(CR) Hunter X Hunter Anime (2011)

[Dextro]

Originally Posted by Dengar

You know, rather than ignoring every single word I have to say, the least you can do is actually read it and provide some kind of valid counterargument (if one even exists). Radiation poisoning cannot be "healed" that easily. This is scientific fact. It's like trying to re-insert bricks into a building that is being wrecked by a wrecking ball. Without actually doing something about the wrecking ball.

He didn't "write himself into a corner". You may not have liked the way he did things, and that's perfectly fine, Togashi is a bit of an oddball in his writing, but I have seen no indication that he did NOT plan the King's death-by-radiation.

If he were to have actually "written himself into a corner", we would have to see one asspull and Deus Ex Machina after the next. Which we didn't.

I did read what you said but kind of missed a full sentence when I wrote that since I was doing two things at once I do think Togashi wrote himself into a corner and that the bloody radiation poisoning, while justifiable, feels very much like the deus ex machina you are claiming not to exist.

Like I said: I mostly agree with you, no need to immediately begin insulting people.

Edit: to clarify. I agree with you and at the same time I can see how the climaxes o this arc can feel a bit cheap. I'm not 100% sure of my opinion yet. That's all.

[Dengar]

If you feel insulted then I'm sorry, I might have overreacted a little. Either way, I'm not sure how it is a deus ex machina. I mean it's not like God reached out from the sky and helped our heroes. The fact that his body is getting destroyed from the inside is a very natural result of being irradiated like that. It would be more of a deus ex machina if he were to survive.

[Gan_HOPE326]

Originally Posted by Dengar

You know, rather than ignoring every single word I have to say, the least you can do is actually read it and provide some kind of valid counterargument (if one even exists). Radiation poisoning cannot be "healed" that easily. This is scientific fact. It's like trying to re-insert bricks into a building that is being wrecked by a wrecking ball. Without actually doing something about the wrecking ball.

He didn't "write himself into a corner". You may not have liked the way he did things, and that's perfectly fine, Togashi is a bit of an oddball in his writing, but I have seen no indication that he did NOT plan the King's death-by-radiation.

If he were to have actually "written himself into a corner", we would have to see one asspull and Deus Ex Machina after the next. Which we didn't.

Well, the problem is, being burned to near death usually isn't easy to heal either. I definitely see what happened here - the King's Nen allowed for "cellular regeneration" but there are limits to that and it can't fight back against poisoning - he's not Cell (despite looking like it). Maybe if he had an infinite reserve of Royal Guards to feast upon he could repair the damage as it happens, but that clearly's not the case. Of course there is a degree in arbitrarity in deciding that's how his Nen works, but definitely it's far from a total asspull like the ones so often seen in Bleach and Naruto.

[hamazura]

why are you bitching about someone actually dying because of nuke radiation... and said it was an asspull, heck, its the most logical thing to happen

[Arkeus]

Originally Posted by Gan_HOPE326

Well, the problem is, being burned to near death usually isn't easy to heal either. I definitely see what happened here - the King's Nen allowed for "cellular regeneration" but there are limits to that and it can't fight back against poisoning - he's not Cell (despite looking like it). Maybe if he had an infinite reserve of Royal Guards to feast upon he could repair the damage as it happens, but that clearly's not the case. Of course there is a degree in arbitrarity in deciding that's how his Nen works, but definitely it's far from a total asspull like the ones so often seen in Bleach and Naruto.

...But the king didn't /heal/, he /consumed/ the body of his two royal guards and rebuilt himself using them.

That's not healing, and you don't get non-irradiated by using irradiated people as a template to rebuild yourself.

Also, folks should keep in mind that Togashi writes his manga by batch, each batch being already mostly pre-drawn before he begins it (basically, you can tell when he gets to the end of the pre-drawn material when the quality suddenly drops).

The whole nuke and poisoning were both part of the same batch, and very close together.

[Gan_HOPE326]

Originally Posted by Arkeus

...But the king didn't /heal/, he /consumed/ the body of his two royal guards and rebuilt himself using them.

