Gift ~ Eternal Rainbow

[DrewGSR]

Kirino is a psycho jealous hater... She'll probably end up going psycho and use some crazy gift to try and pull some crap. Kirino will end up making some crazy ass "gift" and some BS things will go down, but Haruhiko will somehow save the day and figure something out. In the end Haruhiko and Riko will live together. At least thats how i see it haha.

Go Riko & Haruhiko!!

[DanielSong39]

Now that's impressive character development... Kirino goes from being the weak link in Episode 1 to being the engine that makes this series go. Some of her scenes in Episode 9 were pure gold.

Looks like the creators swung for the fences in Episode 9 and pulled it off. And Episode 10 looks even more promising. Let's see if they can keep things going until the end.

[npal]

The show just got interesting. Hurray Bad thing is, I don't see someone dying, or someone locked up somewhere bearing the grudge for ages to come, as would have been the more logical conclusion, but whatever. I hope they don't pull any "thank you Haruhiko, I saw the light now, let's be friends", although something tells me that kind of idiocy will occur, as it is bound to happen in all happy harem titles.

But since they went with Kirino, let the massacre begin I say

[Shiroth]

Originally Posted by relentlessflame

Oh yeah, and have I mentioned recently that I love Hikaru Nanase's soundtrack for this show? It continues in the excellent tradition of D.C.S.S. and Kagihime, and her piano melodies (fitting) and use of other intrumentation is really great (especially near the end of this episode around 18 minutes in - take a listen...). Can't wait for the OST!

Heh, i've mentioned a few times how Nanase Hikaru's music fits perfectly into a show like this - just like both Da Capo seasons. & just to let you know - Gift OST is released on the 24th of January.

Episode 09 played out perfectly, i just adore seeing Riko and Haruhiko as a couple. There on-stage love works perfectly, easy to understand just how long that loves been around between them. I understand that Kirino has a right to be angry with Riko using a Gift, but still.. she really is taking this to far. She needs to understand, and i'm sure she shall next episode.

[relentlessflame]

Originally Posted by npal

Bad thing is, I don't see someone dying, or someone locked up somewhere bearing the grudge for ages to come, as would have been the more logical conclusion, but whatever.

...The real question here would be: why would anyone expect that to be the "more logical conclusion" for a show about "Gift, a mysterious power that brings happiness by granting miracles"? They can't just throw away the theme. Besides, why would you want to watch something where the moral of the story is "through no fault of your own, you may lose your first love to fate and live forever in bitterness until you die"? Even depressing shows offer a glimmer of hope! So, in summary... as far as I'm concerned, you can keep your "massacre", and I'll keep my more logical bittersweet ending, thank you very much... (I fear for the type of show you and other like-minded people in this thread would create...)

[xaisen]

reminds me of a scene in shuffle kirino also reminds me of another character in shuffle as well ^_^;

[holyman282]

lol indeed relentless hard to imagine what sort of shows they are thinking of where the person holds a grudge for the rest of his life, for me bittersweet moments bring a wider spectrum of emotions, from happiness to downright tears, the fact that if an anime was made where the character does bear a grudge for the rest of his life, the emotions are very limited, in fact the show wouldn't even make me feel sad cause it's just downright gloomy...

[npal]

Originally Posted by relentlessflame

...The real question here would be: why would anyone expect that to be the "more logical conclusion" for a show about "Gift, a mysterious power that brings happiness by granting miracles"? They can't just throw away the theme. Besides, why would you want to watch something where the moral of the story is "through no fault of your own, you may lose your first love to fate and live forever in bitterness until you die"? Even depressing shows offer a glimmer of hope! So, in summary... as far as I'm concerned, you can keep your "massacre", and I'll keep my more logical bittersweet ending, thank you very much... (I fear for the type of show you and other like-minded people in this thread would create...)

Well, yes, I find it really strange when someone has invested so much on somebody can just accept the fact that he invested for naught and move on. Crimes have been committed for much less throughout human history, and it's pretty easy to imagine someone's mentality getting damaged at some point. I know many of you like to live in a utopia where everything resolves ok and everyone is happy or at least leave the past behind.

