[Manga] Chapter 339 Discussion

[Hunter]

Originally Posted by The Small One

The point is: The only thing that is cut short is the trial and error-time.
All the clones are basically trying the same thing at the same time, however they make it a bit different and statistically there are a few who make it better. Without clones, Naruto would have to try it one after another; with the clones, he can make it parallel.
Then he has to dispell the jutsu, gain the knowledge, and start from anew with the new knowlegde. But the fact remains: All clones start from the same spot, they just work into different directions, out of which only one is the right one.

Now in the best case, he would need the same time without any clones, if he was lucky and always got it right on the first try. It's like walking thorugh a huge maze: if you can split yourself up on each junction, you will most likely reach the goal much faster, but if you are lucky and find the right way on the first try, it will take you the same time.

You are forgetting a few points.
First and foremost, the most important thing in training : repetition.
The KB training doesn't only allow to try hundreds of time in parallel, it gives all the experience back to its user. Ie Naruto has effectivelly the memory and experience to have tried and executed Wind manipulation and his new jutsu thousands and thousands of times for years.
Secondly what you say is true for people like Itachi. The KB training wouldn't have made him learn Fire manipulation faster simply because he got it right the very first try. But even for Itachi I doubt it would be true for any kind of jutsu no matter the difficulty, only an absolute genius wouldn't gain from this training.
Someone like Sasuke who needed a few days to learn Lightning manipulation would get it right at most in a few minutes instead.
But in the case of Naruto who's not a genius and "learn with his body" the advantage is tremendous. Remember also that you doesn't need to release all the clones : releasing the one clone who got it right give the information and experience to all the clones and Naruto at the same time.
The training gives to Naruto the learning rate of an incredible genius, something that he wouldn't have otherwise.

Hence why Naruto would never learn as fast naturally as with KB training.

[Sazelyt]

Originally Posted by ShikaShika

Personally I think it would be pretty lame if he could control it, and I hope Naruto instead has some means of immobilizing Kakuzu, perhaps with clones. At least I think we can all assume that Naruto is going to do more than simply throwing the rasenshuriken next chapter.

There are some unverified spoilers that answer your concerns.

Spoiler:

According to some spoilers, Kakuzu is immobilized with the help of Yamato's mokuton jutsu, instead of Naruto's clones. But, considering the at least three-clones statement of Naruto, I prefer Naruto achieves that with no outside help.

Also, according to the same or some other spoilers (don't know which one, cause there are quite a lot spoilers), Naruto's rasengan based shuriken jutsu can be used to defend against strong fire jutsus, by, seems to be, rotating it.

Originally Posted by Hunter

But even for Itachi I doubt it would be true for any kind of jutsu no matter the difficulty, only an absolute genius wouldn't gain from this training.

What is an absolute genius? Is there a definition for that?

What Naruto tried to achieve couldn't be achieved by Yondaime, who is considered to belong to the set of the highest level geniuses. His genius didn't seem to help him a lot on that matter. At the beginning of that training method, the main advantage was mostly considered for the case of learning jutsus with the highest difficulty, for instance a jutsu that might have taken a few years to complete even for the highest level geniuses.

So, if Itachi would require a few days to learn a jutsu, even for Naruto, a so-called non-genius, using Kage Bunshin would not be a must to learn that in a reasonable time. Considering that he finished Rasengan in a very short amount time, and Kage Bunshin in one night, if he has the ability to achieve it, he might achieve it in a similar time frame compared to the genius ones (like, days to days, months to months, years to years).

[Hunter]

Originally Posted by Sazelyt

What is an absolute genius? Is there a definition for that?

I meant it as a guy ables to do anything and everything perfectly at the first try, aka someone who doesn't have any "training-time".

[Rahan]

Originally Posted by Sazelyt

What is an absolute genius? Is there a definition for that?

What Naruto tried to achieve couldn't be achieved by Yondaime, who is considered to belong to the set of the highest level geniuses.

