Kuon wants seen the long the war goes on the more people on both sides die. Tsuskuru surrenders or is forced to the fighting stops. Otherwise Tusukuru have to invaded Yamato themselves since I doubt Mito will back from his quest to acquire Iceman. Or hope that Emperor death stops the invasion as it is.

BTW, Aruru had just the enemy army attacking her homeland get supplies. I guess she's traitor too then huh?

Also, not all 8 pillar generals can participate in the invasion, since it will leave Yamato defenseless against an invasion into Yamato. Tuskuru has contingency plans against all generals, I'm pretty sure, with all the spying that has been done to prepare them against Yamato.

Those are all maybes, it's been pointed out the tactics Tsuskuru won't work on Vurai on at least. Besides Yamato more than just power, but tacticians themselves.

As far as things are going, Tuskuru has been preventing Yamato from going further into the country (currently, looks like only the outskirts are being attacked). They are definitely preventing the country from having collateral damage. By Kuon weakening the defense, it will allow the invaders to go further into Tuskuru territory, which will definitely increase collateral damage to the country.

It's stated that Yamato has actually hit deep into the country's territory. It seems like their are making a beeline to one particular place too.

Once again, they just stated in very episode the war has not hit full scale yet. Emperor only sent three divisons because he though it would it be enough, but Tusukuru held up a better than he thought. Tusukuru's early lead isn't making the Emperor scared and forcing thim o back out of the war.

Uhhhh.... What?!?!?! She is the princess of Tuskuru. I don't know how it gets any more clear than that. If the princess of a country has no responsibility to her people, I'm not sure what I can even say to you anymore.

The she would be in said country learning how to rule it instead living in another one for years being a doctor. Clearly this doesn't not seem to matter to her family or Tusukuru as a whole. This what this story has presented, I'm not the writing it so take up with author it have an issue not me.

Remember that Oboro traveled around the world for a long time before he returned and is currently ruling Tuskuru in the meantime in place of Hakuro and Hakuro's rightful heir....

How does mean anything? As you said Kuon supposed to be the one ruling the country being a decedent of Hakuoro. Oboro merely acting as regent and would not even be there if Kuon decided to rule. Furthermore traveling around the world is not same thing as living another for indefinite among of time. You know that. I've never heard of royalty who would even do that.

If she really wants to prevent death of people close to her, she should just thwart them and lead them out of danger each time. She should not even get them involved into dangerous places like the fortress. A zero result and zero sum game will prevent deaths and not betray her country. She should not actively involve herself into the weakening of Tuskuru.

And how she supposed to do that? The most of the country will engulfed in a chaotic battlefield where many of her family and friends in Tsuskuru and Yamato well be dragged into the longer it lasts. And many of those people will end fighting in different part of country, she can't be multiple places at once to save everyone.

Also, you're assumption, and that's a big assumption, that Yamato will only swiftly do a strategic strike to get to Iceman, even though they have no idea where that is. You're assuming that they will not destroy everything in their path. Also, you're assuming that everything will be fine and dandy once they get to Iceman. The only problem is, if they get to Iceman, he won't be happy and will probably proceed to destroying the world. How is that going to reduce collateral damage?

I didn't say that. I'm saying their after Iceman. If they wanted just destroy Tusukuru Emperor would have don't a longtime ago, we wouldn't have a scene with envoy trying to negotiate with Tusukuru prior to the war. Munechika has been doing her part to minimize causalities on population beyond the soldiers. She even listen to Kuon's request on not to kill Benwai. The only one who saying they want destroy anything is you.

I agree that going after Iceman is bad idea, but Emperor doesn't know that, he thinks it's his only hope in restoring humanity.

[thundrakkon]

@Iron Maw

I'm just going to leave it there, since it looks like you're very set in your beliefs. You are trying to bend everything to your perspective, even when everyone else is pointing points against it. There is no longer a reason to continue this discussion, as it is going to repeat the same points that everyone else is trying to tell you.

[Iron Maw]

Whose is everyone? I all did was disagree you and few others. I'm not trying to bend anyone to my will only explaining my views using the shows context just as you are. Everyone has interpretations of any given book/movie/whatever piece of fiction. You're clearly staunch on your beliefs too and that's fine.

