Sword Art Online - Episode 8 Discussion / Poll

[jcdietz03]

Originally Posted by Clarste

Spoiler for episode 8:

For the record, I'm currently nerd-raging about the fact that Asuna was allowed by game mechanics to interfere with the duel and that Kirito still won after she did so. I can allow that there might be some badly programmed game that allowed outside interference from other players in duels, but to have that outside interference not affect the result kind of... undermines the entire point of having a duel mechanic? This little change, presumably to make Asuna look more competent, makes me think the directors have no respect for games whatsoever, which lowers my expectations of the anime several-fold. And it was already pretty low.

I think, if you are not participating, you just cannot deal damage or inflict statuses on the people who are. Throwing your body between the combatants (you cannot be hurt because you're not participating) would be fair game. You could still affect the participants' equipment in any way - for example, weapon break or armor break.

[Clarste]

Originally Posted by relentlessflame

So yeah... I think both you and Klashikari are right. I think what Kirito is doing is not unexpected or unreasonable given who he is, his experiences, and what he thinks he knows. But, by the same token, we in the audience have a pretty clear sense that it's obviously more dangerous than he thinks it is. If he could detect the same clues we can, then he would surely do something different... but he's a solo player, and not used to thinking on that scale (plus, as you said, he doesn't know the extent of the oddities that were being hinted at yet). You could almost say that the game is "cheating" now, so whatever they think they know will be out the window (not unlike when they thought, for a while, that there was an exploit that would allow people to be killed in town).

Well, yeah, Kirito doesn't get to see all the foreshadowing and listen to all the dramatic music. He also doesn't know that his conversation with Asuna earlier was specifically singled out by the director, unlike all the other conversations he's had for the past two years, or indeed unlike his own thought processes when he realized that the enemies were acting differently after floor 70. Honestly, I could imagine him being worried about the floor 70 boss because that was immediately after the change in the enemies, but since he's done 70, 71, 72 and 73 after the change he has even less reason to be particularly worried.

[Trajan]

Originally Posted by Znail

Teleport crystals lead to safe areas and those are safe, even from fall damage.

Except of course we clearly see Kirito experience pain this episode when Asuna falls on him and then again when she punches him into the obelisk. So how much pain does one feel hitting the ground at 100 mph, regardless of whether they take damage or not?

[jcdietz03]

The boss from the opening is without doubt the same boss they saw in the ending. So my money is on them fighting it, alone. What I don't get (yet) is why they choose to fight it alone (or why they are forced to fight it alone). My money is on "forced to fight" since they readied their teleport crystals, which shows they are planning on running away.

[Xellos-_^]

Originally Posted by Trajan

Except of course we clearly see Kirito experience pain this episode when Asuna falls on him and then again when she punches him into the obelisk. So how much pain does one feel hitting the ground at 100 mph, regardless of whether they take damage or not?

animator issues, don't blame it on the author.

[GDB]

Originally Posted by Trajan

Except of course we clearly see Kirito experience pain this episode when Asuna falls on him and then again when she punches him into the obelisk. So how much pain does one feel hitting the ground at 100 mph, regardless of whether they take damage or not?

We also see Kirito stand there while a gang of mooks hack away at him and he's completely unphased. Clearly pain is not felt the same in every instance.

[Znail]

Originally Posted by Trajan

Except of course we clearly see Kirito experience pain this episode when Asuna falls on him and then again when she punches him into the obelisk. So how much pain does one feel hitting the ground at 100 mph, regardless of whether they take damage or not?

He didn't look like in actual pain. More like the tumble disoriented him a bit. If you do something actually painfull, like stubbing a toe, then you are usually a bit more emphatic about how much it hurts.

[Clarste]

There's no pain. They said so in episode one. We can assume that he's not actually hurt but just more shocked or startled or something. Also, given that none of the players have felt any real pain for 2 years they might start to overreact to other sensations. Not having pain is actually a very strange condition, so it's natural for the brain to try to recreate it from the inputs it does have. I can't be the only person who goes "ouch" from something that looks like it should hurt before realizing it doesn't.

And pain is 100% separate from the sense of touch. People often conflate these, but it's just not related. It's possible to feel touch with no pain.