That's not healing, and you don't get non-irradiated by using irradiated people as a template to rebuild yourself.

You can't really use people, irradiated or not, as a template to rebuild yourself after being that horribly charred and mutilated by being at the core of a nuclear explosion. So it's fantasy either way, and how it works, or whether it cures or not radiation poisoning, is up to the author's choices. This choice makes sense if you interpret what happened in one way (i.e. the King literally rebuilt himself by transforming his underlings' cells into his own), but that's as outrageous a biological process as self-cleansing yourself from radiations anyway. It's still something that you need to accept at face value. I'm okay with it and I think it is consistent but let's not fool ourselves by discussing it as if it was more "scientific" than it happening the other way around (i.e. the King just shrugging off the radiation poisoning).

Originally Posted by Arkeus

Also, folks should keep in mind that Togashi writes his manga by batch, each batch being already mostly pre-drawn before he begins it (basically, you can tell when he gets to the end of the pre-drawn material when the quality suddenly drops).

The whole nuke and poisoning were both part of the same batch, and very close together.

That's exactly what people thinks about when they talk about poor planning or writing himself in a corner. The issue is whether Togashi had a rough draft of what was to happen long before writing this part, or if he just arrived at it with no idea of how to kill off the king and then just decided "oh, fuck it, let's nuke him, it's the only way to be sure". Either way the story came out as being consistent at least with its own theme so I'm okay with it. By comparison, see Naruto where Kishimoto clearly has no idea of how to get rid of the increasingly uberpowered final bosses he keeps throwing at his own heroes and is now pitting them against an uberpowered alien goddess who's brought Instrumentality over the planet or something.

[RollingPenguin]

I really like the whole radiation poisoning story element.It brilliantly brings out Togashi's anthropologically pessimistic worldview,that was present in the entire Chimera Ants arc.It is sort of like the beginning of "2001: A Space Odyssey" , the thing that makes human beings what they are , is the ability to evolve through destruction.

[Arkeus]

Originally Posted by Gan_HOPE326

You can't really use people, irradiated or not, as a template to rebuild yourself after being that horribly charred and mutilated by being at the core of a nuclear explosion. So it's fantasy either way, and how it works, or whether it cures or not radiation poisoning, is up to the author's choices. This choice makes sense if you interpret what happened in one way (i.e. the King literally rebuilt himself by transforming his underlings' cells into his own), but that's as outrageous a biological process as self-cleansing yourself from radiations anyway. It's still something that you need to accept at face value. I'm okay with it and I think it is consistent but let's not fool ourselves by discussing it as if it was more "scientific" than it happening the other way around (i.e. the King just shrugging off the radiation poisoning).

No one's talking real world science, people are talking about consistency within the manga itself, and as you say it's consistent with the King's Hatsu that we learned of like 4 years prior to that, and it's also consistent with how the king got their Hatsus and is connected with them.

That's exactly what people thinks about when they talk about poor planning or writing himself in a corner. The issue is whether Togashi had a rough draft of what was to happen long before writing this part, or if he just arrived at it with no idea of how to kill off the king and then just decided "oh, fuck it, let's nuke him, it's the only way to be sure". Either way the story came out as being consistent at least with its own theme so I'm okay with it. By comparison, see Naruto where Kishimoto clearly has no idea of how to get rid of the increasingly uberpowered final bosses he keeps throwing at his own heroes and is now pitting them against an uberpowered alien goddess who's brought Instrumentality over the planet or something.

That's not what they are talking about:
1°)The nuke was put into play way back when Netero mentionned this place was a weapon-testing site- and that's like 2 years before the nuke was actually used in real time.

2°)The radiation was drawn at the same time the nuke was drawn, so there was never a time where Togashi went 'oops, he shouldn't have survived'. Him surviving and him not being healed from radiation were drawn together.

[Haak]

It does seem circumspect to me that Meruem could regenerate from charred ruins but succumb to radiation poisoning but it's all kinda ambiguous to me anyway.