A theme can only justify a certain amount of things, so if you knowingly dare to invoke stuff that are on a direct collision with the theme, you must be prepared to sacrifice something. Yes, on many occasions like these, a character in the story must pay a heavy price and the audience has to realize that it is indeed a heavy price instead of brassing it off as "ah nice, they'll get over it apparently". There are a number of ways out of dark themes. Some are lame but logical (logical in this specific universe that is), some are outright bad writing with poor rationality, and those that I remember being successful (as far as character development and understanding of the psychological factors at work in a given situation) involve heavy sacrifices of some sort by one or more characters, and even then, the most we'll get is a bittersweet ending. And this : "Besides, why would you want to watch something where the moral of the story is "through no fault of your own, you may lose your first love to fate and live forever in bitterness until you die" has the simple answer that it happens, and most of the time when strong feeling are involved, this is the LEAST of one's worries. People have killed for this on many occasions, so I consider holding an eternal grudge a very nice way of avoiding further incidents. Now, obviously, there are many ways to lessen the impact, but thinking that a strong attachment such as this can be dropped with little fuss is delusional to say the least.

And I'm also tired of everyone being friends after events so fateful and dramatic as those. Plus, no matter what happens to the third person, it's STILL a bittersweet ending. After all, the couple in question does live happily ever after no matter what might befall the third character, no? Such is the way of things. There are many questions that could rise from such a bitter series, far more interesting and intriguing than "and we all were friends and lived happily ever after". If you ask me, they should have kept it in the romantic department, solving Gift mishaps while deepening a relationship and understanding each other instead of invoking the always successful but poorly used dramatic device of the hurt third person. Since they wanted to use that, I don't want to see another "let's be friends and get over it". Or should it just dawn on the third person that we should forget everything and move on? LOL. For once, I want to see a writer throw the full psychological impact of the characters' decisions upon the audience instead of chickening out or not understanding character interactions at all. Of course, since this must be another series of low aspirations in this department, I'm not waiting for anything more than everyone being happy in the end.

[Skyfall]

^ ZOMG wall of text Please add paragraphs so i can read it without hurting my eyes

[relentlessflame]

Originally Posted by npal

Well, yes, I find it really strange when someone has invested so much on somebody can just accept the fact that he invested for naught and move on. [...]

Which of us is living a dream world, again? It's not a matter of "just accepting it" immediately (and neither do I expect it to be portrayed in this show that "cleanly"), but most people do accept it and move on. Reality check: most psychologically-balanced people don't go "psycho", don't hold serious long-term grudges, and don't kill people because their long-time crush doesn't return their feelings. Although it takes a while, most people do move on and find happiness in life. This has happened to me personally, and I'm sure it has happened to a lot of other people here. The cycle of grief, after passing through shock, denial, anger, and despair, always ends with acceptance. Of course the journey/time this requires is abridged in these shows in the interests of being concise, but I can't really call that a fault.

So, respectfully, I really don't know what you're on about, but it doesn't seem to have very much to do with the plot or theme of this show as delivered so far. This has never been about "the dark side of having your love stolen from you", even if you wish it were. If you love someone, you will want them to be happy, even if that means sacrificing your own selfish feelings. That's not easy to do, but it's what must be done. That's not "utopia" -- that's life.

[Kefit]

Before watching episode 9, I told a friend that "in the episode of Gift I am about to watch, I bet Kirino is going to go Kaede and at the end of the episode threaten to activate the Sakura Tree."

And indeed, this episode saw Kirino go Kaede and threaten to activate the Sakura Tree! Man, this show seems determined to shit all over Kirino as much as it possibly can. Riko steals Haruhiko away from her when they are kids. Then she leaves, allowing Kirino to get close to Haruhiko once again. Then she comes back and steals him away again! And to cap things off, Haruhiko doesn't seem to care about Kirino in the slightest anymore, and Riko broke their promise! No wonder this girl has such a shattered sense of self esteem. I can only wonder what is next.

