2011-07-20, 14:48 | Link #14921 | |
Not Enough Sleep
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: R'lyeh
Age: 48
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2. Obama has not to my knowledge say "I can't remember" regarding this matter 3. To my knowledge no one in the Obama administration has been try and convicted of lying to congress over this matter. 4. You forgot to mention the Iran-Contra affair has 2 parts. Support for the Contra and Selling Arms to Iran. How much do you want to bet that some of those arm that were sold to Iran eventually made their way to terrorist group that were used kill Americans?
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2011-07-20, 15:23 | Link #14922 | |||||||||
Asuki-tan Kairin ↓
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Fürth (GER)
Age: 43
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Here a short example for american real politics (without the idealism, patriotism and propaganda riffraff): Once the iranian Shah was a friend of the USA, because he kept the USSR influenced countries under control because of his military, which was thanks to US weapons exports not merely the 5th largest of the world but also very well equiped. That the Shah (dictatorship, not democracy) had to enslave his own people to pay for this huge military was okay with the USA. Then came Ayatolla Kohmenei and freed the irians (well freeing is a little bit of an exageration, he transformed the secular dictatorship into an religous dictatorship). Since the USA backed the Shah, the new regime was not exactly america friendly, and a new arch enemy was born. To counteract this, the american strategy was to uparm another hopeful dictator of its time - Saddam Hussein. The deal was, when he attacks iran and topples their government, he can keep the northern oil wells. Saddam basically a fair business partner attacked iran (gulf war I). Gassing kurds to solve some internal conflicts was also tolerable at this time. However, the war went on for too long, huge losses on both sides. Saddam realized this approach is too costly. He knew a better place to get oil - Kuwait. While a war against iran was perfectly okay with the US, a war against their own oil suppliers was a very bad idea. And suddenly a new arch enemy was born. Now Iraq and Iran were on the black list. At about this time the USSR was "helping" their comrades in Afghanistan to seize control of the country. In order to counter this, the US recruited religious zealots to fight for the holy cause - which roughly translates into fighting against russian troops in Afghanistan. Among them Al Qaida, at the time the "freedom fighters" of their time in Afghanistan. After the russians were beaten, Al Qaida turned against the USA, because they basically figured out, that were just misused. Their holy mission just a clever US strategy to regain influence in the region. Desillusioned about the true intentions of the USA, Al Qaida began to become anti american... and another arch enemy was born. Quote:
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Last edited by Jinto; 2011-07-20 at 16:17. |
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2011-07-20, 15:35 | Link #14923 |
I disagree with you all.
Join Date: Dec 2005
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In fairness, even without discussing whose life is worth more, the government's job is to look after the interests of its own citizens. I don't remember voting to make the US the world police, and I don't remember paying taxes to them (except for the sales tax when I was there). Do you think your own government will spend more effort to protect foreigners than to protect Germans?
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2011-07-20, 15:48 | Link #14924 | |
Asuki-tan Kairin ↓
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Fürth (GER)
Age: 43
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But thats not the point, I could have been born in the USA. What then... do I agree with my government... as much as I do not have to agree with the german government a US citizen can disagree with their government. The real question is, what is my motive... is it a humanitarian one, or am I just another hypocrite?
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2011-07-20, 16:07 | Link #14925 |
I disagree with you all.
Join Date: Dec 2005
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I'd say it's not a matter of merely agreeing or disagreeing with your government. It's a matter of feeling betrayed by it or not. (Not that I'm unaware of the fact some people feel betrayed whenever the wrong lizard gets elected, but that's another matter.)
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2011-07-20, 16:12 | Link #14926 |
Aria Company
Join Date: Nov 2003
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It's worth pointing out that while the operation was ill conceived, it has been moderately successful in its goal. The fact that these guns are showing up in crimes on both sides of the border is proof enough of that. Unfortunately success once again means these guns are showing up in crimes on both sides of the border. Apparently no one pointed out this glaringly obvious problem during the planning.
As for the comparisons to Iran Contra, that's complete and total bullshit. Call me when Obama or at least his top advisors are involved and trying to cover it up, the purpose of selling the guns was to actually support the cartels, and the money for them was made by secretly selling weapons to a regime the US government had an arms embargo against. Though I can't fully blame the selling weapons to Iran thing. They were in a war with another country we were supplying weapons to at the time. Nothing wrong with selling to both sides as long as you don't get caught. Capitalism, ho!