Was it even stated he was a genius. He has always been portrayed as someone really strong, but

• Jiraiya said Naruto and Yondaime were similar
• Jiraiya told Oro it was no fun teaching geniuses and that he didn't geniuses (well, IIRC, he said Uchiha, but that what he meant) to make badass ninjas
• It has been stated Rasengan was an ideal jutsu for Naruto as it didn't require any seals. (for some reason, Naruto is supposed to suck at forming seals even if he didn't have any trouble with the ones for Kage Bunshin and Kuchiyose, but that's not the point). Guess who felt the need to spend years developping it ? (and Hiraishin no Jutsu doesn't require any seals during the battle as well, I think)

I don't buy the Naruto is Yondaime theory, but I really think Yondaime is closer from Naruto than the likes of Itachi or Kakashi. I think he is no genius, but an ordinary ninja who built his way to the top.

[Sazelyt]

Originally Posted by Rahan

Was it even stated he was a genius.

What he has achieved at that young age with no known bloodline or demon supporting him tells that he is definitely not an ordinary ninja. And, considering how he is thought of by other considerably strong people, he deserves to be put next to that geniuses.

[chuckcsf]

Originally Posted by Rahan

Was it even stated he was a genius. He has always been portrayed as someone really strong, but

• Jiraiya said Naruto and Yondaime were similar
• Jiraiya told Oro it was no fun teaching geniuses and that he didn't geniuses (well, IIRC, he said Uchiha, but that what he meant) to make badass ninjas
• It has been stated Rasengan was an ideal jutsu for Naruto as it didn't require any seals. (for some reason, Naruto is supposed to suck at forming seals even if he didn't have any trouble with the ones for Kage Bunshin and Kuchiyose, but that's not the point). Guess who felt the need to spend years developping it ? (and Hiraishin no Jutsu doesn't require any seals during the battle as well, I think)

I don't buy the Naruto is Yondaime theory, but I really think Yondaime is closer from Naruto than the likes of Itachi or Kakashi. I think he is no genius, but an ordinary ninja who built his way to the top.

So what then is your definition of genius? I think Naruto is a genius... He seem that have accomplished a lot more than any of his peers in regards to power.... except for maybe Sauske but it is too early to say since we haven't really seen Sauske's real powers and we haven't completely seen the changes in Naruto.

[Kotengu]

Originally Posted by Rahan

I don't buy the Naruto is Yondaime theory, but I really think Yondaime is closer from Naruto than the likes of Itachi or Kakashi. I think he is no genius, but an ordinary ninja who built his way to the top.

I personally don't like the fact that people keep harping on yondaime. He's in the past. Yea it's cool to use him as a lose comparison to what naruto has the capability for, but they are different. We should just go with facts. Yondaime was Hokage, he was skilled at Seal jutsus, Taijutsu, Ninjutsu, AND created at least two of his OWN s class jutsus. Similarities to naruto (right now) are looks, and a bit of inherent attitude. That's about it. Naruto isn't outstanding in taijutsu, and he only knows a hand full of ninjutsu.

Naruto's strengths are Immense chakra capacity-which directly effects his stamina, and his akward imagination-which he uses to surprise his oponents.

Originally Posted by chuckcsf

So what then is your definition of genius? I think Naruto is a genius...

In this series genius is a term that is very losely based.
1) Lee is a genius of hard work:meaning he can do it if it requres ludicrous effort or makes his life harder?
2) Sasuke and Neji are geniuses because of thier blood limit: I would imagine that you would have to suck to not be able to do regular abilities associatied with your blood limit. Sasuke and Neji are good cuz they learn those abilites faster than the Majority of their clan (itachi would be ultimate sharingan genius)
3) Sakura and Shikamaru are regular geniuses: They are just friggin smart. High IQ. Smart people can outsmart you. In the end, it's more effective than just foresight, or understanding alone.