Thematically speaking, I like the idea that the most powerful antagonists we've seen yet are done in by such an anti-climactic manner. I haven't always liked the anti-climactic routes this show has taken but I definitely like this one.

From a world building point of view, it's also nice to know that nen doesn't solve everything and even nen users are still vulnerable to forces of politicians with weapons of mass destructions.

I also liked the moral contemplating at least until Palm made it a bit too clear cut by declaring they're no different to the ants. I have no doubt that our protagonists represent some sinister people but even with the nuke and all, it's still informed. The Chimera ants were actually committing mass genocide. At the very least I'd say it's a bit more open to interpretation than I feel the story wants to make it, but I understand that there is a fair bit of values dissonance here what with nukes having a significant historical influence in Japanese perceptions to say the least.

[Gan_HOPE326]

Originally Posted by Arkeus

No one's talking real world science, people are talking about consistency within the manga itself, and as you say it's consistent with the King's Hatsu that we learned of like 4 years prior to that, and it's also consistent with how the king got their Hatsus and is connected with them.

That's not what they are talking about:
1°)The nuke was put into play way back when Netero mentionned this place was a weapon-testing site- and that's like 2 years before the nuke was actually used in real time.

2°)The radiation was drawn at the same time the nuke was drawn, so there was never a time where Togashi went 'oops, he shouldn't have survived'. Him surviving and him not being healed from radiation were drawn together.

Ah, okay, so you actually meant the opposite I thought you meant, sorry about that. About regeneration being consistent with the King's Hatsu, that's arguable, since the Hatsu is just that he can increase his own Nen by eating other Nen users. Regeneration takes that a step further. But then again, as I said, I am okay with it, I just saw that some people here (not you) are trying to play the "SCIENCE!" card which seems fairly ridiculous to me.

Originally Posted by Haak

I also liked the moral contemplating at least until Palm made it a bit too clear cut by declaring they're no different to the ants. I have no doubt that our protagonists represent some sinister people but even with the nuke and all, it's still informed. The Chimera ants were actually committing mass genocide. At the very least I'd say it's a bit more open to interpretation than I feel the story wants to make it, but I understand that there is a fair bit of values dissonance here what with nukes having a significant historical influence in Japanese perceptions to say the least.

Well, they are in the middle of all this emotional turmoil after all, and no matter what they think, they still are doing it. They're just feeling shit about it, which is understandable. Doesn't mean that they don't think the Ants are a menace to mankind. They are just acknowledging how incredibly underhanded and sneaky they're being in taking them out and feeling like the villains of the situation, even though they're acting purely on survival instinct. I guess it's the point of war in general: maybe you fight to defend your country, and maybe if you hadn't fought your town would have been burned to the ground and your family and friends slaughtered, but that doesn't mean that you'll feel heroic about it.

[Arkeus]

Originally Posted by Gan_HOPE326

Ah, okay, so you actually meant the opposite I thought you meant, sorry about that. About regeneration being consistent with the King's Hatsu, that's arguable, since the Hatsu is just that he can increase his own Nen by eating other Nen users. Regeneration takes that a step furthe

Yeah, it would take it a step further.... if he hadn't eaten Youpi, whose Hatsu is manipulation of his body, and Pouf, whose Hatsu is manipulation of his biology.

Hence the whole "It's not healing" thing, as it's unclear whether it's eating that rebuilt him, or simply eating someone whose Hatsu could be used to repair himself.

[Gan_HOPE326]

Originally Posted by Arkeus

Yeah, it would take it a step further.... if he hadn't eaten Youpi, whose Hatsu is manipulation of his body, and Pouf, whose Hatsu is manipulation of his biology.

Hence the whole "It's not healing" thing, as it's unclear whether it's eating that rebuilt him, or simply eating someone whose Hatsu could be used to repair himself.

I'd say the first, he never manifested the Hatsu of people he ate. Otherwise he'd be a power stealer like Chrollo and seriously... that's WAY too OP (as if he already wasn't). I always read his Hatsu as the ability to absorb other people's aura, not necessarily their powers as well.

