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Old 2022-09-29, 01:48   Link #921
belatkuro
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Join Date: Mar 2012
Or get Nahida C1.

It just means that Nahida is a support for Nilou. Extending the duration of the Burst via Hydro teammates means that Nahida's A1 is always in effect. You can build Nahida full EM and grant it to the active character who will be the driver for the Bloom reactions of Nilou.

And the beta hasn't even started yet. Need further testing for everything before concluding things.
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Old 2022-09-29, 02:17   Link #922
MeoTwister5
Komrades of Kitamura Kou
 
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Age: 37
Quote:
Originally Posted by belatkuro View Post
Or get Nahida C1.

It just means that Nahida is a support for Nilou. Extending the duration of the Burst via Hydro teammates means that Nahida's A1 is always in effect. You can build Nahida full EM and grant it to the active character who will be the driver for the Bloom reactions of Nilou.

And the beta hasn't even started yet. Need further testing for everything before concluding things.
My understanding of C1 means that it's a +1 on pyro/electro/hydro actually in your party, and not if at least 1 member of a specific element are present, unless I'm grossly mistaken.

Oh and Layla allegedly available with Nahida.

Last edited by MeoTwister5; 2022-09-29 at 02:28.
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Old 2022-09-29, 08:53   Link #923
GDB
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No, her C1 is just +1 to each (caps at 2 regardless). Even if you have 0 in the party, it gets +1 to become 1.
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Old 2022-09-29, 15:50   Link #924
TnAdct1
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Join Date: Dec 2005
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Given the bit of story featured in the latest event, it looks like
Spoiler for Of Ballads and Brews:
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Old 2022-09-30, 03:59   Link #925
Liddo-kun
is this so?
 
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
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had enough AF gathered from Battle Pass and character ascensions to make one 10-pull at Standard

my 10-pull at Standard felt like it's from a weapon banner. lol

Spoiler:
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Old 2022-10-04, 01:16   Link #926
belatkuro
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https://www.gamespot.com/articles/ge.../1100-6507942/

Ok, so this interview has become a buzz recently. Wanna hear some opinions in here.

I could clear floor 12 of Spiral Abyss but leaving 2 to 3 stars sometimes. It took me only until last May to fully 36 stars it. I personally don't want another endgame like the Abyss. It's pretty stressful for me and it's not even worth wasting several retries to get the perfect run for the remaining 50 primos and 60k mora. But I would like some new endgame and we'll see if the new TCG will fit that bill.

It seems like people are misconstruing this that Hoyoverse is not gonna make any endgame at all. It's pretty crazy at least on reddit.
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Old 2022-10-04, 02:24   Link #927
Marina2
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What they said in the interview is basically how the game has been doing for 2 years ,so It not actually surprising for me about the direction of the game.

Anyway, I think what they really meant was that they won't make another endgame similar to Spiral Abyss (Rooms with enemies to kill under time limit), which resulting in player has to do basically the same thing twice. That doesn't mean they won't make any combat related endgame content in the future.

Was the answer originally in Chinese but GameSpot translated it to english? Some answer from Hoyoverse seems to have a weird wording choice.
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Old 2022-10-04, 03:59   Link #928
FlameSparkZ
the "Z" is for "Zeta"
 
 
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The feeling I get is that they're purposely either avoiding proper answers or keeping them vague to not reveal anything that is still in development.

...or might be wishful thinking from my part
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Old 2022-10-04, 04:54   Link #929
Klashikari
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Join Date: Mar 2006
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Quote:
Originally Posted by belatkuro View Post
It seems like people are misconstruing this that Hoyoverse is not gonna make any endgame at all. It's pretty crazy at least on reddit.
I'm on the other side of the fence and I strongly believe people are worried for good reasons.
The context of the question was obviously meant to be "combat oriented end game" which is practically inexistent in the game right now. Frankly speaking, Spiral Abyss is not only pretty mundane to clear with 36 as long you know what you are doing, but it isn't even a good mode when it comes to have fun with different teams because of the way they designed most rooms in floor 11 and 12 and the fact it is always with a time limit.
The good news is that it is nowhere near the powercreep chase that is present in honkai (in a nutshell, Honkai pretty much forces you to chase after current meta team because enemy specs and resistance/vulnerabilities severely affect performance of non current meta teams). The bad news is that this mode is incredibly stale at some point and feel more like a chore than anything else. And it has been 2 years that sole "end game content" remained the way for bizarre reasons. That's why asking for a new combat oriented content feels appropriate yet such answer from MHY is quite disheartening to say the least.