Speaking of which, I am rather surprised by Haruhiko's behavior in this episode. As I mentioned a couple of weeks ago, throughout the series he has shown a considerable lack of thought or care regarding Kirino. This is a normal, understandable reaction for a guy who has suddenly fallen head over heels in love. But as of this episode (and possibly in 8 too), Haruhiko's head is no longer in the clouds. No longer is he simply ignoring Kirino, along with the rest of the world. Now his behavior towards her is of carefully calculated disregard, with no sign of remorse or distress on his part. While this calculated disregard is probably among the healthiest paths open to Haruhiko right now, I never, ever want to be friends with a guy who can so easily throw away a close friendship he has had his entire life without any signs of regret. I'm really pretty shocked that Haruhiko is capable of doing so.

As a final note, the confrontation between Riko and Kirino at the end of this episode would have worked a lot better if Haruhiko hadn't of been there. The fact that he just stood there stupidly, without doing anything, made his awkward presence even worse.

[relentlessflame]

Originally Posted by Kefit

While this calculated disregard is probably among the healthiest paths open to Haruhiko right now, I never, ever want to be friends with a guy who can so easily throw away a close friendship he has had his entire life without any signs of regret. I'm really pretty shocked that Haruhiko is capable of doing so.

Well, as you said, this is pretty much the best he can do. Would it be easier to be friends with someone who would continue to lead the other girl on once it's clear that what she wants is to be "more than just friends"? (She didn't ask for a "friendship" charm, remember...) He can't just go on acting like nothing's changed; she changed the game herself. In my mind, he's doing all he can do: making it clear how he feels and giving her space as she needs it. He would like to stay friends (he even said that), but her forcing her feelings on him has made it awkward. So what can he do? "Rock", meet "hard place". No matter what, this was never going to be easy.

Originally Posted by Kefit

Man, this show seems determined to shit all over Kirino as much as it possibly can. Riko steals Haruhiko away from her when they are kids. Then she leaves, allowing Kirino to get close to Haruhiko once again. Then she comes back and steals him away again! And to cap things off, Haruhiko doesn't seem to care about Kirino in the slightest anymore, and Riko broke their promise! No wonder this girl has such a shattered sense of self esteem. I can only wonder what is next.

Well, the problem has always been that he just doesn't love her, no matter how much she wants him to. He sees her as a childhood friend and possibly more like a sister (in the truer sense), but she wants "exclusivity" - hence the whole "she stole him away from me" (he never belonged to her anyway). She's being selfish and co-dependant, and that's not healthy. What Kirino needs most isn't to be close to Haruhiko, but to become stronger and independant so that she can stand on her own two feet without him.

So, I guess what I'm saying is that, much like all the previous "bad examples" of unreciprocated Gifts in the show, Kirino's problem is that she's thinking only of herself right now. I'm not saying that it isn't understandable -- she's finally figured out that the guy she's been in love with all this time won't return her feelings, and that's an incredibly tough realization -- but, that's the reality she has to come to grips with. See my discussion with npal about the two possible ways she could handle this. Of course we're supposed to feel sorry for her and identify with her struggle - but I don't think it's without reason or justification.

[holyman282]

Npal also the fact that they make it a happy ending where girls like Kirino move on is also alot more meaningful to me cause basically it teaches a lesson, about not holding onto something that could eventually cause breakdown. An ending where the person holds an grudge until they die really doesn't have any point to the story apart from shocking the audience. The fact is like what relentless says is that not everyone goes on a killing spree just because they got their hearts broken, in fact that concept is not the norm, if indeed that idea is realistic then there would be alot of homicidal maniacs out there wanting to kill everyone cause they got dumped.

[Kefit]

I don't intend to fault Haruhiko for the way he is handling this. Actually, the problem is that he is coping with it too well. He is not struggling with any feelings of distress over having to shove Kirino away. Hell, he seems to barely give it a thought. It is a healthy solution to his problem, but he is carrying it out far more easily than he really should be able to. Unless, of course, he never really cared much about Kirino at all (and I don't mean as a lover; simply as a friend) - in which case shame on him for using and misleading the poor girl for so many years.

