|
View Poll Results: Who is the ultimate shinobi? | |||
The 1st | 24 | 5.99% | |
The 2nd | 3 | 0.75% | |
Sarutobi | 117 | 29.18% | |
The 4th | 119 | 29.68% | |
Jiraiya | 27 | 6.73% | |
Orochimaru | 10 | 2.49% | |
Tsunde | 4 | 1.00% | |
Itachi | 73 | 18.20% | |
Other...[Please State Who] | 24 | 5.99% | |
Voters: 401. You may not vote on this poll |
|
Thread Tools |
2004-08-21, 12:49 | Link #201 | ||
The mac
|
Quote:
Quote:
I agree that Sarutobi was probably the strongest in his prime. Iruka said this explicitly, and Orochimaru of course called him the 'god of the shinobi.' I do think however, had Yondaime had time to enter his prime, he would've surpassed the 3rd. I mean, by his early twenties he had created arguably the ultimate jutsu in Naruto (Shiki Fuujin) and the Rasengan. Not to mention he had an incredible chakra capacity (summoned Gamabunta), and great sealing ability. (Jiraiya remarked how precise the Kyuubi's seal was, wheras he could tell immediately the roughness of Orochimaru's seal). Unfortunatley, since his life was cut short, we won't ever know his true strength unless Kishimoto delves into his past. |
||
2004-08-21, 14:35 | Link #202 | ||
Bubbly and super fun
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Doesn't look like Kansas
|
Quote:
Quote:
Now did Yondaime would have become stronger (and I mean significantly stronger) than the Sannin and possibly than the God of the Shinobi himself at his best? Maybe, how can I know? How can you know? But we talk about what they are or were, not what they could have been. |
||
2004-08-21, 19:13 | Link #203 | |||||
The mac
|
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Last edited by Macbrother; 2004-08-21 at 19:23. |
|||||
2004-08-21, 20:18 | Link #204 | |
Junior Member
Join Date: Aug 2004
|
Quote:
As for the 4th and 3rd, we can really ever know for sure, since the 4th died at such a younge age.. so think what you like. Oro's immortality thingy is to prevent weakness from old age, but also, it will alow him to live theorticly forever, in which case he could train and invent new techniqques until he is more or less untouchable. And my point still stand on naruto, even though its yet to be challanged |
|
2004-08-21, 20:55 | Link #205 | |||
Bubbly and super fun
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Doesn't look like Kansas
|
Quote:
You said that Anko seemed to think that Oro wouldn't be a problem if the 4th was alive which is simply completely wrong. The 3rd was saying that no-one could stand up against Oro in Konoha including most likely himself anymore and Anko just said 'if the 4th was still alive', ie there would be someone able to stand up against Oro. You implied that this sentence made look the 4th stronger than Oro whereas it merely shows that the 4th could fight equally against him. Quote:
And they're totally like athlete and just like human in general, they didn't level down at ~25 because they have the experience of veterans, but they aren't in their prime anymore. And it didn't take 50 years for the 3rd to establish his legend, like the strength of the Sannin was legendary whereas Tsunade quits being a Ninja since what? 25~30 years old? Quote:
|
|||
2004-08-21, 21:21 | Link #206 | |||||
The mac
|
Quote:
Quote:
Kakashi could abosolutely increase his ability through experience and learning more jutsu. Yes, he is at peak physical condition right now, but being slightly slower and weaker at 35 but having much better jutsu or chakra capacity (which increases with experience, but doesn't seem to level off until way up in age, the sannin for instance at 50 still have a ridiculous amount) could make him more than twice as strong as he was 10 years ago. Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
|
|||||
2004-08-21, 21:32 | Link #207 | |
Senior Member
|
Quote:
Yup, we know this for sure because we saw this fight. I mean we know how Gai fights, and we know how Itachi fights.............oh wait.......we don't. Granted I don't think Gai would win, but who knows maybe he can, I mean I'm sure he's just as fast as Itachi. Don't make it sound so one sided |
|
2004-08-21, 22:03 | Link #208 | ||||||
Bubbly and super fun
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Doesn't look like Kansas
|
Quote:
And not that the 4th was so strong than nobody could attack the Leaf, heck the war ended just 10 years ago. Quote:
Why the most powerful shinobi of Konoha are over their fifty? Maybe because they're the God of the Shinobi and the Legendary Sannin. They're not strong because they're old, they're strong because they were so strong that they remain the strongest even in their oldness. How many strong old ninjas did you see except them? None. And yeah Sarutobi was way much stronger when he was younger. Quote:
Quote:
Experience can beat the strength of youth but there are limits to that, just re-read the last fight of the 3rd who lacked of chakra and thought that it was difficult to hold Enma in Kongou form. Quote:
The chakra is produced from stamina, which you lose with your physical condition. Quote:
He was called like that simply because he was the best ever. Bringing the Sannin is meaningless? You said that the 4th was too young to have built his legend, I say that around the same age the Sannin were already legendary, it's exactly the same. There isn't a time scale saying : -Fantastic ninja : 5 years. -Hero : 10 years. -Legendary : 20 years. -God of the Shinobi : 35 years. It's a matter of strength and actions, not time. |
||||||
2004-08-21, 22:39 | Link #209 | ||||
The mac
|
Quote:
The point of that message was that shinobi are very much unlike athletes. Athletes are tied almost solely to their physical condition, which starts to noticably decline at 35 or a bit before. Shinobi, however, are not solely bound to their physical condition. Even at the age of 50, they still retain knowledge of all of their jutsu, most of their chakra and even sharper intellect and can compete on the level or greater than shinobi much younger than them. This is not the case with an athlete. Assume, for a minute, that Orochimaru is in his same 50 year old body. Do you think the Orochimaru of 25 could defeat the Orochimaru of 50, who has now Edo Tensei, much more experience, sharper wit, and whatever more jutsu he has picked up and/or created over 25 years? Hardly. Why? Because physical ability alone plays a much lesser role in shinobi strength than an athlete. As for the Sarutobi/Orochimaru fight, yes, Sarutobi at 67 had lost much of his ability. But that is well beyond the age range of what we are discussing. In fact, Orochimaru admitted that he would probably lose to a Sarutobi who was merely 10 years younger. It appears that even at the age of 50ish shinobi still retain much if not most of their ability. Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Last edited by Macbrother; 2004-08-21 at 22:50. |
||||
2004-08-21, 23:19 | Link #210 |
日本語を食べません!