Implementing a permanent combat oriented mode wouldn't hurt as long they don't force people doing it. And there are different kind of rewards that can be implemented such as ascension materials (or token used to trade for them), namecards (for bragging rights), special artifact box, artifact stats reroll items etc. Additionally, it doesn't have to be similar and/or as difficult as Abyss. They already implemented stuff like Labyrinth Warrior that doesn't heavily rely on a DPS check and stuff like that. If anything, a procedural type of content that force you to use certain type/element would give incentive to play more characters without being overly oppressive. The idea for that kind of content is that it would give reasons to actually grind artifacts and build characters in general. Right now, the overworld is boringly easy to the point there is no reason to adapt your team unless you use a monoelement one and you are against an enemy that is immune to that element. There is no reason to even roll new characters except if you really like them and/or got bored with what you have. In other words, there is nearly no content that gives you reasons to enjoy playing characters because of the game base difficulty.

The bottom line is that the TCG mini game is hardly something people expected and wanted and feels like an afterthought that doesn't play with the game strengths (exploration and team based content). At some point, when you are done with the exploration, which is bound to happen regardless of your pace, then the game is pretty much stuck in a content draught because you can't really do much in the overworld.
I'm not really surprised Mihoyo didn't bother with hardcore content and whatnot, but I really think a part of the community has been really unreasonable in condemning players who wants more. If combat is not your cup of tea, you can simply skip that content, the same way how some people don't bother exploring new zone at 100%, those who don't read dialogues or those who don't give a damn about the teapot.
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Old 2022-10-04, 05:42   Link #930
Marcus H.
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I'm one of those "Abyss non-players" until rather recently, and even so I only push for at most 27 stars. Here are my thoughts on the interview:

- The idea of "another permanent combat endgame like Abyss" is welcome but to be honest, I don't want another activity to add to the stuff that I have to do. And besides, Hoyoverse has been introducing combat events that have the things combat enthusiasts want. Remember that some combat events even introduce a platinum award for people who have attained an extremely high score. That said, combat enthusiasts have to be aware that they are the minority in the game's massive playerbase. Most players have work and there's only so much time they would pour into the game.

- "Gameplay rules" as their primary focus is a very interesting look into developing the game's content. This is reminiscent of how Arknights designs difficult content so that players rely more on their entire roster than on a very broken individual character. By focusing on gameplay rules, they can avoid tweaking characters directly and instead design threats and challenges that would make certain characters shine.

- Traveler customization has been something even I wanted. I wanted it to be a reputation reward, symbolizing the Traveler's integration into the region. However, I'm also aware that Hoyoverse struggles with skins based on how large the gap is between skin releases, so I feel like there's something technical that the devs face when dealing with making new cosmetics for characters. Hopefully they sort that out so that we can change how the Traveler would look in the future.

