Shounen no Abyss

[frubam]

Originally Posted by Kanon

He definitely sees himself in Reiji (and others characters do as well, like Nagi) and Nagi as Yuko. I forgot what his exact words were, but back when Reiji was in the hospital and he pushed Nagi away, Esemori seemed very disappointed he didn't manage to save her.

I think he wants Reiji to do for Nagi what he couldn't do for Yuko.

That sounds pretty plausible, although that feels less personal. I would honestly prefer if his main intention was something more self-centered, like revenge. His whole "I WIN![laughs]" after Reiji and Yuko were in the hospital was a powerful defining moment for me since it was a very villainous depiction of everything he did in the story.

Him mentioning he's infertile felt like the author was twisting the knife
It also means things with Yuko would have never worked out, since she's wanted a child since she was a teenager. Now people are theorizing that Yuko isn't Reiji's mother either and that she's actually his aunt.

Haha , were are people getting that theory from??? If that's the case, that would be another crazy twist to add to the pile. This IS Yuko we are talking about so anything is possible, but that feels like quite the stretch to me. The guy that took Reiji to the beach is probably the biggest clue to any secret Yuko may still have at this point. I'm just not sure how that could tie into her being his aunt over his mother, despite the supposed similar features they share physically.

[Kanon]

Originally Posted by frubam

That sounds pretty plausible, although that feels less personal. I would honestly prefer if his main intention was something more self-centered, like revenge. His whole "I WIN![laughs]" after Reiji and Yuko were in the hospital was a powerful defining moment for me since it was a very villainous depiction of everything he did in the story.


Haha , were are people getting that theory from??? If that's the case, that would be another crazy twist to add to the pile. This IS Yuko we are talking about so anything is possible, but that feels like quite the stretch to me. The guy that took Reiji to the beach is probably the biggest clue to any secret Yuko may still have at this point. I'm just not sure how that could tie into her being his aunt over his mother, despite the supposed similar features they share physically.

I don't think it has to be one or the other. He wanted Yuko to suffer and for Reiji and Nagi to find happiness (note: the latter would be an even bigger fuck you to Yuko).

Esemori has been hinted to be the father so strongly that now that the author has pulled the rug under us, fans are now questioning everything we know.

[Kanon]

Spoiler for 109:

I'm glad Reiji called Esemori out on how hypocritical he is. He's really almost as bad as Yuko as a person. He also rightfully points out he never tried to get Yuko's side of the story and that the fact he's named Reiji proves she cared about him.

I'm super confused by Reiji calling him "dad" as he was leaving. Did he figure Esemori lied to him or is it just a "I wish you could have been my dad" moment?

Nagi came back right on cue. This is fate. Don't fuck it up, boy!

[frubam]

Spoiler for 109:

Yeah, you were spot on with the Yuko observation. I agreed with the explanation, but it's always nice to get the answer in-story from the main character. Reiji's name is a pretty clear and undeniable status of Yuko's feelings for Nozoe. Also right about the way Akira had a narrowed perspective of Yuko's feelings and never really tried to figure out how she was truly feeling. I could have seen this as he was also overly critical of Uryu too, but it was hard to deviate from thinking differently due to the way the story built up Nozoe to be "Reiji's savior" and how they demonized Yuko.

I have to say, Reiji defending Yuko like this is making me rethink how critical I am about her. Like, I expected the worst when she took Ms Shiba to Gen's dad, but her only intention(seemingly at least) was to let him know about Gen. I mean, sure, there are prob machinations at work, but it will be hard to actually gauge what side of the line she's on until we get her side of the story. Also once again makes me realize how astute Reiji is. I think this may paint a very broad picture of why he still indulges her. He might realize some feelings of Yuko that only he understands and that may be one if the reasons(aside from the conditioning ofc) he continues to put up with her.

I think we can say that Nozoe is not the father. His flashback story is over, and in a previous chapter he stated it was 32 yrs since he went back to the town. And in this chapter, he mentions about resurfacing feelings upon seeing Yuko again. I think It's safe to say he really hadn't seen Yuko since he left and he is not the father. I'd definitely say Reiji sees him as a father. It'd certainly feel right considering his role to Reiji in the story.

