Ore no Imouto (Season Two) - Episode 14-16 [Series End] Discussion / Poll

[finalfury]

Originally Posted by Obelisk ze Tormentor

Dude, the answer is as obvious as it is simple: Yosuga no Sora has steamy sex-scene .

Kidding aside, I think that's coz YnS took the incest-issue juuust a little bit more seriously with more bitter consequences (not to mention Koi Kaze). in OreImo (the anime at least), it all seems like roses and rainbow for our lover-siblings.

Nah, it's the whole twincest=wincest that gave Yosuga no Sora its awesomeness (I hated it for what it's worth tho).

[Black Phoenix]

Originally Posted by philip72

Now, how many siblings do you know or have heard of that had a reciprocal sexual relationship? Probably none.

I know a case. They live together, in another country, for everyone in that country were no one knows them. They are like normal man and woman.

They are not married. They adopted a child instead of trying to have their own one.

They had changed name and nationality.

They fully know what they are doing, both are mature, both made the choice, both live with that choice. They know the implications that everything may have if they are found. But still they prefer to take the risk.

They are mental sick? I don't think so, in that case you also say that a homo is sick of his head just because he choose to have a relation with someone of the same sex.

It was right in terms of society? I can't give a answer to that, it depends. At the beginning, everyone learns by imitation. After some years, your own likes and dislikes take place and you start to doing your own choices. They have done theirs, they are happy with that, no one has to point them a finger in their way.

Their choices are for them, the only one that they have to justify is themselves, not anyone more!

[Wilshere]

Originally Posted by Obelisk ze Tormentor

Dude, the answer is as obvious as it is simple: Yosuga no Sora has steamy sex-scene .

Kidding aside, I think that's coz YnS took the incest-issue juuust a little bit more seriously with more bitter consequences (not to mention Koi Kaze). In OreImo (the anime at least), it all seems like roses and rainbow for our lover-siblings.

If you ask me, I think its because of the real incest that happened and the sex scenes of course. If people are that against incest, why is Oreimo receiving all this hate where it clearly had nothing dirty in it? The worst thing they have done is a simple kiss,really. Although its not normal but I thought its was heartwarming. Its not about lust, just love.

[Sakuratsuki]

Originally Posted by Wilshere

If you ask me, I think its because of the real incest that happened and the sex scenes of course. If people are that against incest, why is Oreimo receiving all this hate where it clearly had nothing dirty in it? The worst thing they have done is a simple kiss,really. Although its not normal but I thought its was heartwarming. Its not about lust, just love.

I agree with you Wilshere. I also can't understand the hate for Oreimo.

[kentasaiba]

All people who can't unterstand Oreimo probably watched Twillight.

[chaosprophet]

Originally Posted by Obelisk ze Tormentor

Kidding aside, I think that's coz YnS took the incest-issue juuust a little bit more seriously with more bitter consequences (not to mention Koi Kaze). In OreImo (the anime at least), it all seems like roses and rainbow for our lover-siblings.

In one way it took more seriously, showing they getting discovered and the consequences of that. But in another way it took it less seriously, with Sora don't really giving a damn about the possible consequences and her brother just going with the flow, which was a reason they got caught, as there was no caution.

It was the fact that Kirino was conscious about the view of society and it's consequences that she had that much trouble to accept and convey her feelings. The same case with Kyosuke, for a long time he kept telling himself everything he did was just because they were siblings because his mind just couldn't accept he could have romantic feelings for his sister.

So in a way, YnS was more serious regarding the afterwards, the consequences, while Oreimo was more serious about the before, accepting that love.

And Yns being more acceptable may also be because it has routes, one could just ignore the routes he want. It It was easy to see that at least one story would be the incest route, so those who think incest is detestable even on fiction wouldn't even watch it.

[Kanon]

Originally Posted by Wilshere

Why does Yosuga no Sora seem more acceptable to people than Oreimo?

