2013-07-09, 06:33 | Link #29321 | ||
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Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Australia
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Sorry , looking at WW2 and Vietnam War were like my favorite hobby during high school/early uni. But after the Tet offenses there were massive reports of mass graves collaborated by US and South Vietnam offices trying to turn the mass population against the Vietcong. Most was concentrated in the city of Hue where based on timelines, the Vietcong swiftly took over, then US and South Vietnam forces barricaded the city trapping most of the residents inside. The fighting continue, with the trapped Vietcong and US with superior air force and heavy weapons flatten and damage 70% of the city structures. Almost none civillians killing was reported by the US. Then up to two months after the war ended, mass graves were conveniently "discovered" around the city, credited to Vietcong's massacres. None of the reporters were allowed to enter onsite of such mass graves. It bit back massively through, as those propaganda/reports directly led to the fall of Saigon 6 years later (dying people aside, it's hilarious, honestly) But you can guess what i means. If you are looking at things (like motivations) beyond "facts" (i prefer using this than "truth"). It is easy for your opinion to be swayed, and actions can be rejustified. Context is important but that only was after assessing the event independently by itself. Quote:
I means i will still against spying if US pass the regulations allowing legitimately spying their own citizens. It will be same with torture in that case, most of the public against it, but still legitimate. But it will be different with this case isn't it?
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2013-07-09, 06:44 | Link #29322 | |
Moving in circles
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Singapore
Age: 49
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"And the whole thing is the picture destroyed (the general's) life. And that's what bothers me more than anything else."
Eddie Adams, the photographer behind the Saigon Execution picture |
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2013-07-09, 06:50 | Link #29323 | |
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Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Australia
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Did the fact that the police guy's life was destroyed making his killing more justified? And the dead guy became more guilty without charged? Edit: we really should ends this soon and return the thread, otherwise our posts will soon be both deleted anyway
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2013-07-09, 07:10 | Link #29324 |
books-eater youkai
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Betweem wisdom and insanity
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For those than can read French: Et si c'était arrivé aux États-Unis? ( And if it would had happened in the US ? )
http://affaires.lapresse.ca/opinions...etats-unis.php
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2013-07-09, 09:40 | Link #29326 | |
Master of Coin
Join Date: Mar 2008
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Was mother Teresa a total fraud?
http://whyevolutionistrue.wordpress....an-we-thought/ Quote:
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2013-07-09, 11:52 | Link #29327 | |||
Moving in circles
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Singapore
Age: 49
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======= Back on topic: If we knew what President Obama knows, based on what he gets from the surveillance programme, would we still be so quick to condemn the system? Perhaps that is indeed besides the point, since as you pointed out, the fact the system was kept hidden was absolutely reprehensible to begin with. Bottom-line though, is Edward Snowden a hero for breaking the secret the way he did? I wouldn't go so far to call him a hero. If he had truly wanted to hold the moral high ground, there were legal channels for him to blow the whistle. He chose not to use those channels. And that naturally makes me want to question his motives. It makes me doubt his so-called "heroism". To be sure, he never described himself in such terms. As MeoTwister5 said, it's just a case of some people putting him up on a pedestal he never asked for. I suspect he's just a cocky smartass who believes that he knows a lot better than all the sheeple around him. To me, prisoners or exiles of conscience are made of much sterner stuff. To me, he's just a kid on the run and bitching loudly about it. Still, he did break the story and revealed the truth as he saw it. I'd give him that much. Just don't expect me to idolise him the way some people do. ======= And finally, to keep this thread focused on the news: Edward Snowden: 'The US government will say I aided our enemies' The Guardian releases the second part of the video interview with Snowden. |
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2013-07-09, 12:50 | Link #29328 | ||
I disagree with you all.
Join Date: Dec 2005
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What people are reacting to, here, isn't Snowden's character. It's America's spying practices, which no one, least of all America, is denying. Maybe Snowden doesn't have the moral courage needed to, say, blow the whistle and spend years in jail. Maybe he's got things to hide, or maybe he just doesn't trust the system. (It's one thing to go to the government for protection when you blow the whistle on a company. It's another to do the same when you blow it on the government...) |
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2013-07-09, 13:54 | Link #29329 |
Me, An Intellectual
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: UK
Age: 33
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As far as I can see the biggest problem is the US and related countries spying on their own people Orwellian style, trying to make sure the people never learn about a program that it totally their right to know about and going to such ridiculous lengths to persecute anyone who is actually willing to reveal what the government is up to, even going as far to bully the leaders of smaller countries like Bolivia. It would have to take a hell of a lot for Snowden's character to be anywhere near that level and so far it seems to me that the only arguments can quite easily be explained with Hanlon's Razor.
