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Duo Maxwell · 2013-01-02, 06:14

I thought we're done for when almost no one went for the hill, except me and another ARL 39. I love how only 2 of us managed to hold of another 8 tanks just because the enemy is chickened out after the Cromwell died instantly the moment he shown up before me and that ARL 39.

Spoiler for Size:

Myssa Rei · 2013-01-02, 06:26

Cripes, that's a lot of crewmen for the M6. The last time that happened to me was when I still had the Lee. XD

Traece · 2013-01-02, 06:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Duo Maxwell

Huh?

Churchill III is the premium one, right? Are you talking about Churchill I?

I... Might be, actually. The premium Churchill is terrible though. I get a good chuckle out of seeing them used since they generally just get stomped.

Quote:

Originally Posted by LoweGear

Speaking of Churchills, I hear all this whining about the Churchill VII being a bad tank... then I look at my Elite Churchill VII with Ace Tanker badge and 60% win rate and go "what are they talking about?".

I've pulled off some insane stuff in my Churchill. My best moment was when I killed half of the enemy team largely on my own. It was kind of a reckless and "screw it I don't even care" moment where I somehow managed to miss the enemy team and get behind them, and then a bunch of people kept trying to take me on and ended up just getting decimated.

Quote:

Originally Posted by LoweGear

If you can take full advantage of the Churchill VII's thick armor and resign yourself to the fact that you're gonna be slow as molasses, then it's a very good tank for pushing a breakthrough with your armor, or, when in high-tier battles, as a second-line support unit using the fast-firing 76mm to ping enemy weakspots and track them. Also, abusing your tracks' ability to take damage to complement your armor.

I've had more Steel Walls with my Churchill VII than with any other tank save the T29. The Churchill VII's slowness also helps it in a way most people don't really realize: since you get to the front line later, most enemies already have other tanks in their sights, so you can have the pick of the litter of distracted enemies to kill (this is true of many slow tanks).

I've heard sidescraping works well for the Churchills, though I'm not well-practiced on that maneuver.

People really like to hit the Churchill in the tracks because it's a "side shot," but often don't realize that the Churchill actually has decent armor there and takes a lot of tracks instead of actual damage. I find myself often stuck in situations where I'm tracked and being shot at by sometimes a sizable portion of the enemy team (and in high tiers even), but I'm just sitting there bouncing and being undamaged by almost every single shot whilst casually pinging rounds into them. My average shots only do ~190 or so, but the firing rate on the best guns you get are pretty good and they penetrate nicely a lot of the time so it starts to add up.

I find it to be a somewhat balanced tank, save for the slow speed. It dishes out average damage with good penetration, and it has good armor and hitpoints to make up for its lack of speed. Honestly, I thought a lot of the British tanks up the heavy tree were really fun to play and I got a serious kick out of playing every one of them.

Duo Maxwell · 2013-01-02, 06:47

In other words, shoot the Church VII at its face and its back? I didn't think about it since the front has whooping 152mm armor, which most of US tank has trouble penetrating.

Traece · 2013-01-02, 07:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by Duo Maxwell

In other words, shoot the Church VII at its face and its back? I didn't think about it since the front has whooping 152mm armor, which most of US tank has trouble penetrating.

You can side shot pretty nicely and get some damage, but a lot of people track me and fail to do much. A lot of people like to side-face the Churchill so they can nail it in the side, but all they're really doing is exposing themselves and getting overconfident. In fact, the Churchill's best weapon is the fact that people seem to get really stupid when they're trying to kill it because of the way they underestimate how good it can be.

I don't look into weakpoints. I feel like it's cheating, and it's just not as fun for me. My general guide to weakpoints is: Side, turret side, the joining of the turret and the body (it seems to work, strangely enough!), rear, and any location on any non-heavy American tank because Shermans and anything that uses the Sherman chassis is a complete piece of crap. For the Churchill VII, non-upgraded turrets can be a bit weak, as well as the rear armor (especially at the radiator on top, which I've actually set a Church on fire with rather hilariously), and the side armor as long as you're shooting perpendicular and you aim for the middle and upper areas (away from the track, to try and avoid hitting it). If you try to hit the Churchill on its front armor though, be prepared to not do anything.

