AnimeSuki Forums

Midrange · 2006-05-31, 17:16

[edit: argh, wrong thread. sorry. post removed]

Nvis · 2006-06-01, 01:58

I don't understand why Mion is carrying that gun around in public and for everyone to see. And no one mentions anything. Just what's up with that? Is it because she's the yakuza heir or something?

And when she stabbed Keiichi(hallucination?) with the knife, she could have made it simpler and just use her gun...

kj1980 · 2006-06-01, 02:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nvis

I don't understand why Mion is carrying that gun around in public and for everyone to see. And no one mentions anything. Just what's up with that? Is it because she's the yakuza heir or something?

And when she stabbed Keiichi(hallucination?) with the knife, she could have made it simpler and just use her gun...

It has already been discussed that the gun itself is insignificant. Being Mion's character, that can be more like a water pistol. Besides, guns are illegal in Japan, and no yakuza would be stupid enough to carry one around in public in plain view of the police.

LordAshram · 2006-06-01, 18:34

Well, she WAS holding it rather defensively in that scene at the beginning of ep 5... Could be a stungun or something.

kj1980 · 2006-06-01, 18:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by LordAshram

Well, she WAS holding it rather defensively in that scene at the beginning of ep 5... Could be a stungun or something.

That was already mentioned in the same thread as well:

http://forums.animesuki.com/showpost...0&postcount=39
http://forums.animesuki.com/showpost...2&postcount=59

Shall I put this in the Q&A section for references purposes as this question may pop up rather frequently?

FubaredByAnime · 2006-06-01, 19:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by kj1980

That was already mentioned in the same thread as well:

http://forums.animesuki.com/showpost...0&postcount=39
http://forums.animesuki.com/showpost...2&postcount=59

Shall I put this in the Q&A section for references purposes as this question may pop up rather frequently?

Might as well. You know it's going to keep popping up along with the "Why is the Na red?" and "How are all the stories connected?" questions. Though I have to admit, the gun topic is typically number 1 in popularity.

蜩の泣 · 2006-06-01, 23:46

I just have a question about the last frame.

Spoiler:

Circular Logic · 2006-06-02, 07:26

Oh. Another thing that's bothering me.

Spoiler:

Matrim · 2006-06-02, 09:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Circular Logic

Oh. Another thing that's bothering me.

Spoiler:

Quote:

Spoiler:

iamandragon · 2006-06-02, 22:22

Just watched this series...and I think it's quite good...
Seeing everyone's assumption...I just thought of this possibility:
After the festival...
Mion tried to kill everyone who entered the temple.
Mion was on her way to kill Shion.
Shion defeated Mion.
Shion decided to 'punish' Mion and imprisoned Mion.
Shion revealed Mion's crime by imposting her and pretend to torture Keiji.
Shion knocked out Keiji by shocking him.
Shion killed herself by throwing herself into the well.
Mion and Keiji got rescued.
The demon in Mion awakened.
Demon Mion stabbed Mion, but was stopped by human Mion's mind.
Mion realized that the demon is going to take over her.
Mion commited suicide so that the demon cannot kill Keiji.

That would make it correct timeline wise...though it's quite ridicoulus and full of holes...

AzureFlux · 2006-06-04, 13:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Matrim

Spoiler:

D a m i e n · 2006-07-19, 03:29

When Mion seems relieved not to have to show her tatoo i think it s pretty understandable not because she doesnt have it but because she has her pride. It would involve revieling her naked body to her friend and the one she loves (though he doesnt loves her but her sister instead) wich would hurt her feeling even more. And also because she has her pride as the heir of the yakuza familly and being naked in front of anyone is pretty humiliating for someone being used to be treated in her house with all the respect due to her stading. That is why i think she is relieved.

Spoiler:

Sorry for the awfull grammar not from an english speacking country and at work writting 1 sentence here and the next 15 min later, not good at all for coherence and grammatically correct paragraph

Alu · 2006-07-22, 05:28

I have just yesterday started seeing this Anime.., and unbelivably.. I had not seen in a while an Anime that so quickly made me fell in love with it..., not Fate-Stay, not even Haruhi..; I guess the last one that realy "caught" me this much was Rozen Maiden

But all and all this is just to say how Higurashi is realy in fact.. THAT good.., and I am only so far on episode 8 ^^

Here are now my thoughts regarding the ending of Watanagashi-hen..., altough I did pretty much had a good idea at the "picture" at the end of Onikakushi-hen.., I chose to not post anything on the episode 4 thread, thus using my thoughts to support my ideas on this one.