- Regarding the polarized reactions to the interview, I say the minority has to take the L here. As I have mentioned before, combat enthusiasts still have content, just not permanent and not really designed for endgame. Here's the thing: that doesn't mean that they are ostracized by Hoyoverse. People should be aware that there are so many different kinds of people who play Genshin, and what one facet of the playerbase loves may be the nightmare of another. It sucks that instead of pushing for coexistence with a variety of players, some players see the interview as a sign that the devs have ignored a certain kind of player.
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Old 2022-10-04, 07:06   Link #931
Klashikari
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Join Date: Mar 2006
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Marcus H. View Post
- "Gameplay rules" as their primary focus is a very interesting look into developing the game's content. This is reminiscent of how Arknights designs difficult content so that players rely more on their entire roster than on a very broken individual character. By focusing on gameplay rules, they can avoid tweaking characters directly and instead design threats and challenges that would make certain characters shine.
I can't say they did a good job about that because it took them so long to introduce Dendro, and still didn't really address other elements in the lot except Electro in an indirect fashion. Characters like Keqing just happened to benefit the most from Dendro, but there is still a large gap between certain characters of the same rarity that just doesn't make any sense. Pyro is probably the most polarizing element in that regard as the powerscale and utilities between characters range from utter garbage to insane damage output. So really, that answer is more like a polite corporate way to confirm they won't buff lackluster characters for the time being.
Quote:
- The idea of "another permanent combat endgame like Abyss" is welcome but to be honest, I don't want another activity to add to the stuff that I have to do. And besides, Hoyoverse has been introducing combat events that have the things combat enthusiasts want. Remember that some combat events even introduce a platinum award for people who have attained an extremely high score. That said, combat enthusiasts have to be aware that they are the minority in the game's massive playerbase. Most players have work and there's only so much time they would pour into the game.
- Regarding the polarized reactions to the interview, I say the minority has to take the L here. As I have mentioned before, combat enthusiasts still have content, just not permanent and not really designed for endgame. Here's the thing: that doesn't mean that they are ostracized by Hoyoverse. People should be aware that there are so many different kinds of people who play Genshin, and what one facet of the playerbase loves may be the nightmare of another. It sucks that instead of pushing for coexistence with a variety of players, some players see the interview as a sign that the devs have ignored a certain kind of player.
Considering there wasn't any permanent combat content for 2 years and the wording of that interview, people would naturally feel neglected as result, especially when they keep adding stuff to the Teapot and their announcement for the TCG.
It wouldn't be so annoying if the game was clearly meant to be extremely casual, but the game mechanics, albeit simple, definitely have room for optimization gameplay otherwise team synergy and artifact farming wouldn't be a thing, and they did implement temporary content that fills the bill.

It isn't like they need a completely groundbreaking concept on the table. They just need to adapt some old concept they have implemented in the past and tie that with non primogems rewards to reduce the need of clearing that. Labyrinth warrior and mystery dungeon are most likely the most suitable past content to be implemented as a permanent combat content because it had a built-in rogue like aspect without being totally inane in term of character/weapon/artifact requirement. Would it require some work? Most likely but I really doubt it would take much more resources than their minigames that don't really work with the base gameplay system in mind (Defense tower etc) or systems that obviously take much more time to bugfix or conceptualize (teapot and TCG).
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Old 2022-10-04, 07:13   Link #932
FlameSparkZ
the "Z" is for "Zeta"
 
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Portugal
Another matter is the reason why players want more endgame content.

That alone, divides the playerbase into two sides:
  • Those who want harder content for the challenge
  • Those who want more content for the rewards

I'll be honest, I'm on the second group.
The current Spiral Abyss is still a challenge to me, and the most I've gotten is 32 stars. MHY's idea of "harder content" is just giving enemies more HP, higher Resistances, and a time limit...essentially turning most challenges into a DPS check.

Combat-oriented events however, have interesting and fun mechanics that give combat a slight twist...unfortunately, those don't last long.


And yes, Genshin clearly has more room for optimization, but they seem to be avoiding that for some reason...
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Old 2022-10-04, 07:59   Link #933
Marcus H.
Lord of the Lap Pillow
 