I'm sure half that crap doesn't even work, but I feel like it does. :P

Ascaloth · 2013-01-02, 07:24

Erm, no. The front armour of the Churchill series don't count for much; I should know, I run the LL Churchill all the time, and I always get a kick out of putting round after round of the 6 pdr right through the front of Churchill Is and penning every time.

With the Churchill series, it's typically sidescrape or bust. I don't know how the Black Prince does in that regard... but thus far, it's been true for the LL Church, it was true for the Church I, and I've found it still holds true for the Church VII.

willx · 2013-01-02, 09:35

Re: Churchill VII --

Lowe's 60% win rate on the Churchill VII should be commended, but I still stand by my belief that it's a broken tank.

I agree with Ascaloth that the best maneuver on any of the Churchills (I, III, VII and Black Prince) is the sidescrape maneuver, no doubt about it .. That said though, the sidescrape opens you up to more pain when getting flanked than a peekaboo would .. which is highly likely when you play in pub matches without dependable platoon mates.

How the Church VII is particularly bad is what I believe to be a flaw in the model design for hitzones when it comes to its track. As anyone who's played the Churchill I & III or the ARL series, extended tracks means you get tracked a lot, but the benefit of that is you don't take damage on a pure track shot, which is typically coming from the front. That's part of the benefit of the sidescrape (in addition to the high angle on the side armor) and can also be used for baiting a shot with your track for no damage, hitting the repair pack (or 100% repair skill) and then firing into their hull while they reload. This cannot be done with the Church VII. Damage to the mudguard armor on the tracks will often do full damage to the rest of the tank. Extending your tracks out for a peekaboo is showing damageable hitboxes. There are numerous forum posts about this topic. The Church I, III or Black Prince do not suffer from this.

Duo Maxwell · 2013-01-02, 10:07

Erm....I'm not too familiar with those terms. What is a sidescrape maneuver?

Sumeragi · 2013-01-02, 10:09

T-25 Buyer's Guide

The T-25 is the training tank for the German Mediums. It's elegant in a hardy way, as if a rock was chiseled into a tank.

Mobility: It's fast with a top speed of 60km/h. It might not be as accelerating as a sports car, and not as agile (with the turret turn being slow), but its decent speed and acceleration allows it to reposition quickly. At the same time, it has an unexpected advantage: It has one of the fastest reverse speed, meaning you have the option of tactical retreat while shooting back.

Firepower: Good penetration, decent damage, sufficient rate of fire (might want to have the rammer though), amazing gun depression. The only problem is the relatively poor aim time for a German tank, so get a gun laying drive. Otherwise, the gun is the basic standard of German guns: Accurate enough for you to snipe from a stand-off position.

Armor: Thin but heavily sloped, with some odd angles. You can get a few lucky bounces, but rely on your large hitpoint pool (on par with a fully upgraded KV-1) and ability to fire and relocate.

Tactical Utility: In a way the T-25 is less agile Pz III/IV which has greater advantages coming from its higher penetrating gun, gun depression, and fast reverse speed. You can hull-down and peek-a-boo over hills with little problem, and combined with your gun you can sting the enemy to death. It's a good tank for training oneself up the Panther line.

willx · 2013-01-02, 10:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by Duo Maxwell

Erm....I'm not too familiar with those terms. What is a sidescrape maneuver?

Tak · 2013-01-02, 12:03

I really love my T-25 and my RAM-II. They are the tanks I use to earn credit when I need to refill my supplies for the expensive Tiger & IS shells.