I'd better spoil tag it just in case ^^

Spoiler:

Thanks for reading.., once again.., I know I have the habit of making Huge posts, and this is no exception ^^

solwyvern · 2006-07-22, 06:40

*whew* I somehow read the entirety

Heh, from what I understood, you seem to be blaming Shion for all the wrongdoings in Watanagishi-hen.
[you might want to check out, wikipedia article for info, I check it as often as I can]
At first I, too, speculated the same thing, now, I'm not too sure. Because if you notice from the Op. movie, it is Mion who has the tatoo on her back. The sign of the 'Oni' -and that's what posesses her.
Also. from what I read in the manga(-I've read all that's translated so far

) the bond between Shion and K1 seems to be more represented, so I've already been having doubts that Shion and Mion actually 'switched places'

Spoiler for manga:

I have seen some screencaps for episode 16 (the beginning of the answer arcs) And it seems to be all about Shion and Mion. Hopefully everything will be explained there. I haven't seen 16 yet because no subs are out yet.

Quote:

And this might be a REALY long shot.., but is there any possibilities that the person whom Shion was in love with was Satoshi ?

No this, I am SURE has some truth to it. There was a scene in episode 9, I think.
where

Spoiler:

Quote:

Upon reading some of the comments on episode 4 from when Onikakushi-hen ended.., it realy seems more and more to me that Keiichi goes mentaly unstable quite easily; not that I can blame him after all that happens to him though ^^

That is of course one of his 'interesting' traits.
I mean, from all the anime I've watched, I've never seen a character like Keichi
(he did however remind me a bit of Eva's Shinji)
You will be even more surprised at how right you are when you see him in the next arc^^

Lastly, you never mentioned anything about Rena, I really believe (hope, anyway) that she plays a big part in the show. I really, really want to see her and Keichi duke it out with that bat and hatchet. And the way she acts in several parts of the show really ticks my interest. Maybe something will happen...~_~

Overall, I cannot answer much myself, the on-goings in this show, unlike some of the people here who have played the game and read the manga.
..but one thing I am sure of is that this show is already on par with my beloved Rozen Maiden.

Quote:

All and all I am LOVING this anime

...
told 'ya.

... though I'm still unsure just how much you do, since it seemed you were a bit reluctant when I first told you.
but to be on par with Rozen, I never knew you would like it that much.

You even changed your AV.
Now, if you'll excuse me, I have to go continue those vectors ^^;;

edit: I just read your pm. You were a little too late, since I was already reading your post
oh, yeah, I can write long posts too -if I feel like it.

Alu · 2006-07-22, 06:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by solwyvern

*whew* I somehow read the entirety

Heh, from what I understood, you seem to be blaming Shion for all the wrongdoings in Watanagishi-hen.
[you might want to check out, wikipedia article for info, I check it as often as I can]
At first I, too, speculated the same thing, now, I'm not too sure. Because if you notice from the Op. movie, it is Mion who has the tatoo on her back. The sign of the 'Oni' -and that's what posesses her.

So you belive that there is in fact something un-natural at work here.., as the demon mark having the powers to realy make a person phsycological insane as what happened to Mion (whom I belive to be Shion at that moment) ?

I guess I'll have to wait until I watch the next arcs for more information on this subject.., to me currently though it all seems that everything has a logical explination, a very deep plot indeed.., but its more understandable then something super-natural at work... - Altough I haven't crossed this option out yet myself

And yay, this is the bigest post I have ever seen you post

solwyvern · 2006-07-22, 07:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alu

So you belive that there is in fact something un-natural at work here.., as the demon mark having the powers to realy make a person phsycological insane as what happened to Mion (whom I belive to be Shion at that moment) ?

Hmm, yes and no. ..but I'm starting to align with 'no' lately
Yes, because The very fact that some 'things' happen illogically.
There could really be a curse and Oyashiro-sama, then again, maybe not...

No, because it could be the work of cultists. I still want to find out just who were those 'thugs' that attacked K1.
Also after watching Tatarigoroshi-hen, check some previous episodes, (especially 4)
Alot of people probably know already, but

Spoiler for watch ep 9+ first!:

...then again I got even more confused by the pattern of ep14-15 & Rika's premonition >_<;;

Quote:

And yay, this is the bigest post I have ever seen you post

\o/

Alu · 2006-07-23, 00:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by solwyvern

Hmm, yes and no. ..but I'm starting to align with 'no' lately
Yes, because The very fact that some 'things' happen illogically.
There could really be a curse and Oyashiro-sama, then again, maybe not...