And yes, Kirino needs to become independent from Haruhiko and lead her own life and all that jazz (of course, I could say this about the vast majority of bishoujos, and could probably make a pretty compelling case for Riko if I cared enough to). I was just commenting on how cruel this show is being to her, using phrasing that reflected Kirino's perspective on everything. It isn't any of the character's faults, but Kirino really has been incredibly unlucky and gotten far more crap shoved upon her than any other hgame anime girl in recent memory. This in no way makes her more "deserving" to "win" Haruhiko (the concept of desert has no place in matters of love anyway), but I really hope that she ends up with more than the cliched "becoming independent and living my own life" developments. However, I really have no idea what else could happen that would make sense - then again, that is the writer's job to figure out, not mine :p

[holyman282]

being independent is probably the best ending for her unless you believe that she finds a boyfriend later on, while that's all good and dandy, the fact is, it doesn't have as much an effect as accepting that her feelings won't be returned, but she still has them. If she finds another boyfriend in the end then that would mean that her feelings for Haruhiko was merely an infatuation and that there was no deep emotion into it as she found another lover so easily.

[relentlessflame]

Originally Posted by Kefit

I don't intend to fault Haruhiko for the way he is handling this. Actually, the problem is that he is coping with it too well. He is not struggling with any feelings of distress over having to shove Kirino away. Hell, he seems to barely give it a thought. It is a healthy solution to his problem, but he is carrying it out far more easily than he really should be able to. Unless, of course, he never really cared much about Kirino at all (and I don't mean as a lover; simply as a friend) - in which case shame on him for using and misleading the poor girl for so many years.

Hmm... maybe you're right. I guess Haruhiko's "fatal flaw" is that he's so in love with Riko that Kirino's feelings simply don't register at all. I doubt that he ever intended to "use and mislead" her; she was just sort of "always there" (just like a true "childhood friend"), and he had come to accept her place in his life in that capacity. Of course, that makes things all the more frustrating for Kirino who, as you pointed out, probably feels that fate is playing a cruel joke with her life (she wanted to be his sister, would've preferred to be his lover, and now, thanks to her not-entirely-misplaced jealousy, may not be able to stay a friend?).

If I were to guess, I'd say that these next few episodes should help address this whole issue to a degree, but we'll see how they handle it. I mean, to be clear, I'm not advocating for a second that she should all of a sudden have a magical change of heart (as she was pretending to have when talking to Haruhiko near the end of episode 9 -- that's so fake, which is why it was obviously an act in that scene). The question is, though, is there an ideal solution for all those involved at this point? As you said, that's the writer's job to figure out... we'll see what they do.

Edit: Incidentally, I hope people aren't taking the "serious tone" of the recent discussion too seriously... it's all intended in good debating spirit, and not meant as personal attacks or anything like that. I always enjoy a good and interesting discussion, so thanks to everyone; I hope you all feel the same way.

[Skyfall]

Originally Posted by Kefit

And indeed, this episode saw Kirino go Kaede and threaten to activate the Sakura Tree! Man, this show seems determined to shit all over Kirino as much as it possibly can. Riko steals Haruhiko away from her when they are kids. Then she leaves, allowing Kirino to get close to Haruhiko once again. Then she comes back and steals him away again! And to cap things off, Haruhiko doesn't seem to care about Kirino in the slightest anymore, and Riko broke their promise! No wonder this girl has such a shattered sense of self esteem. I can only wonder what is next.

Well, actually Riko did not steal anything away - Haruhiko's heart belonged to her ever since back then. (besides, Haruhiko does not belong to anyone - it is his choise to belong to some one, and in this case it's Riko. Kirino can't have Haruhiko stolen from her, because he was never her's to begin with, and as far as we know Haruhiko has never done anything to make her believe otherwise.

About the prommise (i have not seen ep9 yet) - as i gather it was a prommise not to use Gift in order to sway Haruhiko's feelings, right? Well, gues what - she never did! Haruhiko had no idea about her Gift prior to 1 day ago. Did this affect his feelings in any way? The mere fact that Riko's Gift worked as intended without him knowing shows where Haruhiko's heart has been all along.