Sume already described the T-25, but then there is also the RAM-II, which is a sweet little thing with a very fast gun. Both tanks can dish out considerable damage to anything its tier & below. I especially love to use the RAM-II to circle around a KV-I while withering it down with my rapid firing weapon. Quite the ire of some heavy tank players...

- Tak

Blaat · 2013-01-02, 15:18

I got the Mastery badge on my Panzer IV today.

I'm also thinking of going deeper with T-34, M4 and PzIV but I'm not sure if the later Russian and American medium tanks series (T-series and Pershing/Patton) are worth the effort same with the Germany heavy tanks. What you do guys think?

willx · 2013-01-02, 15:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blaat

I got the Mastery badge on my Panzer IV today.

I'm also thinking of going deeper with T-34, M4 and PzIV but I'm not sure if the later Russian and American medium tanks series (T-series and Pershing/Patton) are worth the effort same with the Germany heavy tanks. What you do guys think?

Depends what you're looking for and how you play your PzIV. Most of us here play the German tech tree, either to start or near exclusively, and most of the vehicles excel when following the medium-to-long range sniper doctrine. The American and Russian tanks are generally much better at brawling, with the U.S. tanks especially good at hull-down tactics. The Russians are all about ALPHA .. ALPHA ALPHA ALPHA .. all day every day. All of this said, there are exceptions to every rule, so there are exceptions in every tech tree.

Now, I'm a "theorycraft"er and absolute geek when it comes to mechanics and info dumps .. and I recently spotted this thread: http://forum.worldoftanks.com/index....g-vs-brawling/

Going through WoT's battle mechanics again has gotten me thinking about XP distribution and the benefits about long range and close range fighting. It seems being great/good at close range brawling against enemies you spot yourself is the fastest way to build up XP and credits! This might not be news to people but it was a definite reminder for me!

Blaat · 2013-01-02, 15:54

I prefer to brawl myself, I even play my Pz IV as a brawler. I occasionally snipe, when convenient or necessary.

The problem I'm having with the later medium tanks is their paper thin armour and what appears to be lack of a good gun.

In other news I turned off the assault game mode, most assault mode maps are awful.

Gravitas Free Zone · 2013-01-02, 15:56

I'm much happier in tanks that can hull-down, but most German tanks are terrible at that. The T-25 is actually okay at it, though.

The Panther... argh, tiers where losses cost a lot of money and you can't make it up by doing damage because I'm still over 10000 XP to the final gun... I suppose I could do another elite gold XP transfer, but... money.

aly_angelflight · 2013-01-02, 16:22

I started way too far ahead of my team in my RenaultBS that last match. If I didn't move, I'd be the first (and for a while, only) tank the enemy would run into running down the right flank.

But oh well, we took the match by a landslide. Only one of us was actually killed, and the other one who died... well, he dove into the water with an enemy tank.

Strigon 13 · 2013-01-02, 16:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Endless Knackwurst

The Panther... argh, tiers where losses cost a lot of money and you can't make it up by doing damage because I'm still over 10000 XP to the final gun... I suppose I could do another elite gold XP transfer, but... money.

The trick to don't loose a lot of money on the panther is to stick with the L70 (yes, it's ridiculous), or put the short 88 and use it as a flanker medium and ALWAYS stick with your heavies, or in other case with another type of medium on a platoon (KV-13, T-43, T20 are good choices).

Gravitas Free Zone · 2013-01-02, 16:42

Interesting........

Meanwhile, the premiums are making decent money. When I get a good Tier III game going, the Pz S35 is a hoot, the T-25 usually nets at least 4x of any repair costs even on a loss, the T-15 is good for my scout crews, the Churchill... is... big? But prints money.

Drake · 2013-01-02, 17:37

They are quite expensive though if you think about what your spending real money on.

I sold my T3E1 by accident when I was checking how much it was worth =/

Gravitas Free Zone · 2013-01-02, 17:48

So far WoT expenditures have not come close to what I spent on crate keys for TF2.