No, because it could be the work of cultists. I still want to find out just who were those 'thugs' that attacked K1.
Also after watching Tatarigoroshi-hen, check some previous episodes, (especially 4)

I just finished Tatarigoroshi-hen..., and yes.., now I see why you tend to lean over to the un-natural possibility..., damn.., this arc compleatly pushed away alot of things that I was counting on beeing sure

So yes.., it is possible that the "other" element we speak here is possible.., specialy now more then ever.., Never the less though.

I still am under the impression that most of the events that happened during the Watanagashi-hen had a reasonable answer, much like those of which I based my speculations on my previous posts.

All and all, now regarding Onikakushi-hen..., despite I still having the feeling that most of the events there happened due to..

Spoiler:

So all in an overall bases on Onikakushi-hen and Watanagashi-hen it seems that reason still holds more balance in the scale against un-natural.., for what I belive.., despite all of what happened in Tatarigoroshi-hen, and even these arcs can be described as almost alternate realities that compromise each other on a huge number of aspects.

Most of these aspects still happened in the first 2 arcs with a much more reasonable explination or speculations, which means.., even if Tatarigoroshi-hen was mostely driven by un-natural events, it just comes to complement alot of missing parts on the previous 2 reason driven arcs.

Or so I currently belive it to be

Off to the next arc I go, I've finaly gotten all the 15 here with me and now I'll definitly be able to catch up

lommm · 2006-07-25, 04:46

after the first two arcs, i think that people reading these boards should read a clear definition of Dissociative Idenity Disorder...
it's a lot to read, but at least skim through it...
it kind of shines a new light on a lot of the events of the first two arcs...

i'm just taking this from wiki because it's easier to cut and paste, but it's pretty acurate and similar to my textbooks' definition...

Spoiler for Dissociative Idenity Disorder:

Spoiler for A definition of dissociation:

Spoiler for Potential causes of dissociative identity disorder:

Potential causes of dissociative identity disorder
Dissociative identity disorder is attributed to the interaction of several factors: overwhelming stress, dissociative capacity (including the ability to uncouple one's memories, perceptions, or identity from conscious awareness), the enlistment of steps in normal developmental processes as defenses, and, during childhood, the lack of sufficient nurturing and compassion in response to hurtful experiences or lack of protection against further overwhelming experiences. Children are not born with a sense of a unified identity--it develops from many sources and experiences. In overwhelmed children, its development is obstructed, and many parts of what should have blended into a relatively unified identity remain separate. North American studies show that 97 to 98% of adults with dissociative identity disorder report abuse during childhood and that abuse can be documented for 85% of adults and for 95% of children and adolescents with dissociative identity disorder and other closely related forms of dissociative disorder. Although these data establish childhood abuse as a major cause among North American patients (in some cultures, the consequences of war and disaster play a larger role), they do not mean that all such patients were abused or that all the abuses reported by patients with dissociative identity disorder really happened. Some aspects of some reported abuse experiences may prove to be inaccurate. Also, some patients have not been abused but have experienced an important early loss (such as death of a parent), serious medical illness, or other very stressful events. For example, a patient who required many hospitalizations and operations during childhood may have been severely overwhelmed but not abused.

Human development requires that children be able to integrate complicated and different types of information and experiences successfully. As children achieve cohesive, complex appreciations of themselves and others, they go through phases in which different perceptions and emotions are kept segregated. Each developmental phase may be used to generate different selves. Not every child who experiences abuse or major loss or trauma has the capacity to develop multiple personalities. Patients with dissociative identity disorder can be easily hypnotized. This capacity, closely related to the capacity to dissociate, is thought to be a factor in the development of the disorder. However, most children who have these capacities also have normal adaptive mechanisms, and most are sufficiently protected and soothed by adults to prevent development of dissociative identity disorder.