I didn't SPECIFICALLY metion Kakashi, Shino, Kabuto, Orochimaru, or any Akasuki, but they would still be Better than average. That would tecnically make them geniuses. This whole series is about what you can accomplish reguradless of Status (A.K.A) being a genius. Every conflict so far has been about that or some lonleyness crap. It doesn't really matter who's labled a genius, it's only another plot device.

In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if Akatsuki's real pourpose was to 'exalt geniuses' above everyone else so that they get stronger/more power, and the weak are destroyed or something

[Luminion Lancer]

-There is something that I do not understand. Naruto is utilizing the Kyuubi's chakra as of now correct? This is clearly evidenced in his eyes since they are slit. However, he is still capable of producing the Fuuton nature, something his own chakra has been recently been revealed to posses. However, the Kyuubi's chakra is different since it belongs to the kitsune himself rather than Naruto. Could this mean that Naruto has learned how to convert any chakra into the Fuuton Nature or are his own chakra and the chakra of the Kyuubi so intertwined that they share the same exact elemental properties?

[DeDe]

A lot of fake spoilers running around now. But this is the first one that could be legit.

Spoiler:

From boyakist4649:

unconfirmed, but some on 2ch say it's the real thing.
簡易バレ

ナルト「風遁・螺旋手裏剣・・これで決めるってばよ」
Naruto: "Fuuton rasenshuriken - I'll settle it with this"

角都の前・右・左の三方向から同時に影分身で攻めるが
He attacks Kakusu's front/right/left with kage-bunshins
ことごとく迎撃され、影分身はふっとぶ
They get intercepted one after another, and the kage-bunshins get tossed away

そこへ背後から本体のナルトが新術で突っ込んでくる
Then from behind, the real naruto comes attacking with his new technique
ナルト「やらァー！」
Naruto: "Yaraa~!"
角都　「しまっ・・」
Kakuzu: "Damn it..."

「　ド　ッ　」
ナルトの一撃は角都にクリーンヒット！
Naurto's attack makes a clean hit on Kakuzu

しかし、当たる寸前に螺旋丸はしぼんで消えていた
but, before it hit, the rasengan had shrunken and had disappeared

チョージ「え？」
Chouji: "Wha?"
イノ　　「何？勝ったの？」
Ino: : "What? did he win?"
ヤマト　「・・・・・・」
　　　「失敗だ」（ヤマト顔がゆがんでいる）
Yamato:"...."
"He messed up" (Yamato's face looks wry)

カカシ「さすが意外性の忍者だ。やってくれる」
Kakashi: "Yup, the unpredictable ninja did it again"
カカシはヤマトと援護に入る。
Kakashi and Yamato come to reinforce

角都の触手でナルトはつかまるが、カカシが雷切の
Naruto gets caught up in Kakuzu's tentacles, but
ようなバチバチという手刀で断ち切り、ヤマトの木遁の
Kakashi's Raikiri-like chop cuts him loose,
連鎖攻撃で角都を遠くへ追い払う
and Yamato's mokuton attack immediately follows and chases Kakuzu far away.

ナルト「くっそォ」
Naruto: "Crap!"
イノ　「かっこつけるだけつけといて・・ナルトらしいったら
　　　ナルトらしいけど」
Ino:"He looked really good until then... but I guess this is Naruto acting like Naruto himself.
チョージ「螺旋手裏剣っていうからピューって飛ばすのかと
　　　思ったら・・走ってぶつけないとダメなの？」
Chouji: "I thought he said RasenShuriken, so I thought he would fly it at him, but you have to run and hit him with it?"
ナルト　「何だよ！当たればスゲーんだぞ！」
Naruto:" Hey! It's amazing if it hits!"

新術はゼロ距離で相手にぶつけないとだめ。そのため陽動が基本
The new technique has to be executed at point blank, therefore a diversion is absolutely necessary.
おまけに発動持続時間はもって数秒である
On top of that, it takes a few seconds to get the technique started.

