Senkaku/Diaoyu/Tiaoyutai/Pinnacle Islands dispute

[KiraYamatoFan]

Get in! Still, I'm a little puzzled by this bit:

The commander of the frigate directed his vessel's weapons-targeting radar, based on the Chinese military's rules of engagement, without seeking instructions from the fleet command or navy headquarters

Seriously, I wonder what is a chain of command for during tense situations such as this. Try guessing what the hell they are teaching at the Chinese naval academy in terms of following the chain of command.

[NoemiChan]

Originally Posted by KiraYamatoFan

Seriously, I wonder what is a chain of command for during tense situations such as this. Try guessing what the hell they are teaching at the Chinese naval academy in terms of following the chain of command.

It's the same as the editorial. The newspaper will not be held responsible for the words of the editor... But are willing to support the editorial for his/her rights...

[kuroishinigami]

Journalism at its best. The whole article is basically he-sais-she-said kind of thing without any concrete proof or witness(the only witness is "unidentified" chinese high ranking officer, which could have been me posing as one ), yet it was provocative enough to invite a reaction from certain someone that think that China is one big country full of warmonger instead a country with an agenda to protect its own interest, just like every other big country in the world.

[SaintessHeart]

Originally Posted by KiraYamatoFan

Get in! Still, I'm a little puzzled by this bit:



Seriously, I wonder what is a chain of command for during tense situations such as this. Try guessing what the hell they are teaching at the Chinese naval academy in terms of following the chain of command.

It is preparation for strike; in a war scenario, missile commands work this way at higher levels of threat perceived.

The problem is that unlike their US counterparts, Chinese military officers are not actively schooled in diplomacy, probably other than their Special Forces units. The upper levels of command probably told them that "it might become a shooting war", which they perceive as "if it becomes a shooting war, we have to shoot first".

That is taking initiative way off sensibility.

[ArchmageXin]

Originally Posted by SaintessHeart

It is preparation for strike; in a war scenario, missile commands work this way at higher levels of threat perceived.

The problem is that unlike their US counterparts, Chinese military officers are not actively schooled in diplomacy, probably other than their Special Forces units. The upper levels of command probably told them that "it might become a shooting war", which they perceive as "if it becomes a shooting war, we have to shoot first".

That is taking initiative way off sensibility.

Gee, the next thing we know a single patrol boat went missing, and then China will blame Japan was responsible, invade Japan and butcher their way down the Island, killing 1/2 population of Tokyo in revenge and hundreds of thousands of Japanese women were kidnapped as comfort troops for the good of "all of Asia".

Na, it could never happen.

Wait, this sounds familiar for some reason

[willx]

Originally Posted by ArchmageXin

Gee, the next thing we know a single patrol boat went missing, and then China will blame Japan was responsible, invade Japan and butcher their way down the Island, killing 1/2 population of Tokyo in revenge and hundreds of thousands of Japanese women were kidnapped as comfort troops for the good of "all of Asia".

Na, it could never happen.

Wait, this sounds familiar for some reason

Okay, I understand the facts and events you're alluding to but I don't get how it applies other than the fact that you're insinuating that could happen .. which I don't think you are?

Y'know, this is slightly off-tangent, but it reminds me of two things, to state my viewpoint:
1) One of my uncles was a WW2 pilot and apparently was someone also involved in Vietnam. He hated Japanese, Germans and Communists in that order. He never got over the fact they were his enemies.
2) One of my good friends who is Japanese is a "Rape of Nanking" skeptic. I don't associate myself with China other than being ethnically Chinese, it's akin to denying the holocaust ever happened. He also doesn't believe in global warming.

I can't understand either of these people's positions. That said, I'm dispassionate about the history of these conflicts, other than to understand the facts underlying these tensions and why or why not it will affect future diplomacy or relations. I simply don't care. Perhaps it's a mathematical or academic or cold perspective on war, conflict, death and inhumane acts -- they happen, have happened and will happen when people come into conflict. Hopefully we (and more importantly decision and policy makers) are all more civilized enough to understand the repercussions of armed conflict these days. Maybe. Maybe not.

[ArchmageXin]

Originally Posted by willx

Okay, I understand the facts and events you're alluding to but I don't get how it applies other than the fact that you're insinuating that could happen .. which I don't think you are?

Y'know, this is slightly off-tangent, but it reminds me of two things, to state my viewpoint:
1) One of my uncles was a WW2 pilot and apparently was someone also involved in Vietnam. He hated Japanese, Germans and Communists in that order. He never got over the fact they were his enemies.
2) One of my good friends who is Japanese is a "Rape of Nanking" skeptic. I don't associate myself with China other than being ethnically Chinese, it's akin to denying the holocaust ever happened. He also doesn't believe in global warming.