Spoiler for Symptoms:

Symptoms
Patients often have a remarkable array of symptoms that can resemble other neurologic and psychiatric disorders, such as anxiety disorders, personality disorders, schizophrenic and mood psychoses, and seizure disorders. Symptoms of this particular disorder can sometimes include:

depression
anxiety (sweating, rapid pulse, palpitations)
phobias
panic attacks
physical symptoms (severe headaches or other bodily pain)
fluctuating levels of function, from highly effective to disabled
time distortions, time lapse, and amnesia
sexual dysfunction
eating disorders
sleeping disorders (insomnia, sleepwalking, night terrors)
posttraumatic stress
suicidal preoccupations and attempts
episodes of self-mutilation
psychoactive substance abuse[4]
Other symptoms include: Depersonalization, which refers to feeling unreal, removed from one's self, and detached from one's physical and mental processes. The patient feels like an observer of his life and may actually see himself as if he were watching a movie. Derealization refers to experiencing familiar persons and surroundings as if they were unfamiliar and strange or unreal.

Again, doctors must be careful not to assume that a client has MPD or DID simply because they present with some or all of these symptoms. Another factor in the diagnosis is the all squares are rectangles but not all rectangles are squares idea, which is to say that although many of these symptoms may be present in an individual, he or she may not necessarily have DID. For example, someone may have severe PTSD (one symptom) and self mutilate with suicidal ideas, which is 3 of the above symptoms, but will not have DID. In order for DID to be diagnosed, there must be 2 or more distinctly present personalities.

Persons with dissociative identity disorder are often told of things they have done but do not remember and of notable changes in their behavior. They may discover objects, productions, or handwriting that they cannot account for or recognize; they may refer to themselves in the first person plural (we) or in the third person (he, she, they); and they may have amnesia for events that occurred between their mid-childhood and early adolescence. Amnesia for earlier events is normal and widespread.

it's possible that with the stress of being the heir to the Sonazaki yukuza family and of having seen a murder at a young age during the fight over the dam, Mion suffers from a dissociative identity disorder in which she uses the name and countenance of the demon to "dissociate" herself from the terrible violence and stress surrounding her, as well as the bad memories

the same can be said of Keiichi and Rena in Onikakushi... i guess even in Watanagashi, they both snap a little from time to time... but not as bad as in the first arc

i'm not discounting a paranormal cause, especially after 9-13, but there is a definite explanation for it with this theory...

also one of the hints is about

Spoiler:

Hunter Nin. · 2006-07-25, 18:44

I'm not sure if this is just a trick of the light but...

Spoiler for never having to worry about which twin is which:

lommm · 2006-07-25, 19:57

okay, then that makes me have a new question:

if Shion is supposed to be the "older twin"...

she can't be that much older or they can't be twins...

a couple of days at most...

i've never heard of anything with twins being born more than two days apart...

which is rare in itself...

so are they supposed to be sisters who just look very much alike or are they twins???

View Poll Results: Higurashi Episode 8 Rating
Perfect 10	57	41.30%
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8 out of 10 : Very Good	25	18.12%
7 out of 10 : Good	6	4.35%
6 out of 10 : Average	2	1.45%
5 out of 10 : Below Average	0	0%
4 out of 10 : Poor	0	0%
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1 out of 10 : Painful	1	0.72%
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2006-05-31, 17:16	Link #121
Midrange Betwixt tweet and woof Join Date: May 2006	[edit: argh, wrong thread. sorry. post removed] Last edited by Midrange; 2006-05-31 at 17:37.

2006-06-01, 23:46	Link #127
蜩の泣 Junior Member Join Date: Jun 2006	I just have a question about the last frame. Spoiler: As 大石 told k1 both twins' dead in the hospital, then how come Mion appeared at last. was it just k1's imagination? I only saw the red screen,was k1 dead then?

2006-06-02, 07:26	Link #128
Circular Logic 土は幻に Fansubber Join Date: Dec 2005	Oh. Another thing that's bothering me. Spoiler: Why didn't Mion kill Rena? She killed Rika and Satoko, and the Village Chief simply for being confided to - why not Rena? And why was Rena so sure she wouldn't be killed? Unless there was another reason why Mion started killing...