角都（あの術近づかなければ大丈夫だな。接近戦を避け術を持つ
　　　オリジナルに注意を払っていればさほど怖くはない）
Kakuzu (as long as I don't get close to that technique I should be fine. And as long as I avoid close range battle and keep an eye on the original that creates that technique, it's not too scary.)

ナルト「もう一度オレにやらせてくれってばよ」
Naruto: "Let me try it again one more time."
カカシ「・・・」
Kakashi:"..."
ナルト「新術で決めてやる」
Naruto: "I'll do this with the new technique."

角都の実力から今度は全員で角都を攻めるようイノ達が反対する
Since Kakuzu's pretty powerful, Ino objects, saying that everyone should attack Kakuzu
カカシ「確かにな・・この状況・・今は五体一だ」
　　　「危ない橋を渡る必要もない」
Kakashi:"True... We're currently going five against one. There's no need to cross dangerous bridges."

角都　（さて・・どう来る？）
Kakuzu: "now... what are they going to do?)
ナルト「カカシ先生」「修行中にオレに言ったこと覚えてるか？」
Naruto: "Kakashi-sensei, do you remember what you said to me during our training?"
カカシ「？」
Kakashi:"?"
ナルト「四代目火影を超える忍はお前しかいないと信じてるって」
　　　「確かにチームワークは大切だ。それは分かってる」
　　　「でも今オレは危ない橋を一人で渡りたいんだってばよ」
Naruto:"You told me that you believe that I'm the only shinobi that can surpass the 4th Hokage. Teamwork is very important, I know. But right now, I want to try to cross that dangerous bridge on my own"
　　　
　　　「向こうへたどりつけなきゃオレはいつまでたっても
　　　　ガキのままだ」
　　　（カカシ考えている）
Naruto:"If I don't get to the other side, I'll always be the same kid"
(Kakashi thinking)
　　　「その橋を外すようなことはしないでくれ」
"PLease don't do anything to push that bridge aside."
　　　（回想でサスケのアップ）
(Flashback and Sasuke's face appears)

カカシ「・・・・・・」
　　　「フッ・・ヤマトお前はどうだ？」
Kakashi:"..."
"Hm... Yamato, what about it?"
ヤマト「ええ・・だって見てないですよね」
　　　「以前のナルトとは別人だってところ」
Yamato:"Yeah... you haven't seen it yet right -
that Naruto is a completely different individual than before"
カカシ「・・決まりだな」
Kakashi:"then it's decided"

[Hunter]

Originally Posted by Fukitsu Naruto

-There is something that I do not understand. Naruto is utilizing the Kyuubi's chakra as of now correct? This is clearly evidenced in his eyes since they are slit. However, he is still capable of producing the Fuuton nature, something his own chakra has been recently been revealed to posses. However, the Kyuubi's chakra is different since it belongs to the kitsune himself rather than Naruto. Could this mean that Naruto has learned how to convert any chakra into the Fuuton Nature or are his own chakra and the chakra of the Kyuubi so intertwined that they share the same exact elemental properties?

Naruto has been using Kyubi's chakra during all his training you know.

[Uchiha_Gaara]

Originally Posted by Hunter

Naruto has been using Kyubi's chakra during all his training you know.

yep. That's why Yamato was needed during the training! And that is way,maybe, the 4th wasn't able to do the Fuuton Rasengan. Cause he didn't have the chakra capabilities!

[chuckcsf]

Originally Posted by DeDe

A lot of fake spoilers running around now. But this is the first one that could be legit.

Spoiler:

From boyakist4649:

unconfirmed, but some on 2ch say it's the real thing.
簡易バレ

ナルト「風遁・螺旋手裏剣・・これで決めるってばよ」
Naruto: "Fuuton rasenshuriken - I'll settle it with this"

角都の前・右・左の三方向から同時に影分身で攻めるが
He attacks Kakusu's front/right/left with kage-bunshins
ことごとく迎撃され、影分身はふっとぶ
They get intercepted one after another, and the kage-bunshins get tossed away

そこへ背後から本体のナルトが新術で突っ込んでくる
Then from behind, the real naruto comes attacking with his new technique
ナルト「やらァー！」
Naruto: "Yaraa~!"
角都　「しまっ・・」
Kakuzu: "Damn it..."

