Devil May Cry V [PS4/XB1/PC]

[Chaos2Frozen]

Originally Posted by Mad Pierrot

So if the twitter is right, Capcom changed two big things about the system. Devil Trigger is only available to restore health as healing items have been removed. Oh boy :/

Not just healing stars, all consumables seem to have been removed.

Devil Trigger and green orbs are the only way to heal now.

You also have white orbs to recharge Devil Trigger meter since Devil Stars are more likely not around anymore.

[Kanon]

Originally Posted by Chaos2Frozen

Yeah, you can't buy power in DMC because there aren't any skills that increases your damage. You'll just be left with a bunch of moves that you don't know how to use.

Not to mention most of the important stuff are still lock behind story progression so you are never progressing faster than what is expected of you.

Skills do help a lot once you master them. The problem is that they might make it so that the best skills will require a ridiculous amount of grinding to be obtained within the game, encouraging players to pay for them.

[foxbox360]

Originally Posted by Chaos2Frozen

Not just healing stars, all consumables seem to have been removed.

Devil Trigger and green orbs are the only way to heal now.

You also have white orbs to recharge Devil Trigger meter since Devil Stars are more likely not around anymore.

So it similar to the focus meter from spider-man ps4, where you press the down directional button to heal.

[Westlo]

Originally Posted by Kanon

Skills do help a lot once you master them. The problem is that they might make it so that the best skills will require a ridiculous amount of grinding to be obtained within the game, encouraging players to pay for them.

It's exactly the same system as DMC4SE.....

[Chaos2Frozen]

Originally Posted by foxbox360

So it similar to the focus meter from spider-man ps4, where you press the down directional button to heal.

Well not exactly. Devil Triggers have more utility than just to heal.

1. You have hyper armor and can't be flinched (still take damage)
2. Your attacks increased damage
3. Some skills gain new properties (multi hits, faster dodge)
4. You regen health for the duration

And most importantly you can choose when you have to go in and out of Devil Trigger, you don't have to burn the whole bar if you don't want to.

[Chaos2Frozen]

Originally Posted by Kanon

Skills do help a lot once you master them. The problem is that they might make it so that the best skills will require a ridiculous amount of grinding to be obtained within the game, encouraging players to pay for them.

The thing with DMC is what counts as 'best skills'? Having Dance Macabre and Overdrive may seem powerful but you're more likely to use Stinger and Aerial rave most of the time because they're faster and more all rounder and you get them really early.

But I get what you're saying though and I think it really is a matter of perception rather than reality. Right now the existence of MTX for red orbs just throws a lot of things into question and the perception of the game is warped.

[Tactics]

I imagine it would be like this:

Boss A has armor you have to break to deal damage, otherwise you need to wait until he opened the armor after some time.
Meanwhile some skills like X, Y and Z skills can have armor break property if you upgraded it with large amount of orbs; without extensive grinding, you can only have one of it upgraded to get that armor break property.

So its more like option to make it easier while its not entirely necessary.
My guess, the real target of the orbs selling are people aiming for fast upgrade, or every possible fastest SSS combo to clear the stage in one go.
It may also serve as a way to sell classic weapons like Agni & Rudra or Pandora so it didn't have to be a DLC while also taking benefit from those who didn't want to grind extensively just to get the weapons.

[Chaos2Frozen]

Originally Posted by Tactics

I imagine it would be like this:

Boss A has armor you have to break to deal damage, otherwise you need to wait until he opened the armor after some time.
Meanwhile some skills like X, Y and Z skills can have armor break property if you upgraded it with large amount of orbs; without extensive grinding, you can only have one of it upgraded to get that armor break property.

So its more like option to make it easier while its not entirely necessary.
My guess, the real target of the orbs selling are people aiming for fast upgrade, or every possible fastest SSS combo to clear the stage in one go.
It may also serve as a way to sell classic weapons like Agni & Rudra or Pandora so it didn't have to be a DLC while also taking benefit from those who didn't want to grind extensively just to get the weapons.

That's extremely unlikely as DMC is not an RPG with different 'attack properties'. And when they do try something like that it was unanimously rejected by the players (see DmC red/blue enemies).

Plus any boss where you have to "do a thing" before you can hurt it isn't a good design anyway. When it's done right you have that Cavalier Angelo boss fight in the Dante's gameplay video

YouTube

https://youtu.be/GybAHKk21Mk

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The boss has a shield but you have different options to circumvent it.