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Klashikari View Post
I can't say they did a good job about that because it took them so long to introduce Dendro, and still didn't really address other elements in the lot except Electro in an indirect fashion. Characters like Keqing just happened to benefit the most from Dendro, but there is still a large gap between certain characters of the same rarity that just doesn't make any sense. Pyro is probably the most polarizing element in that regard as the powerscale and utilities between characters range from utter garbage to insane damage output. So really, that answer is more like a polite corporate way to confirm they won't buff lackluster characters for the time being.
Are we talking about elements here or individual characters like Xinyan? Apparently both Thoma and Kuki Shinobu now get their niches due to Dendro reactions, and Qiqi got a boost in DPS with the help of the Ocean-Hued Clam set. From what I see, only Xinyan among the initial cast still needs something to make her relevant in combat gameplay.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Klashikari View Post
Considering there wasn't any permanent combat content for 2 years and the wording of that interview, people would naturally feel neglected as result, especially when they keep adding stuff to the Teapot and their announcement for the TCG.
I personally won't try to determine how Hoyoverse is handling the casual pandering of the game. Instead I feel like this particular problem is a clash of expectations which Hoyoverse knows via their surveys per version. As it stands, people feel neglected even though there's any content per version (including multiple non-permanent combat events) and that "feeling of neglect" is a problem that I personally don't know how to either look into or suggest solutions for.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Klashikari View Post
It wouldn't be so annoying if the game was clearly meant to be extremely casual, but the game mechanics, albeit simple, definitely have room for optimization gameplay otherwise team synergy and artifact farming wouldn't be a thing, and they did implement temporary content that fills the bill.

It isn't like they need a completely groundbreaking concept on the table. They just need to adapt some old concept they have implemented in the past and tie that with non primogems rewards to reduce the need of clearing that. Labyrinth warrior and mystery dungeon are most likely the most suitable past content to be implemented as a permanent combat content because it had a built-in rogue like aspect without being totally inane in term of character/weapon/artifact requirement. Would it require some work? Most likely but I really doubt it would take much more resources than their minigames that don't really work with the base gameplay system in mind (Defense tower etc) or systems that obviously take much more time to bugfix or conceptualize (teapot and TCG).
I've seen roguelike suggestions on every thread that talks about this interview and I do think it is a promising addition. Plus, I don't know if Hoyoverse is currently working on it since there are no leaks that suggest to it. What I do know is that those people who claim that Hoyoverse is "doing nothing" is a load of bull.
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Old 2022-10-04, 08:23   Link #934
Tactics
Haven't You Heard?
 
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FlameSparkZ View Post
Another matter is the reason why players want more endgame content.

That alone, divides the playerbase into two sides:
  • Those who want harder content for the challenge
  • Those who want more content for the rewards

And yes, Genshin clearly has more room for optimization, but they seem to be avoiding that for some reason...
Its the simplest reason IMO, money.

Looking at PS trophy for Genshin on my friend's, IIRC amount of endgame content clear is floating on 10%.
Asking on another discussion board, I heard amount of players made attempt on endgame content is more or less 20% of playerbase. If its true, then its understandable decision to completely ditch the endgame content that based on currently available characters on banner for something else that cater their existing playerbase better (I'm surprised they reasoned with "may cause excessive anxiety for our players").

Maybe the TCG will have similar feature to Tears of Themis (otome game made by Mihoyo) that added some characters scenario so there's reason for anyone to chase it.
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Old 2022-10-04, 08:59   Link #935
FlameSparkZ
the "Z" is for "Zeta"
 
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tactics View Post
Maybe the TCG will have similar feature to Tears of Themis (otome game made by Mihoyo) that added some characters scenario so there's reason for anyone to chase it.
The reveal of a TCG in Genshin reminded me of an MMORPG I used to play that released a TCG minigame during an update. It was something fun to do to relax from the grinding, and the rewards were related to the TCG itself.