For one, it's better written as a whole. Secondly, Sora and Haru didn't spend all of their childhood together thus making it more believable they developed a sexual attraction for each other. Thirdly, the show treats the subject of incest a lot more seriously. And finally, Sora isn't a bitch, but this part is subjective.

Originally Posted by Sakura_Tsuki

I agree with you Wilshere. I also can't understand the hate for Oreimo.

Oreimo is very mainstream, so obviously, it garners a lot of hate.

Personally, I think the real issue isn't so much the incest as it is Kirino herself. This place seems like a haven for Kirino fans so you may not have noticed, but she is hated by tons of people. Naturally, these people can't understand this ending especially since the build-up to it was pretty bad.

[Kakurin]

Originally Posted by Kanon

Personally, I think the real issue isn't so much the incest as it is Kirino herself. This place seems like a haven for Kirino fans so you may not have noticed, but she is hated by tons of people. Naturally, these people can't understand this ending especially since the build-up to it was pretty bad.

Well, I guess, by the number of flame posts here after the ending came out, it would have been pretty impossible not to notice. As for the supposedly bad build-up, I guess this is depending on subjective opinions. Kuroneko-shippers and others see it as bad build-up, Kirino-shippers see no problem. But for a rather unbiased opinion I think relentlessflame has captured it best. Not that it changes your views at all.

And last but not least, saying this for the n-th time. Kirino's reputation is hurt by the show getting told out of the perspective of Kyousuke. She behaves extreme tsundere mainly only to him. More importantly, that especially in the first few episodes, where many people form their opinion about a character that appears a lot. Many of these people are not willing to reconsider, no matter what Kirino does afterwards. Kirino is mirroring the show in the approach needed to understand her. Whoever only looks primarily at the surface thinks Kirino's only bitching around and does nothing for the benefit of others and the show itself is poorly written, illogical etc. That's also why Kuroneko is garnering so much popularity. She is easy to like, all her good sides are shown right on the surface. Her popularity would be far different, if the show only shows her rude and anti-social part.

[Obelisk ze Tormentor]

Oh, I forgot to address this comment:

Originally Posted by ExXentriK

You seem to insist a lot on the sexual aspect of an incestual relationship. Don't forget that this has absolutely NOTHING to do with Oreimo. The relationship between Kirino and Kyousuke is purely based on love, there has been no mention of sexual desire one for the other. If you want to compare the events of Oreimo with real life(which is quite innapropriate considering how unrealistic Anime usually are) please stick to the actual themes dealt within the work.

Yeah right, Kyo staring (dare I say with a bit of lust) at Kirino’s body when she was (pretending) sleeping beside him and then poking her breast absolutely does not involve any kind of sexual desire even just a little bit . Mate, I want to believe , but saying there’s no sexual desire whatsoever from Kyo to Kirino (or vice versa) is a bit naive don’t you think? Not to mention the show itself admits that Kyo indeed has sexual desire for her (even if it’s just a little bit) by showing us the the scene I mentioned above among others.

[Marcus H.]

Maybe Kirino had this number of haters because her "suffering" was too subtle. Or that because she's a bitch to Kyousuke and Kyousuke ultimately fell in love with said bitch.

I really wanted to know what happened to the Kyousuke who seemed head-over-heels for Ruri.
Did Kirino perform an exorcism to yank that part of Kyousuke out?

I still can't persuade myself to watch the last three episodes. It's like suffering from a tolerable sickness and the only thing standing between me and a clean bill of health is a bottle of utterly bitter medicine.

[finalfury]

Originally Posted by Marcus H.

I still can't persuade myself to watch the last three episodes. It's like suffering from a tolerable sickness and the only thing standing between me and a clean bill of health is a bottle of utterly bitter medicine.

I think I can understand how you feel. It took me about 3 hours to watch the OVA's(I needed breaks every 5-10 minutes) but what I did to prepare for it was play Dark Souls for a couple of hours and die like 50-60 times so I was able to endure it.

[relentlessflame]

Originally Posted by Marcus H.