Really, I'm only pointing out Kuon has people she cares about on both sides and that won't change. And those very gonna meet kill each other by will of their respective leaders if things remain the way they are. None of these people are going to back down, which leaves her with little options. Some people seem to be ignoring that.

I neither said I supported her idea or was against it, (but I understand it on a emotional level) I just want to see how things play out because I find this to be an interesting dilemma.

[Anh_Minh]

I don't understand Kuon's thinking either. She's either giving Yamato a false hope that can only prolong the war, or completely betraying her country to barbaric foreign invaders.

[Alf]

This is the most controversal decision Kuon ever made. It boils down to the conflict of her two different identities, and she will be wrong no matter which side she takes.

And no, taking others away from danger is to sway them away from who they are now, and this ultimately means building a third force in the middle. She wish to preserve her happy life as much as possible, but in this situation the rules of the world is working against her.

Now that the Emperor's death have given her an easy escape to avoid more controversal decisions. But the question is, is her problem really gone?

Let's hope the ending do preserve some of the meaning from the game plot....

[mysterious]

I am not sure where this controversial conflict comes from. On one hand you have your home country which you are likely to inherit at some point, your loving and caring family, and all other people that has care for you for like since you were born. On the other hand, you have a bunch of newly made friends who sheepishly following their god emperor to invade your country. Most of those who care for you is in charge of governing and protecting your homeland which make them the most likely to be killed if their country fails. AND you still have difficulty in choosing side? wait, you already chose to help your newly acquired friends to invade your homeland.

Hakuroro really should wake up and give her a good spanking at the very least. Then turn all those in Yamato into jelly since they are not gonna use their brains to think for themselves anyway.

[tsunade666]

I'm confused. I skipped watching the useless episodes so I don't know and I mostly fast forward the stupid scenes but... the new friends of Kuon knows that she is from Tsukuru but they don't know she's the princess isn't it?

because in this episode, Haku was confused on the reaction of the tuskuru soldiers and how they knew Kuon. Even in the gameplay (I'm thankful for that) Haku doesn't also know that Kuon is the princess.

is she keeping it secret?

[Alf]

Yeah, she's keeping it secret. In the game Haku have been guessing her identity by her relationship with Aruru and Kamyu so he may have some idea, but he has the habit of looking away from bad possibilties.

Originally Posted by mysterious

I am not sure where this controversial conflict comes from. On one hand you have your home country which you are likely to inherit at some point, your loving and caring family, and all other people that has care for you for like since you were born. On the other hand, you have a bunch of newly made friends who sheepishly following their god emperor to invade your country. Most of those who care for you is in charge of governing and protecting your homeland which make them the most likely to be killed if their country fails. AND you still have difficulty in choosing side? wait, you already chose to help your newly acquired friends to invade your homeland.

Hakuroro really should wake up and give her a good spanking at the very least. Then turn all those in Yamato into jelly since they are not gonna use their brains to think for themselves anyway.

Well, most points are discussed by others several posts back. But most importantly, these friends in Yamato are the only ones she have and Haku is the man she cares the most. She have family in Tuskuru but no friends because she is the princess(similar to Anju), so you cannot take it lightly when she consider her friends especially when they have much higher chance to die.

Haku and the group don't have options either. It's not that they don't think for themselves, but most of them don't really have a choice and Haku was going to leave her behind to spare her from trouble.

It's not to say Kuon is right, but either way she is wrong. And it's only the difference in power swayed her to this decision. It's wrong for her to betray her family, but it's also wrong for her to let her friends to embrace death and do nothing.

[Anh_Minh]

She could have arranged to have them taken prisoners, if that was the only problem.

[mysterious]

Originally Posted by Alf

Haku and the group don't have options either. It's not that they don't think for themselves, but most of them don't really have a choice

All I was shown is that with the exception of Haku, every single one of them be like it is the will of the emperor or the emperor must have some unfathomable reasons that us mere mortal can not comprehend. So spare me that "they are thinking for themselves." They also do have options though like cut connection with their families and lives like peasants. Most of them are children of the ruling class and their life styles are funded by the taxes of general population. So they can either fulfill their noble obligation or live by their own means.