Spoiler for Minigame TCG inside MMORPG:

(This is a 2014 game btw)

The minigame used in-game NPCs, monsters and summons for the cards, just like Genius Invocation is going to use.
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Old 2022-10-04, 22:23   Link #936
Marina2
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Maybe the devs has been testing the players' reception toward a harder content all along in time-limited event? (but player don't do them if the reward doesn't worth the effort)
https://www.reddit.com/r/Genshin_Imp...nt_for_a_long/

Not to mention they've to nerf some enemy in the past....
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Old 2022-10-05, 03:47   Link #937
Tactics
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Originally Posted by Marina2 View Post
Maybe the devs has been testing the players' reception toward a harder content all along in time-limited event? (but player don't do them if the reward doesn't worth the effort)
https://www.reddit.com/r/Genshin_Imp...nt_for_a_long/

Not to mention they've to nerf some enemy in the past....
Is it really a test though? From what I read there, its more of they're backpedaling because what they intended failed.
One of comments mentioned how at first you need to maxed specific characters to clear endgame content. However after many complaint from casuals, they patched stuffs so casuals can cleared it as well. If it really a test then there should be mentioned about beta stage or looking for active feedback; won't be something new in gacha games, like first month of V2 system on GBF or Honkai Impact open-world mode.

I take it probably they once thought a big portion of Genshin playerbase will be similar to Honkai, min-maxed specific team(s) for sake of endgame content. Technically that's the only way to ensure money from unpopular or minor characters. Turned out its the opposite instead, based on income report, and complaint likely started to piled up; now I kinda get why there's some people joking like, "since Genshin only see actual spike in interest when new characters announced, then there's nothing to lose from no endgame" after the news.
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Old 2022-10-05, 13:25   Link #938
Klashikari
阿賀野型3番艦、矢矧 Lv175
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Join Date: Mar 2006
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Marcus H. View Post
Are we talking about elements here or individual characters like Xinyan? Apparently both Thoma and Kuki Shinobu now get their niches due to Dendro reactions, and Qiqi got a boost in DPS with the help of the Ocean-Hued Clam set. From what I see, only Xinyan among the initial cast still needs something to make her relevant in combat gameplay.
Both imo.
In term of elements, Geo is still in a very bad shape to the point it is practically more of a meme than Physical. Their only reaction doesn't do much in the grand scheme of things since the shield strength of crystallize is way too weak and hardly worth the effort. Additionally, most geo character are detrimental for reactions in general. Finally, it just doesn't make sense it cannot react to Anemo and Dendro. Electro finally became somewhat functional but only with Dendro. Other reactions are still supbar except very niche stuff like Taser comps. Pyro reactions are fine except Burning, but the problem for that element is its roster: Hu Tao, Xiangling and Bennet are the MVP while Yoimiya is somewhat fine. The rest is pretty much too niche, mediocre or were completely powercrept. It is a bit too early to tell for Dendro since its roster is really small right now, but it seems rather balanced for the moment.
Anemo, Cryo and Hydro are probably the elements that need less tweaking in the lot, although I don't understand why Anemo and Cryo cannot interact with Dendro at all, and the "double aura" interactions aren't exactly worth doing some weird tri element shenanigans.

Regarding very specific characters that really need buffs or a rework (not including characters that are "merely" clunky like Sara, Shinobu and Dori):
-Aloy: I don't think I need to discuss about that character because her overall performance is flawed to no end.
-Qiqi: the healer set just doesn't cut it at all. Qiqi doesn't provide anything except healing and even that is pretty questionable because it is stuck with a skill that has an absurd CD (thus Sacrificial sword being mandatory for her), while generating absolutely 0 energy. She is still mediocre no matter how you look at it, especially that we got more healers now.
-Xinyan: nonsensical kit to the point you can't really do much, be it in term of defense or offense.
-Thoma: his only asset is the fact you can control burgeon without tipping reactions too much towards burning, but that doesn't mean it lead to impressive result whatsoever.
-Amber: she is plainly an Elegy carrier for dolphin/whales and that's about it.
-Barbara: almost as bad as Qiqi but has at least the advantage of being Hydro so a little more usefulness for an otherwise mediocre healer.
-Razor: quite outdated physical character and doesn't really line up with most character rotations.