I really wanted to know what happened to the Kyousuke who seemed head-over-heels for Ruri.
Did Kirino perform an exorcism to yank that part of Kyousuke out?

I actually think this has basically been the same theme from the get-go. You'll recall that Kuroneko chided him in the first season (true route) for using her as a replacement for Kirino, which is what led to him chasing after Kirino and "confessing" to her the first time. Then, in the second season, he had to clearly get Kirino's permission before he even considered going out with Kuroneko; after he found out how Kirino really felt about it he resolved that he couldn't date Kuroneko unless Kirino was okay with it. That isn't to say he never had any feelings for Kuroneko at all, or that the pain of the breakup wasn't real. But, the recurring theme was that Kirino came first in his heart, and it was on that basis that he made his final decision. (With the further evidence being how much being reunited with Kirino was a motivation when he got kicked out of the house.) It's thus no surprise that his second "confession" was a mirror of the first: "without you, I'm so lonely I might die" to "don't leave; marry me" (i.e. be by my side 'till death do us part). I think that, when you consider the work on the whole, the recurring pattern throughout is the transition from Kyousuke thinking that he hated Kirino to his realizing that he loved her, and just what that meant. Kuroneko's primary role in the narrative is essentially to help Kyousuke and Kirino be honest with each other and finally expose their true feelings.

(By the same token, I do think that if Kuroneko had backed down from her plan and not forced Kirino into action, there's a good chance she could have kept progressing her relationship with Kyousuke to the point that she could have overtaken Kirino in his heart. But, that being said, that had never been her style from the start. Her theme had always been "I love you as much as your sister does".)

[Marcus H.]

That makes me a bit angry towards Kirino, and Ruri as well, although it was more of disappointment on Ruri's part.

Kirino was the kind of person who, through enough effort, was able to make things go her way... which teetered into "ruining one's immersion". This is probably the reason why I felt really repulsed towards Kirino. Yeah, she is cute, but seeing her as a person, she felt like the sun that all of the other characters revolve on [Kyousuke loves her very much by the end, Ayase obsesses over her to the point of yandereism, Kuroneko loves Kyousuke as much as Kirino, Saori treasures her a lot, she gets lots of love from her parents and friends, etc.]

As a potential viewer, I felt, "What's the point of seeing this story if it only involves Kirino always getting what she wanted?" Maybe the anime series focused too much on her overall success and failed to counterbalance it with obvious struggles that would really shake her to the core. (Well, this is a light-hearted romantic comedy in the first place so my demands would have been too serious for its apparent genre.)

On the other hand, Ruri's tragedy really shows her masochistic tendencies. I really hated how she tries to shove herself into Kyousuke's heart even though she already knows that Kirino has occupied most of it. Maybe Kyousuke was right: "[She] was too good for [him]." She should have moved on if she cannot truly live a life with the Kousaka siblings without hurting herself in the process.

This is probably the first romantic anime series wherein I was completely not contented with the ending. I handled the development of romance in Gosick and Toradora, but certainly not this one.

[relentlessflame]

Originally Posted by Marcus H.

As a potential viewer, I felt, "What's the point of seeing this story if it only involves Kirino always getting what she wanted?" Maybe the anime series focused too much on her overall success and failed to counterbalance it with obvious struggles that would really shake her to the core.

I think that this was actually one of the main themes of the second season, but it's counterbalanced by being told from Kyousuke's perspective most of the time. The season starts with her coming back home tail between her legs having to apologize to everyone for a) neglecting to talk to them for months, and b) failing to bring home any substantial results consistent with the trust placed in her. From her perspective, that was a very humbling experience. When you see it from Kyousuke's perspective, though, he doesn't seem to fully appreciate what she's going through. This also comes up again when she loses her rematch with Ria. Then the story transitions into dealing with Kirino and Kyousuke's jealousy for each other, and Kirino has to come to terms with the fact that she can't keep a grip on Kyousuke forever. First she acts this out through a bit of a jealous fit (the fake boyfriend act), and then she tries to accept it by allowing him to go out with her best friend (even though she also dislikes it). She swallows her feelings enough in this process to help Kyousuke chase after the girl he said he loved, not having any pretence that it would resolve in any way other than the two of them getting back together. Then, Kyousuke gets kicked out of the house again, and she again realizes that he's on the threshold of moving on with his life, and she may need to do so as well -- hence her plan to go overseas again, and this time go "for real". This is all put into context with Episode 13, which completes the picture about how far back her unrequited -- and in her mind impossible - love goes.