Originally Posted by Alf

It's not to say Kuon is right, but either way she is wrong. And it's only the difference in power swayed her to this decision. It's wrong for her to betray her family, but it's also wrong for her to let her friends to embrace death and do nothing.

How is it wrong for her to let her friend who have no problem in invading her country, killing the citizens (war casualties) and possibly her family in the process to die? They can like you know not going to war in the first place.

I find it hilarious that people can even feel pity for Haku group which participate in an invasion of another country with out a just cause. Just because Tsukuru happens to have the upper hand in the war does not mean they dont have casualties of their own. Thing would have fine and dandy if those poor Yamato people mind their own business in the first place. These discussions reeks of blaming the victims mentality.

[Triple_R]

I see Alf's points. Friends vs. Family, New Home vs. Old Home, I can understand these being hard decisions with no easy answer.

But that's precisely the problem in the execution of the current Utawa 2 arc - Kuon seems remarkably easygoing and relaxed about all of this. It doesn't seem to bother her in the least that she is betraying her family and her people. There's not the slightest sense of inner anguish or turmoil to Kuon's character, and there really ought to be given what the anime has shown so far.

In fact, it's like what Kurou said - Kuon seems to be treating this all like some game. There's something very off-putting and disconcerting about that. Episode 20 often had this almost Looney Tunes-esque comedy vibe to it that clashes nastily with the actual seriousness and gravity of the situation. It's kinda like the anime writers are trying to BS the viewers into not noticing the severity of Kuon's actions by glossing it over with loads and loads of conventional Haku-style comedy.


There's much I've liked about Utawa 2, but the full show is leaving a lot to be desired, and has some serious tonal and characterization issues. Having recently watched the first few episodes of Utawa 1, I'm starting to see Utawa 2 has a weak and perhaps even unworthy sequel to the original.

[Alf]

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

She could have arranged to have them taken prisoners, if that was the only problem.

If she do that, her happy life will never be back. Of course, her choice doesn't warrant that life will continue.

Originally Posted by mysterious

All I was shown is that with the exception of Haku, every single one of them be like it is the will of the emperor or the emperor must have some unfathomable reasons that us mere mortal can not comprehend. So spare me that "they are thinking for themselves." They also do have options though like cut connection with their families and lives like peasants. Most of them are children of the ruling class and their life styles are funded by the taxes of general population. So they can either fulfill their noble obligation or live by their own means.

That's why I said putting them out of danger ultimately means building a third force in between. And because of who they are, they can't escape just by cutting ties. The world will react upon their actions. People are never truely free by escaping. And it is also just to avoid the wrong doing of Kuon herself at the cost of everybody else in the group to betray their family.

Perhaps you want to say invasion is wrong and everybody just need to act against it? If it can be done the world would be a lot simpler.

Originally Posted by mysterious

How is it wrong for her to let her friend who have no problem in invading her country, killing the citizens (war casualties) and possibly her family in the process to die? They can like you know not going to war in the first place.

I find it hilarious that people can even feel pity for Haku group which participate in an invasion of another country with out a just cause. Just because Tsukuru happens to have the upper hand in the war does not mean they dont have casualties of their own. Thing would have fine and dandy if those poor Yamato people mind their own business in the first place. These discussions reeks of blaming the victims mentality.

You have been mixing up reasonings.

First, it's Kuon's consideration that her friends are going to get killed, and whether these friends have problem killing or not is another problem.

Second, understanding Kuon's care for her friends does not mean pity for Haku and group and support invasion.

You have been taking it too emotional because it's just their place to get involved into the invasion so you cannot say they deserve getting killed. Of course you can say they should take the responsibilty of doing so if they choose to obey the order, but it doesn't stop Kuon from caring for them.

It's not to pity for Haku's group or blaming the victim, because it's just being rational to understand a character. If Kuon cares for her friends, then she will feel guilty for letting them get killed. And if she doesn't care for her homeland, then she wouldn't feel conflicted. After rationalization, empathy or hatred is another issue.