Speaking of which, I am rather surprised by Haruhiko's behavior in this episode. As I mentioned a couple of weeks ago, throughout the series he has shown a considerable lack of thought or care regarding Kirino. This is a normal, understandable reaction for a guy who has suddenly fallen head over heels in love. But as of this episode (and possibly in 8 too), Haruhiko's head is no longer in the clouds. No longer is he simply ignoring Kirino, along with the rest of the world. Now his behavior towards her is of carefully calculated disregard, with no sign of remorse or distress on his part. While this calculated disregard is probably among the healthiest paths open to Haruhiko right now, I never, ever want to be friends with a guy who can so easily throw away a close friendship he has had his entire life without any signs of regret. I'm really pretty shocked that Haruhiko is capable of doing so.

Suddenly fallen in love? He has been in love with Riko ever since back then and has held on to his feelings for 7(?) years - thats hardly "suddenly". Hes ignoring Kirino? True dat. Other action he can take(which i expected of him to be honest to some extent) is to stand up for Riko and tell Kirino to do a reality check and get off his case. Which one is better? I don't know, but i myself would have possibly chosen the second one. I like to keep things straight and clear in cases like these. And he has been pretty straightforward about his feelings.

Like relentlessflame stated - Kirino never wanted to be "just a friend", and if he starts acting friendly towards her now it will simply give her false hope, and in the long run that would make the sitation even worse.

I don't intend to fault Haruhiko for the way he is handling this. Actually, the problem is that he is coping with it too well. He is not struggling with any feelings of distress over having to shove Kirino away. Hell, he seems to barely give it a thought. It is a healthy solution to his problem, but he is carrying it out far more easily than he really should be able to.

The thing is, there is only so much he can do for Kirino right now - what Kirino wants from him is not a friendly shoulder to cry on, or a friendly conversation from him. She wants to be his lover, not a friend, and he can't help her in this regard.

As for him not struggling - well, he has finaly gotten his 7 years old feelings returned, so i can kinda understand that he would care for Riko first and foremost. And the situation certainly would not be improved should he also act stressed and uncomfortable.

Strange, isnt it? We bash all(most) harem leads for being too nice towards all the girls while taking ages to choose one and leading everyone on for god knows how long in the end hurting every one.(To quote Suzuka:"Are you sure you are not mistaking the person you should be nice to?") And now that we have one that is 100% sure of his feelings and acts upon it without second thought, never giving any false hopes to the other girls, we still have some one coming out and bashing him

Ok, now to actually watch ep9 ...

Not saying i do not feel sorry for Kirino - she has spent all these years trying to get his atention, but you can't blame Haruhiko for the fact that his Heart belongs to Riko and acting upon it. Kirino is getting the short end of the deal here, but it really isn't any ones fault.

I might come off sounding cruel and inconsiderate towards Kirino saying this, but that is the reality of her situation, as was never my intention to step on some ones nerves with this post, even if it seems written in a rather harsh tone

[Kefit]

I think you are missing my point.

Haruhiko is doing nothing wrong. He is doing the healthy thing by shoving Kirino away. But I don't understand how he does it so easily. He has been close friends with this girl for years, and breaking apart friendships like this is painful. This is a problem with the writing and character consistency, not a moral judgement of Haruhiko's actions.

And I already stated that my use of phrasing like "Riko stole Haruhiko from Kirino" was to better reflect Kirino's perspective of the situation. All of the crap is hitting her, so it only makes sense to look at the crap from her perspective. If nothing else, it helps makes things a bit more dramatic

And sure, Riko's breaking of the promise may have neither been intentional or against the original spirit of the promise, but it nonetheless adds insult to injury for Kirino. It is just one more way in which she percieves she has been screwed over.

Also, don't worry about being cruel and inconsiderate towards Kirino - you aren't. The show itself is doing that. You are simply stating the truth. Kirino is simply going to have to deal with this, and the sooner the better. My problem is that I have seen plenty of begrieved bishoujos move on with their lives and become strong and independent after heartbreak. In fact, I have seen it done extremely well, for instance in Lamune. But unfortunately, the quality of writing and character depth in this show simply isn't up to snuff to make a development like that memorable. It is going to have to do more, although as I already said, I have no idea what.