Is this supposed to all offset whatever wrongs some felt she did in the first season? No, not really, particularly because she still acts like something of a spoiled brat -- something which even she admits. But, by the same token, it's not as though everything really does go her way. Kyousuke just perceives it that way at first because he's jealous of her talent and the story is told mostly from his perspective. The second season shifts Kyousuke's view on Kirino towards seeing her as a passionate hard-worker who he wants to cheer for, as opposed to simply a spoiled brat who always gets her way somehow.

Originally Posted by Marcus H.

On the other hand, Ruri's tragedy really shows her masochistic tendencies. I really hated how she tries to shove herself into Kyousuke's heart even though she already knows that Kirino has occupied most of it. Maybe Kyousuke was right: "[She] was too good for [him]." She should have moved on if she cannot truly live a life with the Kousaka siblings without hurting herself in the process.

I don't know that she's a "masochist" as much as a naive idealist who was also a moth drawn to flame. At first, I think she underestimated just how deep her feelings for Kyousuke went when she thought she could do all the play-date and end with a breakup for Kirino's sake. It wasn't until the last second that she finally clued in that she didn't want to let go, but she had already set her plan into motion.

In the end, being a teenager is about being hurt and hurting others, and I don't think she can really be faulted for her naivety. Just like her chuunibyou delusions, she'll eventually grow up as a result of all this and find a happy place, I think.

[Marcus H.]

I think that this was actually one of the main themes of the second season, but it's counterbalanced by being told from Kyousuke's perspective most of the time. The season starts with her coming back home tail between her legs having to apologize to everyone for a) neglecting to talk to them for months, and b) failing to bring home any substantial results consistent with the trust placed in her. From her perspective, that was a very humbling experience. When you see it from Kyousuke's perspective, though, he doesn't seem to fully appreciate what she's going through. This also comes up again when she loses her rematch with Ria. Then the story transitions into dealing with Kirino and Kyousuke's jealousy for each other, and Kirino has to come to terms with the fact that she can't keep a grip on Kyousuke forever. First she acts this out through a bit of a jealous fit (the fake boyfriend act), and then she tries to accept it by allowing him to go out with her best friend (even though she also dislikes it). She swallows her feelings enough in this process to help Kyousuke chase after the girl he said he loved, not having any pretence that it would resolve in any way other than the two of them getting back together. Then, Kyousuke gets kicked out of the house again, and she again realizes that he's on the threshold of moving on with his life, and she may need to do so as well -- hence her plan to go overseas again, and this time go "for real". This is all put into context with Episode 13, which completes the picture about how far back her unrequited -- and in her mind impossible - love goes.

Is this supposed to all offset whatever wrongs some felt she did in the first season? No, not really, particularly because she still acts like something of a spoiled brat -- something which even she admits. But, by the same token, it's not as though everything really does go her way. Kyousuke just perceives it that way at first because he's jealous of her talent and the story is told mostly from his perspective. The second season shifts Kyousuke's view on Kirino towards seeing her as a passionate hard-worker who he wants to cheer for, as opposed to simply a spoiled brat who always gets her way somehow.

I pretty much agree with your insights on the Season 1 ONAs and Season 2, but I feel that the "it's not as though everything really does go her way" relied too much on subtlety, which is really difficult to read amongst the less subtle aspects of the series. It's like in the Bleach manga series: many people think that the story of Bleach is stupid, but there are very few people who was able to pick up even the most miniscule plot details that actually gave Kubo Tite some credit rather than call him a "mangaka known only for not drawing backgrounds".