2006-07-19, 03:29	Link #132
D a m i e n permanentely bored Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: France Age: 44	When Mion seems relieved not to have to show her tatoo i think it s pretty understandable not because she doesnt have it but because she has her pride. It would involve revieling her naked body to her friend and the one she loves (though he doesnt loves her but her sister instead) wich would hurt her feeling even more. And also because she has her pride as the heir of the yakuza familly and being naked in front of anyone is pretty humiliating for someone being used to be treated in her house with all the respect due to her stading. That is why i think she is relieved. Spoiler: Also Rena seems to know too much in this chapter. Sure we get to see she is pretty clever but she is showing too much confidence imo going to see mion then letting keiichi/miom alone together. something with the conversation in Mion's house was making feel that it was too well written like both girl knew the scrypt perfectely. Her voice also is not as childish as it should be. It makes me think she might have some connection with Miom other than best friend. Rena then got ride of Mion while keiichi was unconscious <-- personnal feeling only since it s made obsolete after the doll explanation and with the appearance of Mion in front of keiichi. Using the spoiler from the book we got about a syringue being next to Shion suicide place i m assuming it was Rena since she is only one left alive that drug Shion to stab Keiichi then to suicide herself, i m not fond of paranormal/zombi theory. The appearance of Mion at the end would be an hallucination due to medecines, stress and infos given to keiichi. Using only the anime to draw conclusion i would say that for the timeline in the deaths between Mion, Shion and keiichi attack i only see a weak state of mind for Shion since i dont want to have any paranormal activity, i only think in rationnal term. Keiichi being attack i can only think it was Shion suffering from dual personnality after what she went throught because it would otherwise involve zombi. She then attack keiichi then commit suicide. The appearance at the end is imo just an hallucination due to what he just learn + various medications like painkiller used at the hospital. Sorry for the awfull grammar not from an english speacking country and at work writting 1 sentence here and the next 15 min later, not good at all for coherence and grammatically correct paragraph

2006-06-01, 01:58	Link #122
Nvis Where are the good animes Join Date: Dec 2003	I don't understand why Mion is carrying that gun around in public and for everyone to see. And no one mentions anything. Just what's up with that? Is it because she's the yakuza heir or something? And when she stabbed Keiichi(hallucination?) with the knife, she could have made it simpler and just use her gun...

2006-06-01, 18:34	Link #124
LordAshram Junior Member Join Date: Mar 2006	Well, she WAS holding it rather defensively in that scene at the beginning of ep 5... Could be a stungun or something.

2006-06-02, 22:22	Link #130
iamandragon Martian diplomat Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Mars	Just watched this series...and I think it's quite good... Seeing everyone's assumption...I just thought of this possibility: After the festival... Mion tried to kill everyone who entered the temple. Mion was on her way to kill Shion. Shion defeated Mion. Shion decided to 'punish' Mion and imprisoned Mion. Shion revealed Mion's crime by imposting her and pretend to torture Keiji. Shion knocked out Keiji by shocking him. Shion killed herself by throwing herself into the well. Mion and Keiji got rescued. The demon in Mion awakened. Demon Mion stabbed Mion, but was stopped by human Mion's mind. Mion realized that the demon is going to take over her. Mion commited suicide so that the demon cannot kill Keiji. That would make it correct timeline wise...though it's quite ridicoulus and full of holes...