[lightsenshi]

Originally Posted by jcdietz03

The boss from the opening is without doubt the same boss they saw in the ending. So my money is on them fighting it, alone. What I don't get (yet) is why they choose to fight it alone (or why they are forced to fight it alone). My money is on "forced to fight" since they readied their teleport crystals, which shows they are planning on running away.

We've already seen areas that teleportation simply doesn't work. Remember what happened to the Black Cats? And yes, I find it amusing that Asuna is far more dangerous than Kirito. Seems partying up does have it's advantages.

[Anh_Minh]

What makes you think she's more dangerous than he is?

[Clarste]

She did have a somewhat more aggressive style of fighting the monster.

[lightsenshi]

Saying nothing about how he was standing there with his mouth open the entire time....

[Anh_Minh]

So what? That's how they do things. They fight one at a time so they don't get in each other's way. But Kirito's been soloing these things, so it's not like Asuna's done anything he couldn't.

As for her aggressivity, not only does she have a partner to rely on, but she's a rapier user. Her blade's faster, but lighter.

[Spectacular_Insanity]

Originally Posted by Clarste

There's no pain. They said so in episode one. We can assume that he's not actually hurt but just more shocked or startled or something. Also, given that none of the players have felt any real pain for 2 years they might start to overreact to other sensations. Not having pain is actually a very strange condition, so it's natural for the brain to try to recreate it from the inputs it does have. I can't be the only person who goes "ouch" from something that looks like it should hurt before realizing it doesn't.

And pain is 100% separate from the sense of touch. People often conflate these, but it's just not related. It's possible to feel touch with no pain.

^This.

What players feel is discomfort, not pain. Anything else is merely psychological. Don't underestimate the power of the mind... many players feel like they're experiencing pain even if they're not. It's like flinching when someone moves to hit you, it's as much of a reflex as a reaction to stimulus.

[Trajan]

Originally Posted by Spectacular_Insanity

^This.

What players feel is discomfort, not pain. Anything else is merely psychological. Don't underestimate the power of the mind... many players feel like they're experiencing pain even if they're not. It's like flinching when someone moves to hit you, it's as much of a reflex as a reaction to stimulus.

What appears on screen is worth more than what is merely stated to be a fact. Kirito clearly rubs the back of his neck and says "ouch." It's more than mere "discomfort." Beyond that, it's doubtful that after two years without feeling pain that players would still instinctively react the same way you or I would.

Further evidence contradicting this "truth" is that Liz was extremely cold when in the mountains and that Kirito and Liz had to sleep in sleeping bags to keep warm. Sensations of extreme heat and cold are channeled through the body by pain receptors, just like mechanical pain.

The fact is, the anime has shown on more than one occasion that those within the game feel "pain". If they aren't supposed to, well, then that's a weakness in the adaptation, and perhaps the original LN.

[Xellos-_^]

Originally Posted by Trajan

What appears on screen is worth more than what is merely stated to be a fact. Kirito clearly rubs the back of his neck and says "ouch." It's more than mere "discomfort." Beyond that, it's doubtful that after two years without feeling pain that players would still instinctively react the same way you or I would.

since this deal with potential spoilers

http://forums.animesuki.com/showpost...&postcount=352

i answer this in the Q & A thread.

[Adigard]

Originally Posted by relentlessflame

He thinks this, but they were also careful to point out that, ever since they hit floor 70, strange things have been happening. So I think we (in the audience) are certainly supposed to believe that Kirito is being reasonable in his decision-making (just open the door to scout, has crystal in hand, all appearances of playing it safe per lessons learned from 73 previous floors...), but I also think it's pretty obvious (based one various hints and the tone of the scene) that the door will, in fact, close, and Kirito and Asuna will have the challenge of their lifetimes ahead of them.

(This is only speculation; novel readers, please don't tell me if I'm right or wrong.)