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2011-07-20, 17:29 | Link #14928 |
Gamilas Falls
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Republic of California
Age: 46
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I would think it was more to fulfill several contractual obligations to the companies that had invested in Iran before 1979. Iran is the only country the US supplied F-14 fighters and Pheonix missiles to go with them. We did keep the four new Kidd-class destroyers we built for them...I believe we just sold those to Taiwan (they had the good air conditioning systems)
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2011-07-20, 18:49 | Link #14929 |
books-eater youkai
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Betweem wisdom and insanity
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U.N. declares famine in pockets of southern Somalia
http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/...76J28820110720
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2011-07-20, 20:28 | Link #14930 | |
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2011-07-20, 20:33 | Link #14931 | |||||||
Senior Member
Join Date: May 2009
Location: classified
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However, his administration is responsible for this current BATFE debacle. Quote:
While the IBD article pins this on the Obama administration and considers it equal to Iran-Contra, my point in posting it was that this story is significant yet it's not being given the media coverage it deserves. Quote:
The situation between what is happening in Mexico and what happened in Nicaragua are very similar, as is what is happening in Libya. The difference lay in what the goals of the rebels are verses the goals of the drug cartels. Quote:
We have to see how far this will go first. Your fourth point is unprovable either way so it also is moot and has no relevence to this conversation. It can just as easily be said that no Americans were killed with those weapons. Quote:
I don't need a refresher course on it. Besides your post is straying off the topic. The topic is that the BATFE under the Obama administration is engaged in the illegal sale of weapons to foreign criminals. That is how it relates to the Contra affair, the sales that Reagan authorized were ILLEGAL (and yes I believe Reagan knew about it), and so are these sales done by the BATFE. The only question now is how far up the political ladder of the Obama administration does knowledge of this go? Did Obama know? That will have to be answered by whatever investigators get the job of tackling this mess. Quote:
If that's how you feel that's fine, but it doesn't change the fact that what the BATFE has been doing is illegal. They have violated the Arms Export Control Act of 1976 and there is no excuse for it. This is not some trivial thing. Quote:
BATFE is supposed to PROTECT US citizens not use them as scapegoats.
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2011-07-20, 20:56 | Link #14932 | |
Obey the Darkly Cute ...
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Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: On the whole, I'd rather be in Kyoto ...
Age: 66
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2011-07-21, 01:02 | Link #14933 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal
Age: 44
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Former NFL players: League concealed concussion risks
WTH!? These pricks earn millions and now that it hurts they still want more. Are they so dumb that they don't have common-sense? Did they believe that head-bumping was actually safe?
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2011-07-21, 01:12 | Link #14934 | |
I don't give a damn, dude
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: In Despair
Age: 37
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2011-07-21, 02:34 | Link #14935 | |
Asuki-tan Kairin ↓
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Fürth (GER)
Age: 43
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So all I am saying is that I have sympathy for your resistance to the BATFE but no sympathy for your selfish motives. And the off-topic-ness was neccessary to give you some historical background knowledge, so that you know what I am refering to in this post.
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2011-07-21, 03:13 | Link #14936 | ||
Senior Member
Join Date: May 2009
Location: classified
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If I had been then I would have posted this picture of CIA operative Zbigniew Brzezinski and Tony Osmo (Osama Bin Laden) in Afghanistan sometime in the late 1980s. This picture originally came out of the 1990 end-of-year issue of Soldier of Fortune magazine. But remember, the official line out of the Bush admn is that the CIA did not create Al Qaeda or train Osama Bin Ladin. That's a conspiracy theory and you shouldn't pay any attention to all the photos from the 80s of CIA men training Osama. It's like the Enquirer, it was matted in...or something. You know Jinto, it really amazes me how stupid the US government thinks we all are...but I digress. Quote:
The ATF is only one of the worst agencies of the US government, but not the only one. Empire certainly has its price, and I for one don't think it was worth it.
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2011-07-21, 06:21 | Link #14937 |
books-eater youkai
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Betweem wisdom and insanity
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Loyalist troops besiege Damascus suburb after protests
http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/...76J48W20110721
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2011-07-21, 09:18 | Link #14938 | |
Inactive
Join Date: Aug 2007
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Indian Government Blocks Leading File-Sharing Services
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2011-07-21, 11:16 | Link #14939 | ||
Moving in circles
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Singapore
Age: 49
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Last edited by TinyRedLeaf; 2011-07-21 at 11:32. |
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2011-07-21, 12:42 | Link #14940 | |
blinded by blood
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current affairs, discussion, international |
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