I admit, all I saw throughout the series was Kirino winning in a lot of aspects in life. It felt like "winning the Oreimo" was too easy for Kirino. I wanted a greater challenge to their relationships rather than those "excuses for romantic competitors". I mean everyone else got demolished within the span of THREE EPISODES! That rejection spree continues to piss me to no end.

Both Toradora and Gosick are light novel series that are told in an omniscient third-person view instead of Kyousuke's first-person POV narrative that made up most of the light novel series. I wonder how my impressions of this series would have been if Kyousuke was replaced by a neutral narrator that is able to tell the story without the bias and nuances carried by telling the story in his point of view.

In the end, being a teenager is about being hurt and hurting others, and I don't think she can really be faulted for her naivety. Just like her chuunibyou delusions, she'll eventually grow up as a result of all this and find a happy place, I think.

Just as long as she doesn't consider trying to win over Kyousuke, it's okay for me.

[jrod]

I admit, all I saw throughout the series was Kirino winning in a lot of aspects in life. It felt like "winning the Oreimo" was too easy for Kirino. I wanted a greater challenge to their relationships rather than those "excuses for romantic competitors". I mean everyone else got demolished within the span of THREE EPISODES! That rejection spree continues to piss me to no end.

Although from the POV of viewers and Kirino, the challengers seem to be the "The Best Friends" and the "Childhood Friend", the real BOSS is actually herself.

At least from my POV, it was defintely not easy for Kirino and Kyousuke to come to terms with their own feelings; Kirino has to hide away her feelings for her Bro because she knows that it is not acceptable and according to Manami, her feelings will hurt everybody including her Bro if Kirino allows her "weird" feelings to escalate further as she grows up. As revealed in her iPod recordings, she was lost and was really struggling as she attempted to seek answers from her future self.

I personally feel she acted "Tsun" to her Bro has alot to do with rejecting her own weird feelings and keeping a distance from her Bro, in order to not that feeling escalate further.

[relentlessflame]

Originally Posted by Marcus H.

It felt like "winning the Oreimo" was too easy for Kirino. I wanted a greater challenge to their relationships rather than those "excuses for romantic competitors". I mean everyone else got demolished within the span of THREE EPISODES! That rejection spree continues to piss me to no end.

Well, the only reason it has to be written that way in my view is because of the compromise at the very end. If this had been any other case, the protagonist could have just confessed to any of the girls, and seeing them all get rejected would not have been necessary -- it would have gone unspoken once they found out, and you might have seen them move on. But the author had to deal with your next comment:

Originally Posted by Marcus H.

Just as long as she doesn't consider trying to win over Kyousuke, it's okay for me.

If they didn't show her painful rejection and the story ended the way it did, you could say the ending is "the romantic battle for Kyousuke's heart is back on again", and it really would have been an open ending. As I've said before, ending the story this way seems to be mostly about creating "no escape routes".

I'm not trying to say this explanation makes it easier to stomach seeing it go down, but at least I think it explains why it was written this way. (I think I would have preferred if the anime has excised some of the other "candidates" from the "running" given the huge time constraints, but the desire to give something to please the fans of those characters appears to have been given priority. I can understand that point too, but it makes the anime a bit less accessible for those who haven't already read the books.)


But, I would always say this: this was never really a story about who would "win the OreImo" in that sense; it was only ever really a story about Kyousuke and Kirino rekindling their relationship. The story at the end was going to go one of two ways: Kirino has her love requited (Kirino "True End"?), or Kirino's love goes unrequited and she has to accept it and move on (Kirino "Good End"/"Normal End"?). Either way, the bulk of whatever was going to happen at the end of the story was always really going to be about Kirino, even (and particularly) if he had chosen another romantic partner. And I guess maybe in that sense you could say that it seemed too easy; she remains at the center of the narrative through thick and thin because it's always about her quite literally. And if you never really got over a dislike for her, and felt like she always "got her way" (though they did show that she didn't), I suppose seeing her feelings "rewarded" in the end may be more difficult to appreciate. In the end, she's unavoidably a bratty, selfish little sister, and if you're the sort of view who tries to place yourself in the protagonist's shoes, it's not hard to imagine that many other people would have made different choices. By the same token, I do understand why this was a logical destination for Kyousuke given the journey he took as a character.