I can't understand either of these people's positions. That said, I'm dispassionate about the history of these conflicts, other than to understand the facts underlying these tensions and why or why not it will affect future diplomacy or relations. I simply don't care. Perhaps it's a mathematical or academic or cold perspective on war, conflict, death and inhumane acts -- they happen, have happened and will happen when people come into conflict. Hopefully we (and more importantly decision and policy makers) are all more civilized enough to understand the repercussions of armed conflict these days. Maybe. Maybe not.

My trip down to southern U.S there are a lot of people still believe Sherman was improper for pillaging all those cities down south on his "March to the sea" and "Northern Invasion" etc.

If a bunch of "enlightened" Americans can still hold grudge for something 2-3 generations ago, why is it surprising the Chinese would still hold grudge for things that still have live survivors around?

I am just alluding to the facts most people claim it is the big, bad, China that is pushing the good little Japan around, and people seem to forgot why China is so peevish about letting Japan get away with ANYTHING.

[Sumeragi]

Originally Posted by ArchmageXin

I am just alluding to the facts most people claim it is the big, bad, China that is pushing the good little Japan around, and people seem to forgot why China is so peevish about letting Japan get away with ANYTHING.

Which explains why many Chinese don't get the Korean hostility towards Chinese.

[Cosmic Eagle]

Originally Posted by SaintessHeart

It is preparation for strike; in a war scenario, missile commands work this way at higher levels of threat perceived.

The problem is that unlike their US counterparts, Chinese military officers are not actively schooled in diplomacy, probably other than their Special Forces units. The upper levels of command probably told them that "it might become a shooting war", which they perceive as "if it becomes a shooting war, we have to shoot first".

That is taking initiative way off sensibility.

More likely some overidiotic zampol losing his head

[willx]

Originally Posted by ArchmageXin

My trip down to southern U.S there are a lot of people still believe Sherman was improper for pillaging all those cities down south on his "March to the sea" and "Northern Invasion" etc.

If a bunch of "enlightened" Americans can still hold grudge for something 2-3 generations ago, why is it surprising the Chinese would still hold grudge for things that still have live survivors around?

I am just alluding to the facts most people claim it is the big, bad, China that is pushing the good little Japan around, and people seem to forgot why China is so peevish about letting Japan get away with ANYTHING.

Right, I'm actually quite curious about that as well, for example, I'm curious how Russians still feel about Germans and vice-versa (the accounts about the initial East German march and occupation were absolutely horrific). And how the French feel about the Germans. Heck, the Native Americans obviously still hate the Canadian and American governments.

The question for individuals is when and where does it begin and where and when does it end? Is Germany now the same as Nazi Germany? Different government, different people. Is Japan now the same as the Empire of Japan? Is Current China the same as Communist China the same as KMT China the same as Imperial China? Hopefully the people in charge of each respective country are not mouth-breathing neanderthals.

EDIT: Reviewing my previous post, I make war sound a lot like how Stalin might view it .. ha, I'm never getting elected to any democratic position of authority..

[ArchmageXin]

Originally Posted by willx

Right, I'm actually quite curious about that as well, for example, I'm curious how Russians still feel about Germans and vice-versa (the accounts about the initial East German march and occupation were absolutely horrific). And how the French feel about the Germans. Heck, the Native Americans obviously still hate the Canadian and American governments.

The question for individuals is when and where does it begin and where and when does it end? Is Germany now the same as Nazi Germany? Different government, different people. Is Japan now the same as the Empire of Japan? Is Current China the same as Communist China the same as KMT China the same as Imperial China? Hopefully the people in charge of each respective country are not mouth-breathing neanderthals.

LOL Ninja Edit?

[ArchmageXin]

Originally Posted by Sumeragi

Which explains why many Chinese don't get the Korean hostility towards Chinese.

I know right? Xi Jing Ping should be obligated to dress up as emperor Palpentine and carry a light saber while force choking infidels and unbelievers while addressing the public.

[willx]

Originally Posted by ArchmageXin

I know right? Xi Jing Ping should be obligated to dress up as emperor Palpentine and carry a light saber while force choking infidels and unbelievers while addressing the public.

No, but to be the devil's advocate here, you can't make a statement that it is valid for China to being suspicious about Japanese intentions without the caveat (or being open to the caveat) that there are valid reasons for other Asian countries to be suspicious about Chinese intentions. It goes both ways.

And yes, ninja edit because I type fast .. but I think faster than I type.. (I also edit'd to comment about how cold and unfeeling I come off as.. )

[ArchmageXin]

Originally Posted by willx

No, but to be the devil's advocate here, you can't make a statement that it is valid for China to being suspicious about Japanese intentions without the caveat (or being open to the caveat) that there are valid reasons for other Asian countries to be suspicious about Chinese intentions. It goes both ways.

And yes, ninja edit because I type fast .. but I think faster than I type.. (I also edit'd to comment about how cold and unfeeling I come off as.. )

But to play Devil's Devil I suppose, America probably has a even more dubious war-aggression record, but they are lauded as the "leader of the free world." And can do no wrong, even when a errand missile or two kill a innocent family sitting in their backyard.