Keep in mind that Kirito was soloing in that dungeon previously. If he hadn't been partying with Asuna, I think it's not unlikely that he might have opened the door and done the check on his own (I am supposing that he may have done this previously too). If that were the case, and the door does in fact close, he'd be totally screwed. As it stands, I think he and Asuna will be able to beat the boss, but this near-brush with death (along with his realization from Episode 7 that he wants to live and clear this game for other people's sake) will make Kirito realize that it isn't safe to go it alone anymore, and cause him to join the guild to be with Asuna (the one party member who doesn't get in his way). It would also, of course, have the effect of making Kirito and Asuna legendary... and make that Kuradeel guy even more jealous.


So yeah... I think both you and Klashikari are right. I think what Kirito is doing is not unexpected or unreasonable given who he is, his experiences, and what he thinks he knows. But, by the same token, we in the audience have a pretty clear sense that it's obviously more dangerous than he thinks it is. If he could detect the same clues we can, then he would surely do something different... but he's a solo player, and not used to thinking on that scale (plus, as you said, he doesn't know the extent of the oddities that were being hinted at yet). You could almost say that the game is "cheating" now, so whatever they think they know will be out the window (not unlike when they thought, for a while, that there was an exploit that would allow people to be killed in town).

~I'm desperately ignoring everything in the OP~

Understanding that all of that is correct, I think if Kirito had the slightest hint that the door would slam behind him he'd be running the other way at full speed. Whether or not he values his own life (he'd have to, in order to get this far, and with the changes to his character we've seen since the Black Cats episode it's a safe bet he's not suicidal).

But he's also risking Asuna's life in the process (for whom he's probably developing feelings for). I'll take your points, but off-set them with other conversations this episode.

There are fewer front-line player's working on clearing the front lines, people are getting comfortable with life in SAO, and with the changes to monster AI it's likely there is a higher rate of fatality in clearing the floors (and in a death game even one death is too many).

Also he's risking the person who, in theory, leads the boss strategy meetings.

I think if Kirito had the slightest hint that the door would slam shut behind him he'd never even consider opening it.

But again, we've got the OP... so who knows, and as you point out Kirito isn't aware of what we're aware of. He doesn't get to see his own OP, nor listen to the mood music.

[Kamui04]

Originally Posted by Trajan

Except of course we clearly see Kirito experience pain this episode when Asuna falls on him and then again when she punches him into the obelisk. So how much pain does one feel hitting the ground at 100 mph, regardless of whether they take damage or not?

But then did it reduce his health bar or did he die?

Originally Posted by Trajan

Further evidence contradicting this "truth" is that Liz was extremely cold when in the mountains and that Kirito and Liz had to sleep in sleeping bags to keep warm. Sensations of extreme heat and cold are channeled through the body by pain receptors, just like mechanical pain.

But then the NerveGear intercepts the signals at the brain level and substitutes them for its own input. Which means the game can simply only give you the sensation of heat/cold but no pain. Or even the sensation of pain could exist but modulated. Also if they didn't feel heat and cold, half the notion of cooking and eating would be meaningless.

You know sensations aren't independent of one another because in the end they are interpreted, coordinated and managed by the brain. Back in Ep. 1 Klein flinched when the boar hit his groin like anyone would, because the visual stimuli said it would, realizing latter that it doesn't hurt. The same applies to the ghost hand, where they stimulate one of your hands, later substituted with a rubber one, seeing the stimulus on this fake member your brain still thinks it's real and you kinda feel it.

So far there's no proof to what's really happening to some of their senses. It could be that after Kayaba's announcement they re-activated the pain sensation, to what degree we might not know. Or maybe the characters are substituting the sensation of pain with the input from the other senses.

[relentlessflame]

Originally Posted by Adigard

I think if Kirito had the slightest hint that the door would slam shut behind him he'd never even consider opening it.

Yes, my view is that he has no expectation that that could happen, because it has never happened on any boss fight previously. If anything I think he sees what he's doing as being abundantly cautious, and not in any way reckless. Like I said, I bet that he's probably scoped out bosses by himself as a solo player before, with the understanding that the boss would never leave their boss room and you can always teleport away -- hence there's no danger in scouting it out as long as you're prepared. Asuna would also know this, but he's even telling her to be extra cautious and get out her crystal. I'm quite sure they both think they're playing it safe.

[Last Sinner]

It's episodes like that which make me want to watch anime. Nothing more I can say except thank flock business has picked up.