2006-07-22, 05:28	Link #133
Alu Guide my hand... Join Date: Mar 2006 Age: 40	I have just yesterday started seeing this Anime.., and unbelivably.. I had not seen in a while an Anime that so quickly made me fell in love with it..., not Fate-Stay, not even Haruhi..; I guess the last one that realy "caught" me this much was Rozen Maiden But all and all this is just to say how Higurashi is realy in fact.. THAT good.., and I am only so far on episode 8 ^^ Here are now my thoughts regarding the ending of Watanagashi-hen..., altough I did pretty much had a good idea at the "picture" at the end of Onikakushi-hen.., I chose to not post anything on the episode 4 thread, thus using my thoughts to support my ideas on this one. I'd better spoil tag it just in case ^^ Spoiler: From Onikakushi-hen I was left with the idea that Keiichi was a realy important person to Mion.., on episode 4 when he confronted her about keeping secrets from him, and then told her he was not her friend.., Mion started to burst into tears... As in..., she realy cared for him, and did not wish for him to get himself involved.., specialy in the way he did. Then on episode 5 of Watanagashi-hen upon the scene where Keiichi chose to hand over the doll to Rena and said to Mion "this is probably something that you wouldn't like".., her actions after, when she so badly faked as not to care realy gaved my previous speculations support. Later on though when he then met Shion.., and this one said to him "now I see why Mii-chan likes you. But... can I.. like you too ?", and specialy the WAY she said it.. Also then on episode 6 & so forfth where she clearly tries to make Mion jealous by using Keiichi and shoves it into her face.., compleatly lowering her down.. gaved me the thought that..., now bare with me here.., its going to get a bit crazy Maybe Shion was in love with someone just as Mion is with Keiichi ? Though something went rong and Shion is now alone.., upon seeing Mion beeing happy.. she could not stand it and wanted to first humiliate her and then kill her? just on the fact that she could not stand the fact that her sister who was going to in-herit everything was also now getting the love that to her was denied. And this might be a REALY long shot.., but is there any possibilities that the person whom Shion was in love with was Satoshi ? Since Mion loves Keiichi and Keiichi resembles Satoshi in every way (or so I could conclude from Onikakushi-hen), I could see that this fact strenghned her hatred for Mion beeing in love. But this is just my head going wild ^^ For the switches though.., I only came to realise, or I speculate that is.., that the person on the Mannor standing in front of Keiichi and Rena was Shion and not Mion, thus using the "switch" as previously mencioned. I also belive that Mion had done a "switch" on episode 4, when she was the one who went to Keiichi's house and brought him the Bento, so its very possible for both to realy pass as the other whenever the feel like it. Altough probably never mencioning it to the other. Another switch I belive happened was in during when they went to check Satoko's and Rika's house..., I belive that Mion was actualy Shion instead.. This because.., and it kind of is where I first thought of Satoshi beeing someone who ment something to Shion as I previously stated.. When Keiichi is climbing the letter and he meanciones Satoko.., Mion (or as I belive Shion) went compleatly nuts saying all sorts of bad things about Sakoto and how she caused a huge burden for Satoshi. We know from Onikakushi-hen that Sakoto's brother is Satoshi.. and maybe Sakoto did not aprove for the two to be together and it caused something bad to happen ? Anyway's.. Mion never had this reaction towards Sakoto. she is in fact her friend.., therefor that entire scene just felt as if something was rong.., thus my theory comming into place. Also.., we never got to see the "demon tattoo" on her back.., I belive Rena quickly saw that that was in fact Shion and said that there was no need for her to show it, since it would unveil the switch, and Rena wanted to see how far the play would last, sort of speak. Her "sush" to Keiichi with a finger in this scene realy supports my idea that Rena caught Shion's act pretty quickly. And altough we do get to see whom I belive to be Mion in the cage later.., because its dark we cannot see the tattoo on her back, its all very well set My take on this is though is..., Shion is REALY mentaly unstable.., I first got it from most of the pictures I'd seen, but also from the OP.. and specialy now.., since I belive its due to what happened between her and the person she loved. Thus naturaly this leads me to belive that she finaly "cracked" she switched places with Mion and imprisioned her, maybe even tortured her ? (It is absolutly clear to me that the person inside the cage was Mion and not Shion.., the one-sama part mencioned before realy gaved my speculations more foundation.., not to mencione the fact that through the entire episode Mion acted realy as a phsyco-Shion.., and when we see Shion in the cage she acted realy like Mion would.., specialy upon seeing Keiichi.., but frightned) She then called Rika over as to lure Satoko (due to her hatred towards her) and killed her.., after as to not leave any witnesses behind.., she toke out Rika aswell. I belive she clearly had intentions of killing Keiichi after aswell and then Mion and probably then herself ^^, altough when she was finaly going to drive the nails into Keiichi's fingers.., she could not do it. I take it this is some repressed love she still has.., that due to the resemblences on Keiichi between him and her love.., she could bring herself to kill him, specialy after hearing his wishes and dedication towards the Real Mion even when he was about to die. Shion then placed him to sleep with her taser-gun and after I belive, since she knew there was no more way out.., she atended to his wishes.. So.. she setted the real Mion free and later killed herself. (I speculate that the body in the well at the end was in fact Shion and not Mion. Shion probably threw herself in, without hope, without nothing anymore..., it was to her the only escape) Mion however despite having been set free.., probably after having suffered so much tortune and still beeing hunted by the police.., and now Keiichi thinking she was Shion.. definitly went insane.. So after stabbing Keiichi (not fataly), she threw herself from the apartment.., with everyone still thinking she was Shion. Leaving me the only real puzzle left to uncover is on how Keiichi still saw Shion in the hospital after..., but again.. I am taking another REAL long shot here and say.. That that was all in Keiichi's head. Upon reading some of the comments on episode 4 from when Onikakushi-hen ended.., it realy seems more and more to me that Keiichi goes mentaly unstable quite easily; not that I can blame him after all that happens to him though ^^ But.., given the needle in the cake which I did not think either existed, and all the so "persecution-like" thoughts that where going through his end throughout the last episodes on the 1st arc.., it realy leads me to belive that probably ALOT that happens is in Keiichi's head and not the "reality" in fact. Which would give a reasonable explination to the last scene of Watanagashi-hen on episode 8. Or so I at the moment think I've just been focusing on these subjects for now.., I still have ALOT of questions.. on ALOT of issues.., hopefully the next arcs will fill in some more little info on them But probably then raise more questions I hope there is some true facts on my speculations so far.., otherwhise I will go compleatly nuts ^^ But then again.., I often have the habit of over-complicating things.., and most times the most dificult answers to find out are the easier ones. All and all I am LOVING this anime Thanks for reading.., once again.., I know I have the habit of making Huge posts, and this is no exception ^^ Last edited by Alu; 2006-07-22 at 06:03.