You can obviously clear abyss with virtually any character, but the gap in term of efforts is enormous in certain cases. Meanwhile, regarding powercrept characters, there is no way anyone would deliberately use Diluc instead of Hu Tao in term of practicability for instance. Personal preferences aside, certain characters are way too strong/weak compared to others and it is quite obvious when you see how abyss character usage evolved over the patches, with certain characters being overly dominant compared to the rest.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tactics View Post
Looking at PS trophy for Genshin on my friend's, IIRC amount of endgame content clear is floating on 10%.
This isn't a relevant way to measure players engagement when it comes to endgame content. The majority of the playerbase is on mobile and PC. Additionally, I wouldn't trust trophy percentage at all because it is very likely it count every single account that are no longer active. After all, the trophy % related to unlocking the power of Geo for the Traveler is a puny 32% right now. In fact, the vast majority of the even easiest trophies are around 10-20% (e.g. opening 40 chests in Dragonspine). So yeah, the vast majority of PS accounts are just people who tried the Mondo arc and immediately lost interest in the game.
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Old 2022-10-05, 13:27   Link #939
Marina2
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tactics View Post
Is it really a test though? From what I read there, its more of they're backpedaling because what they intended failed.
One of comments mentioned how at first you need to maxed specific characters to clear endgame content. However after many complaint from casuals, they patched stuffs so casuals can cleared it as well. If it really a test then there should be mentioned about beta stage or looking for active feedback; won't be something new in gacha games, like first month of V2 system on GBF or Honkai Impact open-world mode.

I take it probably they once thought a big portion of Genshin playerbase will be similar to Honkai, min-maxed specific team(s) for sake of endgame content. Technically that's the only way to ensure money from unpopular or minor characters. Turned out its the opposite instead, based on income report, and complaint likely started to piled up; now I kinda get why there's some people joking like, "since Genshin only see actual spike in interest when new characters announced, then there's nothing to lose from no endgame" after the news.
They don't have to announce anything. They do the 'test' by releasing some harder than average Time-limited content to see how players react to it through out many patches and adjust a future content accordingly.

You might also notice that many time-limited event have a hidden "Platinum badge" (Pink color) rank reward if you can get very high score above "Gold". That is probably one way to test: "Will players challenge themselves to get higher score even if there is no reward?"

The respond/reception (From survey, etc) from player probably indicated that large group of player base can't handle any difficulty or player don't bother to do them because it is not worth an effort. So they assume there is no need to add anything harder than Abyss. (for now)
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Old 2022-10-06, 09:49   Link #940
Tactics
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Join Date: Jul 2011
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Klashikari View Post
This isn't a relevant way to measure players engagement when it comes to endgame content. The majority of the playerbase is on mobile and PC. Additionally, I wouldn't trust trophy percentage at all because it is very likely it count every single account that are no longer active. After all, the trophy % related to unlocking the power of Geo for the Traveler is a puny 32% right now. In fact, the vast majority of the even easiest trophies are around 10-20% (e.g. opening 40 chests in Dragonspine). So yeah, the vast majority of PS accounts are just people who tried the Mondo arc and immediately lost interest in the game.
Well, it originally come from curiosity to statement of "endgame cause anxiety".
Normally a developer won't say something like that unless the number is low across all platforms; closest available to me is my friend PS accounts.
That's why I also asked to other discussion which lead me to 20-25% estimated as I mentioned, aware of it being accessible from PC, Android and iOS.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Marina2 View Post
You might also notice that many time-limited event have a hidden "Platinum badge" (Pink color) rank reward if you can get very high score above "Gold". That is probably one way to test: "Will players challenge themselves to get higher score even if there is no reward?"
Oh, I thought what you meant by test is something like preparing new content given the topic.
Some posts on linked Reddit thread mentioned something like various kind of enemies resistance, mixed with "Thank god, its not happening further" kind of comments which somehow other comments came up with, "existence of endgame content equate to powercreep and I hate powercreep so its good".

If survey already be done, I guess the lack of interest to endgame stems from Genshin being first gacha games for a lot of people, on top of immense marketing about exploring, unlike Honkai that promote flashy action on their earlier advertisement; nothing to lose using resource for TCG feature assuming lack of endgame only affect less than one third the playerbase, majority still happy.
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