[Dengar]

Originally Posted by Gan_HOPE326

Ah, okay, so you actually meant the opposite I thought you meant, sorry about that. About regeneration being consistent with the King's Hatsu, that's arguable, since the Hatsu is just that he can increase his own Nen by eating other Nen users. Regeneration takes that a step further. But then again, as I said, I am okay with it, I just saw that some people here (not you) are trying to play the "SCIENCE!" card which seems fairly ridiculous to me.

I'll admit you are correct about that. Regardless, the way I feel about this discussion is that I find it rather hard to swallow that someone views something, that is totally possible considering the circumstances, as an ass pull. And providing a somewhat rational explanation (despite the awkward mesh of in-universe ridiculousness and real-world "science") does not seem all too fallacious to me.

To put it this way: If his regeneration also somehow completely expelled any radioactive material from his body, he would not have died. However, he is actually dying, therefore it's only logical to assume that this is exactly what didn't happen. I find my "putting bricks back in a building that is currently being wrecked" analogy pretty rational.

Instead of playing the "ass pull" card, people should just admit that they are put off by the fact that the plot is getting a rather "un-shonen" resolution. And I don't think there's any shame in feeling that way.

[Gan_HOPE326]

Originally Posted by Dengar

I'll admit you are correct about that. Regardless, the way I feel about this discussion is that I find it rather hard to swallow that someone views something, that is totally possible considering the circumstances, as an ass pull. And providing a somewhat rational explanation (despite the awkward mesh of in-universe ridiculousness and real-world "science") does not seem all too fallacious to me.

Yeah, it's just that it is sort of a borderline example. It's just how storytelling works - your characters may be able to do impossible things, but you need to KNOW they can do them before it becomes CRUCIAL that they do them, or it'll feel like an asspull. In Dragonball Z, Majin Bu had huge regenerative powers but it was established so since the very beginning of his saga, and so every time it was just "oh, well, he's putting himself together again". It was an established ability of the character and it was made clear pretty soon that the only way to kill him would have been to disintegrate him on a fundamental level, destroying every single cell in his body. Here, the problem is: was it sufficiently foreshadowed that the King's ability worked in such a way that it could heal wounds but not radiation poisoning?
Some, combining what was shown in the anime with their own knowledge of real world science and understanding of the degree of 'realism' implicit in Togashi's fantasy world, think that was the case.
Some, with the same kind of reasoning, think it was not.
Some, with a completely different reasoning, think that in this way we got an awesome story and also dat hilarious Pouf-Youpi-Meruem threesome so who fucking cares.

[Dengar]

^If you go by that logic, then people should be outraged over the fact that he survived the explosion in the first place, rather than survive it first and only die of radiation later.

Furthermore, I find it quite hard to understand that people are even able to assume that poison can be "healed" by "repairing tissue". As if replacing cells can somehow magically make a radioactive substance disappear. Probably played too many videogames and decided that reality is unrealistic, because Meruem's kung fu is stronger than yours. But maybe that's just where my own inability to empathize comes short.

[Gan_HOPE326]

Originally Posted by Dengar

^If you go by that logic, then people should be outraged over the fact that he survived the explosion in the first place, rather than survive it first and only die of radiation later.

Furthermore, I find it quite hard to understand that people are even able to assume that poison can be "healed" by "repairing tissue". As if replacing cells can somehow magically make a radioactive substance disappear. Probably played too many videogames and decided that reality is unrealistic, because Meruem's kung fu is stronger than yours. But maybe that's just where my own inability to empathize comes short.

Some people WERE outraged by that too.