2006-07-25, 04:46	Link #138
lommm l'homme de lommm Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: 34 3 118 15	after the first two arcs, i think that people reading these boards should read a clear definition of Dissociative Idenity Disorder... it's a lot to read, but at least skim through it... it kind of shines a new light on a lot of the events of the first two arcs... i'm just taking this from wiki because it's easier to cut and paste, but it's pretty acurate and similar to my textbooks' definition... Spoiler for Dissociative Idenity Disorder: Dissociative Idenity Disorder Dissociative identity disorder is a diagnosis described in the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders, 4th Edition, Revised, as the existence in an individual of two or more distinct identities or personalities, each with its own pattern of perceiving and interacting with the environment. To qualify as a dissociative identity disorder, at least two personalities must routinely take control of the individual's behavior, and there must be a loss of memory that goes beyond normal forgetfulness. This memory loss is often referred to as "losing time". These symptoms must occur independently of substance abuse or a general medical condition. Dissociative identity disorder was initially named multiple personality disorder, and that name remains in the International Statistical Classification of Diseases and Related Health Problems. Spoiler for A definition of dissociation: A definition of dissociation Dissociation is a complex mental process that provides a coping mechanism for individuals confronting painful and/or traumatic situations. It is characterized by a dis-integration of the ego. Ego integration, or more properly ego integrity, can be defined as a person's ability to successfully incorporate external events or social experiences into their perception, and to then present themselves consistently across those events or social situations. A person unable to do this successfully can experience emotional dysregulation, as well as a potential collapse of ego integrity. In other words, this state of emotional dysregulation is, in some cases, so intense that it can precipitate ego dis-integration, or what, in extreme cases, has come to be referred to diagnostically as dissociation. Dissociation describes a collapse in ego integrity so profound that the personality is considered to literally break apart. For this reason, dissocation is often referred to as "splitting" or "altering". Less profound presentations of this condition are often referred to clinically as disorganization or decompensation. The difference between a psychotic break and a dissociation, or dissociative break, is that, while someone who is experiencing a dissociation is technically pulling away from a situation that s/he cannot manage, some part of the person remains connected to reality. While the psychotic "breaks" from reality, the dissociative disconnects, but not all the way. Because the person suffering a dissociation does not completely disengage from his/her reality, s/he may appear to have multiple "personalities". In other words, different "people" (read: personalities) to deal with different situations, but generally speaking, no one person (read: personality) who will retreat altogether. Spoiler for Potential causes of dissociative identity disorder: Potential causes of dissociative identity disorder Dissociative identity disorder is attributed to the interaction of several factors: overwhelming stress, dissociative capacity (including the ability to uncouple one's memories, perceptions, or identity from conscious awareness), the enlistment of steps in normal developmental processes as defenses, and, during childhood, the lack of sufficient nurturing and compassion in response to hurtful experiences or lack of protection against further overwhelming experiences. Children are not born with a sense of a unified identity--it develops from many sources and experiences. In overwhelmed children, its development is obstructed, and many parts of what should have blended into a relatively unified identity remain separate. North American studies show that 97 to 98% of adults with dissociative identity disorder report abuse during childhood and that abuse can be documented for 85% of adults and for 95% of children and adolescents with dissociative identity disorder and other closely related forms of dissociative disorder. Although these data establish childhood abuse as a major cause among North American patients (in some cultures, the consequences of war and disaster play a larger role), they do not mean that all such patients were abused or that all the abuses reported by patients with dissociative identity disorder really happened. Some aspects of some reported abuse experiences may prove to be inaccurate. Also, some patients have not been abused but have experienced an important early loss (such as death of a parent), serious medical illness, or other very stressful events. For example, a patient who required many hospitalizations and operations during childhood may have been severely overwhelmed but not abused. Human development requires that children be able to integrate complicated and different types of information and experiences successfully. As children achieve cohesive, complex appreciations of themselves and others, they