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2013-07-09, 18:31 | Link #29330 |
Moving in circles
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Singapore
Age: 49
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The last time I checked, spying is usually something that, you know, takes place in secret?
I mean, would it still be spying if I politely knocked on your door, informed you that I would be tapping your phone and kindly requested that you sign a consent form for me to listen in on your conversation? Hence my earlier question: Is spying, in principle, right or wrong? What is actually offensive about the Prism system? Is it because spying is categorically wrong, or is it because the government didn't tell anyone about it? Would you still be an effective spy if I knew not only that you are spying on me, but also how? Would you really be able to get the information you want? Look, I don't think anyone likes to be spied on. I don't think anyone likes the idea of his privacy being secretly invaded. But spying happens. There is an entire chapter in the Art Of War dedicated to the necessity and importance of spying. To me, the question isn't whether the spying is categorically wrong, or whether it takes place in secret without consent. The question is to what extent is a system like Prism really necessary? To what extent can Americans live with such surveillance? And, to answer the question, you really need to know the bigger picture of what America purportedly faces in terms of threats, the greater context that none of us will really know at this present time, and which I highly doubt that Edward Snowden had any more access to than the rest of us. Many people would accept that spying is a necessary evil. So, the question should really be, does the benefit of spying outweigh the penalties? |
2013-07-09, 20:03 | Link #29332 | |
Master of Coin
Join Date: Mar 2008
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Also, nobody is complaining about spying as much as spying on CIVILIANS. Seriously, the world howled bloody murder a few months ago about China's supposed elite spy unit hitting American corporations and governments-and now you are sayings is a "necessary" thing?
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2013-07-09, 20:15 | Link #29333 |
Ava courtesy of patchy
Join Date: Jan 2009
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The funny thing for me about all this PRISM "comedy" business is how hyprocrite US government look after all the accusation they direct toward China and other country . For me personally, I always thought that spying is "necessary" evil so on personal level this relevation barely affect me at all, but there's something funny seeing the US government accuse and pressure Chinese government about Internet spying and it turns out the US is doing the same
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2013-07-09, 20:32 | Link #29335 |
Ava courtesy of patchy
Join Date: Jan 2009
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But the greatest threat for everything has always been from within. Even for "terrorists", they have a much higher chance to suceed with inside help than without. I agree with Archmage's point about how that much power in the hand of government/intelligence increase the risk of wrongdoings though.
With that said, I don't agree with how the news outlet/US government tries to attack Snowden's character to discredit him. A snitch/"informant" information about a crime gang is still as valuable even if said "informant" is a gang member himself/only doing it for his own good(could be money or pardon from punishment) as long as the information is accurate so why should this be any different? |
2013-07-09, 20:42 | Link #29336 |
books-eater youkai
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Betweem wisdom and insanity
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How the Pentagon’s payroll quagmire traps America’s soldiers
http://preview.reuters.com/2013/7/2/...y-the-pentagon Obama speaks with UAE Crown Prince, Qatar Emir about Egypt concerns http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/...96900V20130710
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2013-07-10, 01:25 | Link #29337 | |
I disagree with you all.
Join Date: Dec 2005
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And, for foreign powers, "the US got caught. Isn't it time to put the screws on them about it? Isn't that how it's done?" Last edited by Anh_Minh; 2013-07-10 at 05:34. |
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2013-07-10, 05:26 | Link #29338 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2009
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Agreed. Another major issue is that Prism is untargeted, it collects and stores data on everyone without grounds for suspicion. The threat of terrorism has allowed intelligence agencies to encroach on the domain of law enforcement, but without any of the legal constraints governing the latter.
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2013-07-10, 06:03 | Link #29339 | ||
Moving in circles
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Singapore
Age: 49
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As for the concerns about government overreach like those of Anh_Minh's: Quote:
But, like it or not, the Act is still there in the statute books. So Mr Obama wasn't lying when he insisted that Prism is legal. As for foreign powers, Snowden himself had declared: The NSA is in bed with most Western states. He's probably quite right. The programme has likely benefitted many other states, not just the US. And that may well explain why no one is keen on giving him asylum. |
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2013-07-10, 07:03 | Link #29340 |
books-eater youkai
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Betweem wisdom and insanity
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China warns of 'grim' trade outlook after surprise exports fall
http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/...96902L20130710 China ready to hand over audit documents to U.S. regulators http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/...96902Q20130710
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current affairs, discussion, international |
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