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: San Francisco
Age: 41
|
Rather than athletes, I would compare ninja to martial artists. (Surprised no one else mentioned this so far.)
While physical conditioning is a huge factor, experience comes into play here and so yes, some of the best MA's alive are indeed waaay older than 25. For the record, though, I agree with Hunter - part of the mystique of the Sannin is that they are this strong despite their age AND (in Jiraiya and Tsunade's cases) not being active for so many years. One can only wonder how strong they were in their mid-30's, still full-time shinobi and a dedicated team. Yondaime's age - that's a tough one. My first thoughts were that he would be of similar age to Mitarashi Anko, since she was trained by Oro who is in the same age bracket as Jiraiya. But, Anko is 24 years old - younger than Kakashi. So, looking at it a different way, Kakashi = 26. Jiraiya = 50. Yondaime - (if alive, would be) somewhere in between. (26+50)/2 = 38 y.o. |
2004-08-21, 23:32 | Link #211 | |
The mac
|
Quote:
|
|
2004-08-21, 23:42 | Link #213 |
Destroyer of Dreams
|
No one can really say anything about the way Oro fights because we haven't really seen him fight at full strength. During the Sarutobi Vs. Oro fight he had the previous Hokages do his bidding for him, and against Jiraiya he was missing his arms.
He briefly fought Sarutobi in Melee combat thats about all if memory serves. If anyone mentions his fight against Sasuke I will slap them through a wall. If you think he was going all out you would have to be as biased as Lost World. Edit - Sarutobi was the Third Hokage and Yondaime was the Fourth Hokage, Osmoses. |
2004-08-22, 02:52 | Link #214 |
Head of the Akatsuki
|
I voted for the fourth.
I would like to know exactly why everyone is convinced that Itachi is SO powerful. I would like to point out that Gai can defeat Itachi. Itachi's strength lies in his Sharingan, so an opponent skilled in Taijutsu deprives him of his "seeing" advantage. Also, Itachi's best techniques require his opponent to make eye contact. An opponent who doesn't need to see, such as Zabuza in the mist, or one who can read movement without looking at the face, such as Gai, who watches footwork, eliminates the possibility of Itachi's most powerful techniques having effect. His abilities, while devastating, have too many easy counters to make him an effective fighter. He is far too specialized a fighter to be considered, in my opinion, the strongest, or even one of the strongest.