「　ド　ッ　」
ナルトの一撃は角都にクリーンヒット！
Naurto's attack makes a clean hit on Kakuzu

しかし、当たる寸前に螺旋丸はしぼんで消えていた
but, before it hit, the rasengan had shrunken and had disappeared

チョージ「え？」
Chouji: "Wha?"
イノ　　「何？勝ったの？」
Ino: : "What? did he win?"
ヤマト　「・・・・・・」
　　　「失敗だ」（ヤマト顔がゆがんでいる）
Yamato:"...."
"He messed up" (Yamato's face looks wry)

カカシ「さすが意外性の忍者だ。やってくれる」
Kakashi: "Yup, the unpredictable ninja did it again"
カカシはヤマトと援護に入る。
Kakashi and Yamato come to reinforce

角都の触手でナルトはつかまるが、カカシが雷切の
Naruto gets caught up in Kakuzu's tentacles, but
ようなバチバチという手刀で断ち切り、ヤマトの木遁の
Kakashi's Raikiri-like chop cuts him loose,
連鎖攻撃で角都を遠くへ追い払う
and Yamato's mokuton attack immediately follows and chases Kakuzu far away.

ナルト「くっそォ」
Naruto: "Crap!"
イノ　「かっこつけるだけつけといて・・ナルトらしいったら
　　　ナルトらしいけど」
Ino:"He looked really good until then... but I guess this is Naruto acting like Naruto himself.
チョージ「螺旋手裏剣っていうからピューって飛ばすのかと
　　　思ったら・・走ってぶつけないとダメなの？」
Chouji: "I thought he said RasenShuriken, so I thought he would fly it at him, but you have to run and hit him with it?"
ナルト　「何だよ！当たればスゲーんだぞ！」
Naruto:" Hey! It's amazing if it hits!"

新術はゼロ距離で相手にぶつけないとだめ。そのため陽動が基本
The new technique has to be executed at point blank, therefore a diversion is absolutely necessary.
おまけに発動持続時間はもって数秒である
On top of that, it takes a few seconds to get the technique started.

角都（あの術近づかなければ大丈夫だな。接近戦を避け術を持つ
　　　オリジナルに注意を払っていればさほど怖くはない）
Kakuzu (as long as I don't get close to that technique I should be fine. And as long as I avoid close range battle and keep an eye on the original that creates that technique, it's not too scary.)

ナルト「もう一度オレにやらせてくれってばよ」
Naruto: "Let me try it again one more time."
カカシ「・・・」
Kakashi:"..."
ナルト「新術で決めてやる」
Naruto: "I'll do this with the new technique."

角都の実力から今度は全員で角都を攻めるようイノ達が反対する
Since Kakuzu's pretty powerful, Ino objects, saying that everyone should attack Kakuzu
カカシ「確かにな・・この状況・・今は五体一だ」
　　　「危ない橋を渡る必要もない」
Kakashi:"True... We're currently going five against one. There's no need to cross dangerous bridges."

角都　（さて・・どう来る？）
Kakuzu: "now... what are they going to do?)
ナルト「カカシ先生」「修行中にオレに言ったこと覚えてるか？」
Naruto: "Kakashi-sensei, do you remember what you said to me during our training?"
カカシ「？」
Kakashi:"?"
ナルト「四代目火影を超える忍はお前しかいないと信じてるって」
　　　「確かにチームワークは大切だ。それは分かってる」
　　　「でも今オレは危ない橋を一人で渡りたいんだってばよ」
Naruto:"You told me that you believe that I'm the only shinobi that can surpass the 4th Hokage. Teamwork is very important, I know. But right now, I want to try to cross that dangerous bridge on my own"
　　　
　　　「向こうへたどりつけなきゃオレはいつまでたっても
　　　　ガキのままだ」
　　　（カカシ考えている）
Naruto:"If I don't get to the other side, I'll always be the same kid"
(Kakashi thinking)
　　　「その橋を外すようなことはしないでくれ」
"PLease don't do anything to push that bridge aside."
　　　（回想でサスケのアップ）
(Flashback and Sasuke's face appears)