[Chaos2Frozen]

Monkey Business

YouTube

https://youtu.be/nSLKAd7m5Z0

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[Shadow5YA]

Originally Posted by Chaos2Frozen

The thing with DMC is what counts as 'best skills'? Having Dance Macabre and Overdrive may seem powerful but you're more likely to use Stinger and Aerial rave most of the time because they're faster and more all rounder and you get them really early.

But I get what you're saying though and I think it really is a matter of perception rather than reality. Right now the existence of MTX for red orbs just throws a lot of things into question and the perception of the game is warped.

In DMC4, essential skills like Skystar for mobility and evasion on Dante and Ex/Max ACT for Nero's offense are locked behind orbs.

It's not that the microtransactions are predatory, since we lack information on the details like pricing to make that judgment.

The bigger issue is that the orb system itself is outdated and grindy, but instead of fixing the progression system to be more convenient and less grindy, they just throw a price tag on it and expect players to pay and cover for its flaws. With 4SE you could give Capcom and Itsuno the benefit of the doubt since they were more or less remastering an old game, but with DMC5 being an entirely new entry, there's no excuse.

[Chaos2Frozen]

Originally Posted by Shadow5YA

In DMC4, essential skills like Skystar for mobility and evasion on Dante and Ex/Max ACT for Nero's offense are locked behind orbs.

It's not that the microtransactions are predatory, since we lack information on the details like pricing to make that judgment.

The bigger issue is that the orb system itself is outdated and grindy, but instead of fixing the progression system to be more convenient and less grindy, they just throw a price tag on it and expect players to pay and cover for its flaws. With 4SE you could give Capcom and Itsuno the benefit of the doubt since they were more or less remastering an old game, but with DMC5 being an entirely new entry, there's no excuse.

Outdated? Collecting resource for progression is still as recent as the last Soulslike game. And by all accounts of people who have played the demo said the number of Orbs you earn per mission have drastically increase, not to mention the inclusion of Orb generating equipment like the Faust Hat.

It's well accepted that Dante's moveset wasn't well thought up for the game, but referring to Max Act as an 'essential skill' is a bit much. It's essential for high level play but not something for newcomers to worry about, hence why it's locked behind progression. The basic Ex-Act that you get for free is enough to get started.

--------------------------

I think a lot of people just have a misconception about power progression in DMC either because they are thinking of it in terms of an RPG or they just haven’t been exposed to a time before Dark Souls (lol)

1) DMC still gates their power progression through story mode. Meaning the Devs have control over what kind of power you will have at any given time in the game. Meaning you physically can’t get that OP devil breaker until they want you to get it.

2) because you can buy whichever skills of a power (provided you unlocked it in the story) they would have to design each encounters assuming you have any and every available power at your disposal. Meaning even if you have real impact with Balrog as soon as you get it, it’s all being factored into their plan.

Essentially if the Devs are doing their job it’s impossible for you to progress beyond what they have intended.

[Shadow5YA]

Originally Posted by Chaos2Frozen

Outdated? Collecting resource for progression is still as recent as the last Soulslike game. And by all accounts of people who have played the demo said the number of Orbs you earn per mission have drastically increase, not to mention the inclusion of Orb generating equipment like the Faust Hat.

It's well accepted that Dante's moveset wasn't well thought up for the game, but referring to Max Act as an 'essential skill' is a bit much. It's essential for high level play but not something for newcomers to worry about, hence why it's locked behind progression. The basic Ex-Act that you get for free is enough to get started.

That analogy is not really accurate considering in every FromSoft Souls game you are given a weapon's full arsenal, not even mentioning the fact that Sekiro removed such stat/leveling parameters anyway. Your damage will vary according to your build, but it's not like you are forbidden from using your R2 move unless you invest in a hefty amount of Souls/Blood Echoes.

Also, ability progression is not necessarily the same thing as power/equipment progression.

Originally Posted by Chaos2Frozen

I think a lot of people just have a misconception about power progression in DMC either because they are thinking of it in terms of an RPG or they just haven’t been exposed to a time before Dark Souls (lol)

1) DMC still gates their power progression through story mode. Meaning the Devs have control over what kind of power you will have at any given time in the game. Meaning you physically can’t get that OP devil breaker until they want you to get it.

2) because you can buy whichever skills of a power (provided you unlocked it in the story) they would have to design each encounters assuming you have any and every available power at your disposal. Meaning even if you have real impact with Balrog as soon as you get it, it’s all being factored into their plan.

Essentially if the Devs are doing their job it’s impossible for you to progress beyond what they have intended.