And well, if you can repair tissue CONTINUOUSLY, then sure, you can survive raditation damage. What is radiation damage if not ionizing particles smashing your elementary biochemistry to bits? If you can regenerate the damaged cells faster than the radiation can destroy them, you're fine. Considering that Chimeras can incorporate DNAs of other species flawlessly in their own genetic code without undergoing horrifying cancerous mutations, I'd say they must be very resilient to harmful mutations already, so it wouldn't be surprising if they were immune or strongly resistant to radiations as well. There are a few examples in nature, but of course they all belong to simpler, smaller organisms:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tardigrade

"Tardigrades can withstand 1,000 times more radiation than other animals,[33] median lethal doses of 5,000 Gy (of gamma rays) and 6,200 Gy (of heavy ions) in hydrated animals (5 to 10 Gy could be fatal to a human).[34] The only explanation found in earlier experiments for this ability was that their lowered water state provides fewer reactants for the ionizing radiation.[35] However, subsequent research found that tardigrades, when hydrated, still remain highly resistant to shortwave UV radiation in comparison to other animals, and that one factor for this is their ability to efficiently repair damage to their DNA resulting from that exposure."

In fact, you might even speculate that that kind of simple immunity is something that Chimeras could have LOST due to incorporating humans in their genome.

[Arkeus]

Originally Posted by Gan_HOPE326

I'd say the first, he never manifested the Hatsu of people he ate.

Well, he didn't manifest the Hatsu of that bodyguard of the 'king' he ate, yeah. He manifested both Pouf and Youpi's Hatsus, though. I guess it's possible he can only copy his royal guard's hatsu, but it makes more sense to me given that the whole Chimera Ant schtick is 'you eat something and steal their unique abilities" that his power actually eat people's Hatsus.

As for the 'nuke' thing... were you reading the manga at the time it happened? it didn't come as 'asspull' to me in part because people had been talking about Netero nuking him (though not deadman switch) for a month or so before hand.

[ChainLegacy]

Originally Posted by Dengar

^If you go by that logic, then people should be outraged over the fact that he survived the explosion in the first place, rather than survive it first and only die of radiation later.

Furthermore, I find it quite hard to understand that people are even able to assume that poison can be "healed" by "repairing tissue". As if replacing cells can somehow magically make a radioactive substance disappear. Probably played too many videogames and decided that reality is unrealistic, because Meruem's kung fu is stronger than yours. But maybe that's just where my own inability to empathize comes short.

You already pulled this argument when I was disappointed a nuke did him in (at the time, not knowing he had survived). It's one or the other: either nen is reality-bending and defies the known laws of physics/biology/etc as we know them, or it doesn't. He clearly defied them by surviving the nuke in the first place. He used magic to do it, basically. So, Togashi's writing the rules - if he wants the King to succumb to radiation poisoning, then that's his call, but you can't say "as if replacing cells can somehow magically make a radioactive substance disappear" - if Togashi had written it that way, the King's "nen infused" cells could make it disappear. Real world logic stretches only as far as he wants it to.

On a different note, radio resistance is a real phenomenon, whereas blocking the impact from a nuclear explosion with nen is not.

[Proto]

Wouldn't it be easier to assume that he got completely healed, then poisoned again after staying in freaking ground 0 while getting healed/surveying the situation before returning to the palace?

I mean, it's fine to pay attention to details, but at this point it feels that you are intentionally ruining the show for yourself.

[Arkeus]

Originally Posted by ChainLegacy

You already pulled this argument when I was disappointed a nuke did him in (at the time, not knowing he had survived). It's one or the other: either nen is reality-bending and defies the known laws of physics/biology/etc as we know them, or it doesn't.

No, no, it's really not one or the others. It could simply that nen /plays/ on those rules, or anything in between.

Everything that happened was consistent with what happened previously, and hinted at much, much earlier. There was no "new information" on anything the King or Netero did- we knew about nukes and deadman switches beforehand, we knew the King absorbed powers by eating people, we knew that Youpi and Pouf could rebuild themselves....

Everything was shown beforehand. If you had asked people, 3 years before the nukes, if Mereum could rebuild hismelf from one, people would have said yes, and presented said scenario. Likewise, people had been talking about Mereum being nuked for a good while before it happened.

Likewise, /it follows the rules of his hatsu/ that the radiation would not be insta-healed.