カカシ「・・・・・・」
　　　「フッ・・ヤマトお前はどうだ？」
Kakashi:"..."
"Hm... Yamato, what about it?"
ヤマト「ええ・・だって見てないですよね」
　　　「以前のナルトとは別人だってところ」
Yamato:"Yeah... you haven't seen it yet right -
that Naruto is a completely different individual than before"
カカシ「・・決まりだな」
Kakashi:"then it's decided"

Spoiler for 340:

If this is legit, why would they ruin a good moment and make us wait another week for the good stuff???

Originally Posted by Uchiha_Gaara

yep. That's why Yamato was needed during the training! And that is way,maybe, the 4th wasn't able to do the Fuuton Rasengan. Cause he didn't have the chakra capabilities!

Nah, I think it is always hard to do it when your time is limited. Plus, him being a Hokage, I'm sure he would have a lot of chakra to spare, maybe.

[Sazelyt]

Originally Posted by Fukitsu Naruto

Naruto is utilizing the Kyuubi's chakra as of now correct? ... However, he is still capable of producing the Fuuton nature, something his own chakra has been recently been revealed to posses.

It is most probably converted into his own chakra, in a continual manner, instead of using the kyuubi chakra directly as if he is in kyuubified mode. But, still it is an interesting question.

[Mr. Johnny 5]

Hold it! Wasnt it...

Naruto used the Kyuubi chakra to create bodies (Kage Bunshin) and then with his own chakra (wind natured) using his Wind Rasengan?

About Yondaime & Jiraiya:

- I do think that the 4th was a genius...may things lead to it.
- The fact that Jiraiya was a succesfull sensei (watching his student become a Hokage) could've ment that Jiraiya wanted to try it with a dropout this time.

"It's not fun to teach someone who is already perfect" He wouldnt know if he didnt had experience with a genius student now would he?

The techniques of the 4th (in my opinion) prove that he wasnt your ordinary shinobi.

[Supaiku_of_Sand]

I agree the 4th had to be damned smart to be able to create the rasengan and all his other techniques. he was indeed brilliant, a genius? Perhaps...i gues we'll never know

[Xellos-_^]

Originally Posted by Supaiku_of_Sand

I agree the 4th had to be damned smart to be able to create the rasengan and all his other techniques. he was indeed brilliant, a genius? Perhaps...i gues we'll never know

Form Kekkashi's flashback, the 4th was no dummy. He was everything that Naruto isn't. I don't know if he was a genius but he was no dummy either.

[Supaiku_of_Sand]

i think we just have to watch an see thats all

[Hunter]

Originally Posted by Sazelyt

It is most probably converted into his own chakra, in a continual manner, instead of using the kyuubi chakra directly as if he is in kyuubified mode. But, still it is an interesting question.

Kind of like Kakuzu's chakra get the affinity of the heart it passes by if you ask me.
The Kyubi's chakra passes by Naruto's heart and thus would takes its affinity.

[Supaiku_of_Sand]

i think naruto WILL be getting another affinity. im not sure what but i know he will.

[Xellos-_^]

Originally Posted by Supaiku_of_Sand

i think naruto WILL be getting another affinity. im not sure what but i know he will.

It wouldn't Fire and Lighting since those are Sasuke's Elements.

He already have Wind so that leaves Water and Earth.

Since Gaara has sand which is a type of Earth. I will go with Water.

Which make sense since Wind > Lighting and Water > Fire.

Naurto will be able to make a Mega Hurrican to drown a village.

Naruto - Hurrican Chronicles