[Skyfall]

You are right on that - from Kirino's pov it indeed might seem that Riko is stealing Haruhiko away and all the other crap that is happening to her is some sort of Riko's fault

I gues i can also see where you are coming from saying he is shoving Kirino aside too easily... but we will have to wait and see - maybe he is just controlling his emotions for the moment in order to make the situation work out for the best It certainly wouldn't help if he as well would act all angsty upon it... maybe he will let us in to his thoughts about the sitation regarding Kirino later at some point ... perhaps while talking to Riko... tho this is unlikely to happen

Yes, it would indeed be painful to break a long-term friendship this way in most cases... tho not allways if some conditions are met.(speeking from experience here). Lets say that he might feel angry towards Kirino for lashing out at Riko(for things that are not Riko's fault at all)... in this case he wouldn't feel sorry for her. (at least not at that specific moment). And as for it being OOC for Haruhiko... i am not sure... he has never shown a great deal of concern toards Kirino (wether this speaks good or bad of him), so i don't know...

Oh well, we will just have to wait and see where this goes

[npal]

Originally Posted by Kefit

I think you are missing my point.

Haruhiko is doing nothing wrong. He is doing the healthy thing by shoving Kirino away. But I don't understand how he does it so easily. He has been close friends with this girl for years, and breaking apart friendships like this is painful. This is a problem with the writing and character consistency, not a moral judgement of Haruhiko's actions.

And I already stated that my use of phrasing like "Riko stole Haruhiko from Kirino" was to better reflect Kirino's perspective of the situation. All of the crap is hitting her, so it only makes sense to look at the crap from her perspective. If nothing else, it helps makes things a bit more dramatic

And sure, Riko's breaking of the promise may have neither been intentional or against the original spirit of the promise, but it nonetheless adds insult to injury for Kirino. It is just one more way in which she percieves she has been screwed over.

Also, don't worry about being cruel and inconsiderate towards Kirino - you aren't. The show itself is doing that. You are simply stating the truth. Kirino is simply going to have to deal with this, and the sooner the better. My problem is that I have seen plenty of begrieved bishoujos move on with their lives and become strong and independent after heartbreak. In fact, I have seen it done extremely well, for instance in Lamune. But unfortunately, the quality of writing and character depth in this show simply isn't up to snuff to make a development like that memorable. It is going to have to do more, although as I already said, I have no idea what.

*nod nod

And that was my main point, the characters are not developed properly. I mean, DaCapo had put more thought to that. Although I had some gripes here and there about Sakura's resolution, it made sense. Aisia's case made much more sense but she wasn't actually the third party in the relationship so that doesn't count that much. Kotori had it pretty simple, not the huge investment of a childhood friend. Now, seeing as the company CAN have good writers, they might as well use them in this series, too.

And speaking of Lamune, the girl in question was able to be friends with the guy for a really short while, so yes, I considered the tearful resolution believable, although it was pretty sad.

The case with Gift is that they have pushed a character too far, the stakes are very high from Kirino's point, and Haruhiko, while doing one of the few things he can do, doesn't do much to help (hmm... I've seen that before... although he's fundamentally different from someone else I remember). Now, THAT approach could have helped in the past indeed, and there wouldn't be a problem now, but it's too little, too late and at the worst possible moment, so YES, the least I expect-and want to see- is a *very* serious outburst or some degree of chronic (maybe outright major, maybe not) depression (depends on the personality involved). I say the least, and I believe those are pretty healthy, considering the homo- or suicidal and vengeful alternatives I can think of. Yes, I think it's close to impossible for someone in Kirino's case to just rise up and take the challenge with little ill effects whatsoever. In Lamune's case, that girl may have had her share of psychopathological symptoms before getting to where she was at the end of the series.

So all in all, the series has to let go of its miraculous happiness theme and take a plunge to the reality of human psychology. I mean, they're doing it great with Haruhiko, he's in love, he's blind to everything else, he got his feelings returned finally so he's inconsiderate to anything not related to that, he's a f****ng bastard if you ask me, but yes, it happens and even if someone informs you that you're hurting people, you may not care. Haruhiko dropping Kirino so easily is not unheard of. Friendships, even old ones, that conflict with your current state can go down the drain easily (depends on the person), so I'm not really surprised, although I still think he's a jerk for that