Next, I will attempt to explain why I believe the fourth is the strongest. As seen in the Orochimaru/Sandaime battle, the soul-sealing technique requires the soul of the opponent to be forcibly removed from the opponent. This requires a certain degree of restraining the opponent while their soul is removed, and also requires the spiritual and physical energies to actually overwhelm the opponent. This said, the fourth had to have had, to some degree, power surpassing that of the Kyuubi, a power which allowed him to forcefully rip the spirit of the Kyuubi from its body and transplant it elsewhere. This suggests that the use of his mental and physical resources, applied against a lesser opponent than the great demon fox, would be simply devastating. His power was so great that the current hokage, Sarutobi, granted him the title of hokage upon his death, an acknowledgement of both his sacrifice for Konoha and of his great power and achievement. |
2004-08-22, 03:22 | Link #215 | |
Head of the Akatsuki
|
Quote:
Gai is quite a match for Itachi. As a pure-taijutsu fighter, part of Gai's expertise lies in being able to follow movement by watching the body, not the face. And unlike genjutsu and other forms of attack, the sharingan eyes cannot see through a taijutsu attack. With both of his major advantages gone, Itachi might still present a challenge, but for a master of speed and power like Gai, that challenge is equivalent to fighting Kakashi. As seen in the fight between Kakashi and Itachi, Itachi's only true advantage lies in his superior use of the Sharingan. Keep in mind that Gai has 50 wins to Kakashi's 49, though it's quite possible that that's the win count for the rock-paper-scissors games they play... |
|
2004-08-22, 03:29 | Link #216 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: May 2004
|
Quote:
Sharingan is an advantage against taijutsu, as it allows you to read and predict your opponent's movement and defend accordingly. When Lee was fighting Sasuke, Sasuke's body was too slow to react, and thus couldn't deal with it. This is not a flaw inherent to the Sharingan, just a lack of skill by Sasuke. Keep in mind Kakashi, who cannot even use the Sharingan to its full extent, can keep up with Gai's speed, seeing as how they are rivals of about equal skill. If Kakashi can deal with Gai, then Itachi, who is far more skilled and has absolutely mastered the Sharingan, should also be able to. We have also seen little of Itachi's non-Sharingan skills, but during their fight, Kakashi understood that Itachi wasn't going all out, yet he was still untouched while Kakashi's defeat was imminent. Itachi used his Sharingan the first time to show off to Kakashi and the second time to escape an otherwise inescapable jutsu. We'll have to see him fight more before we can judge his skills, but he was able to wipe out the entire Uchiha clan and still have the energy to use the Mangekyou Sharingan, so it's obviously not the only weapon he has. I don't know how the fourth would be able to hold Kyuubi while he pulled its soul out. Kyuubi's power is shown to be far greater than anything else introduced in the series so far, so I don't think the fourth got up close and personal to Kyuubi when he sealed it. Even if he did, more than likely with the help of Gamabunta to restrain Kyuubi, and not his strength alone. To be able to seal Kyuubi does show a lot of strength, but I don't think he had to grab Kyuubi by it's shoulders while he was sealing it the way Sarutobi did with the others. Also, he became Hokage before Kyuubi attacked. |
|
2004-08-22, 09:08 | Link #217 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Apr 2004
|
Itachi is extremely powerful.
However there are many many ways to fight the sharingan. As gai pointed out, you can avoid the sharingan useres eyes. You can fight like zabuza did by concealing yourself in mist. The 2'nd hokage's jutsu of complete darkness would also work well. In other words there are various ways to counter Itachi's powrful doujutu (eye genjutsu). Kakashi's mistake was that he naively tried to take it on eye for eye. We have seen that sannin are not to be fooled around with. Tsunade is friggen regenerating entire body parts, Jiraiya is using some crazy giant jutsus like that swamp of the underworld he summoned to drown oro's snakes. ETC. Simply put. We cannot place itachi versus the other sannin or hokages because we dont know how good itachi is without his sharingan. Is his taijutsu better than Gai's ? Highly doubt it. Better than tsunade's ? Highly doubt it. Itachi is my favourite character but at this point i do not think he is the strongest Ninja of all time. From what we have seen Itachi is very honest and to the point. He never beats around the bush and he said it with his own mouth to Kisame in regards to jiraiya. "We would both likely die even if we faced him together" One on one, in their prime, i doubt itachi could beat any of the sannin. But the keyword here is "prime" The sannin are much older now, and Itachi \himself is going to get even stronger in the next few years. Orochimaru is scared of itachi because of the number of jutsu itachi knows. To oro jutsu number represents strength. He has made this clear several tiimes. |
2004-08-22, 09:19 | Link #218 |
Gaara's absolute defence.
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Somewhere in Finland
|
The wolf of mibu has good points, but I still think that Itachi is going to be Legendary strong in his prime.... So my vote goes for Itachi ... but I might be wrong ..
Sad that Gaara wasn't on vote list because my top 4 for future ninjas's is: Naruto, Sasuke, Gaara and Neji Everyone showing great potential and because I believe Gaara is going to be Kazekage in the future.. |
2004-08-22, 10:14 | Link #219 | |||
Cool as a Cucumber
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Holland
|
Quote:
Even if Gai found a way to avoid his Look. The fact remains he still has it. His speed and incredible jutu's could force Gai and Tsunade too for that matter in a situation where they cannot escape his Sharingan. Quote:
Quote:
My point being, Itachi is the strongest character we've seen so far. |
|||
2004-08-22, 11:53 | Link #220 | ||||
Senior Member
Join Date: Apr 2004
|
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Just the same way that Itachi saying Jiraiya will hand kisame and him their asses, isnt neccessarily true. Quote:
Weve seen itachi kick sasukes ass. Weve seen itachi run from jiraiya. Ofcourse there are reasons for all of this, like itachi was low on chakra. But my point is you cannot say he is the strongest character when we have not even seen what he can truly do nor have we seen him face anyone stronger than a jounin. Personally i believe Itachi is extremely strong obviously, but at his current age he is still not as powerful as the sannin were in their prime. But thats just my opinion. All I can say is that when naruto hits his prime, he will be the god of all shinobi ^^. Not just because he is the main chracter but because by then his knowledge, spirit, and kyubi mastery will make him unstoppable. |
||||
|
|