But China is busy sitting home and building an economy as well as national defense, but everyone is expecting an "Empire Strikes Back" attack any moment.

[willx]

Originally Posted by ArchmageXin

But to play Devil's Devil I suppose, America probably has a even more dubious war-aggression record, but they are lauded as the "leader of the free world." And can do no wrong, even when a errand missile or two kill a innocent family sitting in their backyard.

But China is busy sitting home and building an economy as well as national defense, but everyone is expecting an "Empire Strikes Back" attack any moment.

Not an inaccurate statement, people should be more wary about the U.S., granted that probably the reason they've gotten the "benefit of the doubt" is due to the relative restraint showed by the country post-WW2 when it had a window of nuclear monopoly and its assistance in rebuilding Japan shortly after the war. That glowing halo has definitely been diminishing over the years with more information becoming freely available of its activities during the cold war and since, including Iraq x 2, etc.

That said, we weren't talking about the U.S., we were talking about China .. you're doing a change in tack here so you're not really playing Devil's Devil's Advocate

[Sumeragi]

Originally Posted by ArchmageXin

But China is busy sitting home and building an economy as well as national defense, but everyone is expecting an "Empire Strikes Back" attack any moment.

Yes, because clearly PRC is being entirely civil when accusing countries of being barbaric after shooting illegal fishers trying to kill police. If someone was "busy sitting home and building an economy as well as national defense" they wouldn't be acting like they're still the suzerain.

[AnimeFan188]

Originally Posted by ArchmageXin

But China is busy sitting home and building an economy as well as national defense, but everyone is expecting an "Empire Strikes Back" attack any moment.

The people of Tibet may not agree that China is just "busy sitting home".

The Japanese might disagree as well:

http://www.strategypage.com/htmw/htl.../20130318.aspx

[SaintessHeart]

Originally Posted by Cosmic Eagle

More likely some overidiotic zampol losing his head

What China could use right now is a shortage of these people. But these are the big-mouthed cheerleaders that gave CCP the rallying power they needed - under one flag of nationalism in the name of patriotism.

Originally Posted by ArchmageXin

But China is busy sitting home and building an economy as well as national defense, but everyone is expecting an "Empire Strikes Back" attack any moment.

Here is a drunk excerpt from a PLA officer (don't ask me how I got it) :

China's plan of the "Chinese Hegemony" is threefold - internal control > economic control > military control.

Firstly, it has to "gain the trust" of their citizens, and to actively steer them towards their policies, whether the rest of the world agree with them or not, the presence of any Chinese anywhere will be easy to influence via "roots".

Secondly, economic control. With the excess amount of cash and business opportunities given by countries to produce their goods cheaply, China can now use such connections and unpaid favours to their advantage. Exploitation of minerals in resource rich countries in exchange for the cash earned from these original sources means China lost little, or nothing at all.

Thirdly, military control. As China gains the technology licensed by the countries who have set up their factories there, it is reverse-engineered and repurposed for military use. Combined with expatriates who have worked overseas and returned with their store of knowledge and know-how, China can now build much more advanced military equipment. Combined with their large military size, they can spread their influence not only economically, but militarily too.

China's last economic conquest is SEA. The next 10 years will determine if we are to be actively brainwashed and be speaking Chinese, or will we continue speaking English and be milking concessions against the big powers - having turn their games of influence against them. If it is the former, we just embarked on a journey to the end of the human race - give us half-a-century and we lose all forms of sentient intelligence and critical thinking.

[ArchmageXin]

Originally Posted by Sumeragi

Yes, because clearly PRC is being entirely civil when accusing countries of being barbaric after shooting illegal fishers trying to kill police. If someone was "busy sitting home and building an economy as well as national defense" they wouldn't be acting like they're still the suzerain.

I am sure a toothless diplomatic protest beat a full scale invasion and destruction like what I just allude earlier. Learn to live with it. Especially if it is business as usual the day after and one of those fishermen died too.

The people of China may not agree that China is just "busy sitting home".

Fixed.

The Japanese might disagree as well:

I don't see bombs landing on Tokyo here. Stop overreacting.

Here is a drunk excerpt from a PLA officer (don't ask me how I got it) :

Italics for questionable source. Also the United States once had plans to conquer Canada once upon a time, and Donald Rumfield in latter half of Bush II 1st administration had an hard on for the idea to Invade China (reports once upon the time commented his eyes just lit up every time people want to talk about China, but glaze over everytime people want to talk about Iraq). It is clear both is not like to happen anytime soon.

[willx]

Originally Posted by ArchmageXin

Fixed.

OH DEAR! Now, historical bloodthirsty Tibetan warlords aside, I'm not necessarily a believer in Woodrow Wilson's ideas of self-determination .. but to be consistent with my views on the Falklands, I'm curious why you don't believe a population should be allowed to choose its own independent destiny?