That's actually really terribly sad when I think about it.

I tried to use my Churchill to break the usual north hill logjam in El Halluf... uphill. This was going through my head at the time.

2013-01-02, 06:14	Link #1261
Duo Maxwell A Proud Lolicon Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: In front of my computer Age: 37	I thought we're done for when almost no one went for the hill, except me and another ARL 39. I love how only 2 of us managed to hold of another 8 tanks just because the enemy is chickened out after the Cromwell died instantly the moment he shown up before me and that ARL 39. Spoiler for Size: __________________

2013-01-02, 06:26	Link #1262
Myssa Rei Moderate Haruhiist Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Metro Manila, Philippines Age: 42	Cripes, that's a lot of crewmen for the M6. The last time that happened to me was when I still had the Lee. XD __________________

2013-01-02, 06:47	Link #1264
Duo Maxwell A Proud Lolicon Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: In front of my computer Age: 37	In other words, shoot the Church VII at its face and its back? I didn't think about it since the front has whooping 152mm armor, which most of US tank has trouble penetrating. __________________

2013-01-02, 09:35	Link #1267
willx Nyaaan~~ Join Date: Feb 2006 Age: 40	Re: Churchill VII -- Lowe's 60% win rate on the Churchill VII should be commended, but I still stand by my belief that it's a broken tank. I agree with Ascaloth that the best maneuver on any of the Churchills (I, III, VII and Black Prince) is the sidescrape maneuver, no doubt about it .. That said though, the sidescrape opens you up to more pain when getting flanked than a peekaboo would .. which is highly likely when you play in pub matches without dependable platoon mates. How the Church VII is particularly bad is what I believe to be a flaw in the model design for hitzones when it comes to its track. As anyone who's played the Churchill I & III or the ARL series, extended tracks means you get tracked a lot, but the benefit of that is you don't take damage on a pure track shot, which is typically coming from the front. That's part of the benefit of the sidescrape (in addition to the high angle on the side armor) and can also be used for baiting a shot with your track for no damage, hitting the repair pack (or 100% repair skill) and then firing into their hull while they reload. This cannot be done with the Church VII. Damage to the mudguard armor on the tracks will often do full damage to the rest of the tank. Extending your tracks out for a peekaboo is showing damageable hitboxes. There are numerous forum posts about this topic. The Church I, III or Black Prince do not suffer from this. __________________ Nyaaaan~~

2013-01-02, 10:07	Link #1268
Duo Maxwell A Proud Lolicon Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: In front of my computer Age: 37	Erm....I'm not too familiar with those terms. What is a sidescrape maneuver? __________________

2013-01-02, 07:24	Link #1266
Ascaloth I don't give a damn, dude Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: In Despair Age: 37	Erm, no. The front armour of the Churchill series don't count for much; I should know, I run the LL Churchill all the time, and I always get a kick out of putting round after round of the 6 pdr right through the front of Churchill Is and penning every time. With the Churchill series, it's typically sidescrape or bust. I don't know how the Black Prince does in that regard... but thus far, it's been true for the LL Church, it was true for the Church I, and I've found it still holds true for the Church VII.

2013-01-02, 10:09	Link #1269
Sumeragi Banned Join Date: Nov 2010 Location: Dai Korai Teikoku	T-25 Buyer's Guide The T-25 is the training tank for the German Mediums. It's elegant in a hardy way, as if a rock was chiseled into a tank. Mobility: It's fast with a top speed of 60km/h. It might not be as accelerating as a sports car, and not as agile (with the turret turn being slow), but its decent speed and acceleration allows it to reposition quickly. At the same time, it has an unexpected advantage: It has one of the fastest reverse speed, meaning you have the option of tactical retreat while shooting back. Firepower: Good penetration, decent damage, sufficient rate of fire (might want to have the rammer though), amazing gun depression. The only problem is the relatively poor aim time for a German tank, so get a gun laying drive. Otherwise, the gun is the basic standard of German guns: Accurate enough for you to snipe from a stand-off position. Armor: Thin but heavily sloped, with some odd angles. You can get a few lucky bounces, but rely on your large hitpoint pool (on par with a fully upgraded KV-1) and ability to fire and relocate. Tactical Utility: In a way the T-25 is less agile Pz III/IV which has greater advantages coming from its higher penetrating gun, gun depression, and fast reverse speed. You can hull-down and peek-a-boo over hills with little problem, and combined with your gun you can sting the enemy to death. It's a good tank for training oneself up the Panther line.