I can turn this back onto you. If you are allowed to buy your way to unlocking a majority of their moves early into the game, then clearly the devs did not think orb grinding was an essential progression mechanic of the game.

All you're telling me is that it's okay because they also have story related progression too

[Chaos2Frozen]

Originally Posted by Shadow5YA

That analogy is not really accurate considering in every FromSoft Souls game you are given a weapon's full arsenal, not even mentioning the fact that Sekiro removed such stat/leveling parameters anyway. Your damage will vary according to your build, but it's not like you are forbidden from using your R2 move unless you invest in a hefty amount of Souls/Blood Echoes.

Also, ability progression is not necessarily the same thing as power/equipment progression.

But you're forbidden from even using that weapon properly if you don't have the right arbitrary number in whatever stats. At least you will be able to use any weapons to you pick up in DMC. That's the progression blocker.

I'm not arguing which is better, I'm saying it's hardly an outdated concept at all. Even shitty open world games still have progression. As for why even have a progression system... Because it feels good to see your character improve as you play- That concept hasn't changed one bit.

Originally Posted by Shadow5YA

I can turn this back onto you. If you are allowed to buy your way to unlocking a majority of their moves early into the game, then clearly the devs did not think orb grinding was an essential progression mechanic of the game.

All you're telling me is that it's okay because they also have story related progression too

Because if you give a newcomer everything right off the bat without giving them time to get used to the basics of the game they would be overwhelmed immediately. We see this with Monster Hunter World where a common criticism is that they introduce too many mechanics too fast. That's why Dante in DMC5 now lets you bring as many or as little weapons as you want.

The system in DMC is good because it lets players have control over what they want to learn/use next. Expert players would want to get everything and that's fine- those same experts wouldn't have problem getting orbs to begin with anyway because 1) they're good at the game which means they would get more orbs and 2) they would be practicing a lot to learn the system.

Another reason is because orbs are a good incentive to do more than just the basic requirement of the game. You're encourage to play better and explore more because you'll get more orbs, getting more orbs equals getting more upgrades faster, getting more upgrades means having more options in the game, which in turn means more fun.

[Mad Pierrot]

So apparently there is a super limited edition of the game that comes with Dante's expensive jacket. Sadly, the jacket is about 185cms long so I don't think it would fit in many people.

[Chaos2Frozen]

Originally Posted by Mad Pierrot

So apparently there is a super limited edition of the game that comes with Dante's expensive jacket. Sadly, the jacket is about 185cms long so I don't think it would fit in many people.

You can choose any of their jackets.

Nero's jacket you can even choose if you want damage or no damage.

[Mad Pierrot]

Images

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[Kanon]

I kind of regret watching the recent trailers. They're full of spoilers. It's my fault, I should have known better. Already got a good idea about V's identity.

[Kafriel]

Doesn't V stand for Vergil? Anyway, on the matter of orb grinding, having played a ton of games, I think the best solution is what team Ninja did in Nioh: you might need 7 billion exp to get from LV699 to LV700, but it is easily grindable in less than 5 minutes (albeit in the DLC campaign, which essentially also doubles the level limit), in contrast to souls games where raising stats after a certain threshold is just a pain in the NG++++++++++ ass.

I don't consider DMC a grindy game - I do a blind run on normal, get at least 90% done in hard and then hit DMD for perfect runs, at which point I have everything unlocked. What I DO mind is the press-and-hold function for angel/demon weapons and how awkward it is to combo properly with them. DMC3's two-weapon toggle system was the best IMO.

[Mad Pierrot]

Originally Posted by Kafriel

Doesn't V stand for Vergil? Anyway, on the matter of orb grinding, having played a ton of games, I think the best solution is what team Ninja did in Nioh: you might need 7 billion exp to get from LV699 to LV700, but it is easily grindable in less than 5 minutes (albeit in the DLC campaign, which essentially also doubles the level limit), in contrast to souls games where raising stats after a certain threshold is just a pain in the NG++++++++++ ass.

I don't consider DMC a grindy game - I do a blind run on normal, get at least 90% done in hard and then hit DMD for perfect runs, at which point I have everything unlocked. What I DO mind is the press-and-hold function for angel/demon weapons and how awkward it is to combo properly with them. DMC3's two-weapon toggle system was the best IMO.

What? The game has the angel demon system from the reboot? But yeah, grinding might be necessary if you aim for a higher difficulty or you need to buy items (which apparently won't be in the game)

[Kafriel]

Well, from the trailer, it sure seems that way, although in the Nelo Angelo battle there is a weapon scrolling bar on the bottom right corner...