[Marcus H.]

(I think I would have preferred if the anime has excised some of the other "candidates" from the "running" given the huge time constraints, but the desire to give something to please the fans of those characters appears to have been given priority. I can understand that point too, but it makes the anime a bit less accessible for those who haven't already read the books.)

I think the complete opposite was what happened. I mean, who would have liked how Kanako's character got butchered with that completely unrealistic (I assume that the author did not do his research about the idol industry and the impact of a significant other in an idol's career) admission of feelings during her concert. And of course, those who had supported Ruri, Ayase and Manami would have been pissed at the course of the story in the three-episode finale (although Manami fans would have rejoiced at that "ultimate punch of retribution" ).

Anyway, I continue to wonder why I did not like Oreimo even though I absolutely loved Yosuga no Sora's story (in an incest standpoint) and the romance in a lot of the anime series I have watched like in the aforementioned Gosick and Toradora light novel series-turned-anime. (Maybe the only love story that I hated was that of Suzuka. Damn, was Suzuka a complete bitch!) Probably it was Kirino's fault, but it can't be certain that she's the only one at fault.

[Kakurin]

Originally Posted by Marcus H.

I think the complete opposite was what happened. I mean, who would have liked how Kanako's character got butchered with that completely unrealistic (I assume that the author did not do his research about the idol industry and the impact of a significant other in an idol's career) admission of feelings during her concert. And of course, those who had supported Ruri, Ayase and Manami would have been pissed at the course of the story in the three-episode finale (although Manami fans would have rejoiced at that "ultimate punch of retribution" ).

I think relentlessflame meant in terms of appearance. The anime staff could have avoided heartbreak of the fans of Kanako / Ayase (and Kyousuke looking like a jerk in the eyes of some, if not many) by really pushing them to the background. Meaning completely take them out of the circle of people loving Kyousuke. But for popularity / promotion / plot reasons they decided against it. This especially is true for Ayase, where they forced in that Episode 2, giving a supporting character so much spotlight, that her fans' expectations got pushed.

Anyway, I continue to wonder why I did not like Oreimo even though I absolutely loved Yosuga no Sora's story (in an incest standpoint) and the romance in a lot of the anime series I have watched like in the aforementioned Gosick and Toradora light novel series-turned-anime. (Maybe the only love story that I hated was that of Suzuka. Damn, was Suzuka a complete bitch!) Probably it was Kirino's fault, but it can't be certain that she's the only one at fault.

I think much of it comes down to Kirino. Kirino, for the lack of a word, is a polarizing character. If one does not like looking out for the subtle aspects and hints, it is easy to miss her struggles and her good sides, leading to many people just having massive problems with her. Seeing her then get the "good" ending, is probably too much. Concerning these subtle aspects, Oreimo as a show really comes down to paying close attention to those. That's why re-reading and re-watching can give some new perspectives and also realisations to the audience (although people not liking the series probably won't do that). Last but not least, the anime suffers from time constraints and some questionable staff decisions concerning the plot. That's why it would be helpful to read the novel.

@relentlessflame: Thanks for pointing out the obvious parallel between the first "confession" and the second one. I had completely forgotten about that connection.

[NoemiChan]

Originally Posted by Wilshere

Why does Yosuga no Sora seem more acceptable to people than Oreimo?

Yosuga no Sora was based on an Eroge ( I may be wrong) so we could have expected that the adaptation will be ecchi or at least romance with some zest of ecchi. And looked what we've got... Tons of vanilla sex. Awesome yeah!

Look at Oreimo... well I don't mind Oreimo having an incest ending (even with sex) but it's an adaptation of a "supposedly decent or wholesome" novel... I think the main reason why some are against incest for Oreimo is because of the shipping wars...