go through phases in which different perceptions and emotions are kept segregated. Each developmental phase may be used to generate different selves. Not every child who experiences abuse or major loss or trauma has the capacity to develop multiple personalities. Patients with dissociative identity disorder can be easily hypnotized. This capacity, closely related to the capacity to dissociate, is thought to be a factor in the development of the disorder. However, most children who have these capacities also have normal adaptive mechanisms, and most are sufficiently protected and soothed by adults to prevent development of dissociative identity disorder. Spoiler for Symptoms: Symptoms Patients often have a remarkable array of symptoms that can resemble other neurologic and psychiatric disorders, such as anxiety disorders, personality disorders, schizophrenic and mood psychoses, and seizure disorders. Symptoms of this particular disorder can sometimes include: depression anxiety (sweating, rapid pulse, palpitations) phobias panic attacks physical symptoms (severe headaches or other bodily pain) fluctuating levels of function, from highly effective to disabled time distortions, time lapse, and amnesia sexual dysfunction eating disorders sleeping disorders (insomnia, sleepwalking, night terrors) posttraumatic stress suicidal preoccupations and attempts episodes of self-mutilation psychoactive substance abuse[4] Other symptoms include: Depersonalization, which refers to feeling unreal, removed from one's self, and detached from one's physical and mental processes. The patient feels like an observer of his life and may actually see himself as if he were watching a movie. Derealization refers to experiencing familiar persons and surroundings as if they were unfamiliar and strange or unreal. Again, doctors must be careful not to assume that a client has MPD or DID simply because they present with some or all of these symptoms. Another factor in the diagnosis is the all squares are rectangles but not all rectangles are squares idea, which is to say that although many of these symptoms may be present in an individual, he or she may not necessarily have DID. For example, someone may have severe PTSD (one symptom) and self mutilate with suicidal ideas, which is 3 of the above symptoms, but will not have DID. In order for DID to be diagnosed, there must be 2 or more distinctly present personalities. Persons with dissociative identity disorder are often told of things they have done but do not remember and of notable changes in their behavior. They may discover objects, productions, or handwriting that they cannot account for or recognize; they may refer to themselves in the first person plural (we) or in the third person (he, she, they); and they may have amnesia for events that occurred between their mid-childhood and early adolescence. Amnesia for earlier events is normal and widespread. it's possible that with the stress of being the heir to the Sonazaki yukuza family and of having seen a murder at a young age during the fight over the dam, Mion suffers from a dissociative identity disorder in which she uses the name and countenance of the demon to "dissociate" herself from the terrible violence and stress surrounding her, as well as the bad memories the same can be said of Keiichi and Rena in Onikakushi... i guess even in Watanagashi, they both snap a little from time to time... but not as bad as in the first arc i'm not discounting a paranormal cause, especially after 9-13, but there is a definite explanation for it with this theory... also one of the hints is about Spoiler: Ooishi-san talking with the coroner about Keiichi and what would cause someone to commit suicide in the manner... he tells the detective something along the lines of "when a bipolar individual is in the process of shifting from one pole to the other, that is the only time they would actually commit suicide... the other times they either have to much energy or not enough... well, the same is often true for Dissociative Identity Disorder... patients can usually only commit suicide when shifting from one personality to another... you generally don't see one personality that is just plain suicidal, regardless of the pther personalities... that only happens in the movies, and it seems that the writers are going for much more solid, realistic and well0calculated psychology here...

2006-07-25, 18:44	Link #139
Hunter Nin. Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2004	I'm not sure if this is just a trick of the light but... Spoiler for never having to worry about which twin is which: Shion (or whomever is pretending to be Shion) is the one with tits. This may add wieght to the switch theory as they may have wanted her to appear more mature to show that she is really the older twin in disquise. Last edited by Hunter Nin.; 2006-07-25 at 19:06.

2006-07-25, 19:57	Link #140
lommm l'homme de lommm Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: 34 3 118 15	okay, then that makes me have a new question: if Shion is supposed to be the "older twin"... she can't be that much older or they can't be twins... a couple of days at most... i've never heard of anything with twins being born more than two days apart... which is rare in itself... so are they supposed to be sisters who just look very much alike or are they twins???