2013-01-02, 12:03	Link #1271
Tak Catholic = Cat addiction? Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: MURICA!!	I really love my T-25 and my RAM-II. They are the tanks I use to earn credit when I need to refill my supplies for the expensive Tiger & IS shells. Sume already described the T-25, but then there is also the RAM-II, which is a sweet little thing with a very fast gun. Both tanks can dish out considerable damage to anything its tier & below. I especially love to use the RAM-II to circle around a KV-I while withering it down with my rapid firing weapon. Quite the ire of some heavy tank players... - Tak __________________ BLESSED IS OUR GOD, THE LORD OF MIRACLES, FOR HE HAS SUPPLIED AN ENTIRE BATTALION WITH JUST FIVE ROUNDS OF AMMO AND TWO GRENADES!! Remember, the toes you step on today may be connected to the @ss you have to kiss tomorrow.

2013-01-02, 15:18	Link #1272
Blaat Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2004	I got the Mastery badge on my Panzer IV today. I'm also thinking of going deeper with T-34, M4 and PzIV but I'm not sure if the later Russian and American medium tanks series (T-series and Pershing/Patton) are worth the effort same with the Germany heavy tanks. What you do guys think? __________________ MyAnimeList

2013-01-02, 15:54	Link #1274
Blaat Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2004	I prefer to brawl myself, I even play my Pz IV as a brawler. I occasionally snipe, when convenient or necessary. The problem I'm having with the later medium tanks is their paper thin armour and what appears to be lack of a good gun. In other news I turned off the assault game mode, most assault mode maps are awful. __________________ MyAnimeList

2013-01-02, 15:56	Link #1275
Gravitas Free Zone Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2012	I'm much happier in tanks that can hull-down, but most German tanks are terrible at that. The T-25 is actually okay at it, though. The Panther... argh, tiers where losses cost a lot of money and you can't make it up by doing damage because I'm still over 10000 XP to the final gun... I suppose I could do another elite gold XP transfer, but... money.

2013-01-02, 16:22	Link #1276
aly_angelflight Member Join Date: Dec 2012	I started way too far ahead of my team in my RenaultBS that last match. If I didn't move, I'd be the first (and for a while, only) tank the enemy would run into running down the right flank. But oh well, we took the match by a landslide. Only one of us was actually killed, and the other one who died... well, he dove into the water with an enemy tank.

2013-01-02, 16:42	Link #1278
Gravitas Free Zone Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2012	Interesting........ Meanwhile, the premiums are making decent money. When I get a good Tier III game going, the Pz S35 is a hoot, the T-25 usually nets at least 4x of any repair costs even on a loss, the T-15 is good for my scout crews, the Churchill... is... big? But prints money.

2013-01-02, 17:37	Link #1279
Drake dn ʎɐʍ sıɥʇ Graphic Designer Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Northern Ireland	They are quite expensive though if you think about what your spending real money on. I sold my T3E1 by accident when I was checking how much it was worth =/ __________________

2013-01-02, 17:48	Link #1280
Gravitas Free Zone Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2012	So far WoT expenditures have not come close to what I spent on crate keys for TF2. That's actually really terribly sad when I think about it. I tried to use my Churchill to break the usual north hill logjam in El Halluf... uphill. This was going through my head at the time.