A bit surprised Nagi showed up, but I guess this would be the most organic way to reintroduce her into the story. I wonder if we will get a Nagi flashback next, esp after what Reiji said to Nozoe about asking why Nagi wanted to die. Or are they gonna find Chako? I feel like this is Reiji's only chance to reconnect with Nagi. If he doesn't, and she leaves, it feels like they will prob never meet again. Not sure he can screw it up outside not telling her what he really wants, and trying to play Mr. Good Guy by telling her to live.

[Kanon]

Originally Posted by frubam

Spoiler for 109:

Yeah, you were spot on with the Yuko observation. I agreed with the explanation, but it's always nice to get the answer in-story from the main character. Reiji's name is a pretty clear and undeniable status of Yuko's feelings for Nozoe. Also right about the way Akira had a narrowed perspective of Yuko's feelings and never really tried to figure out how she was truly feeling. I could have seen this as he was also overly critical of Uryu too, but it was hard to deviate from thinking differently due to the way the story built up Nozoe to be "Reiji's savior" and how they demonized Yuko.

I have to say, Reiji defending Yuko like this is making me rethink how critical I am about her. Like, I expected the worst when she took Ms Shiba to Gen's dad, but her only intention(seemingly at least) was to let him know about Gen. I mean, sure, there are prob machinations at work, but it will be hard to actually gauge what side of the line she's on until we get her side of the story. Also once again makes me realize how astute Reiji is. I think this may paint a very broad picture of why he still indulges her. He might realize some feelings of Yuko that only he understands and that may be one if the reasons(aside from the conditioning ofc) he continues to put up with her.

I think we can say that Nozoe is not the father. His flashback story is over, and in a previous chapter he stated it was 32 yrs since he went back to the town. And in this chapter, he mentions about resurfacing feelings upon seeing Yuko again. I think It's safe to say he really hadn't seen Yuko since he left and he is not the father. I'd definitely say Reiji sees him as a father. It'd certainly feel right considering his role to Reiji in the story.

A bit surprised Nagi showed up, but I guess this would be the most organic way to reintroduce her into the story. I wonder if we will get a Nagi flashback next, esp after what Reiji said to Nozoe about asking why Nagi wanted to die. Or are they gonna find Chako? I feel like this is Reiji's only chance to reconnect with Nagi. If he doesn't, and she leaves, it feels like they will prob never meet again. Not sure he can screw it up outside not telling her what he really wants, and trying to play Mr. Good Guy by telling her to live.

Spoiler for 109:

I was honestly surprised Gen's dad really only ended up having a talk with Shiba, especially given his history of burying corpses. The plan to make Gen come back home and clear him of all charges is probably nothing good though.

I agree this is Reiji's last chance to reconnect with Nagi, since they're part of completely different worlds. He should have understood from Esemori's account that Nagi chose him herself and wasn't following Esemori's orders or anything. He already realized he said the exact same thing to her that she did to Esemori, meaning they're very similar.

[dark44]

i never liked Yuko every chapter prove that she is the cause of every thing wrong in the manga and i feel bad for reiji big step brother cause his father was killed and he have no blood ties to this shit family but cant leave

akira and his father should pay for thier crimes and akira was a minor i dont think he well be severly punished

[Kanon]

Originally Posted by dark44

i never liked Yuko every chapter prove that she is the cause of every thing wrong in the manga and i feel bad for reiji big step brother cause his father was killed and he have no blood ties to this shit family but cant leave

Reiji gave his step-brother a golden opportunity to walk away and be done with them for good, but all it took was Yuko to buy him a round with a prostitute for him to decide to stay. He's completely hopeless, even Reiji has rightfully given up on him.

[frubam]

Originally Posted by Kanon

Reiji gave his step-brother a golden opportunity to walk away and be done with them for good, but all it took was Yuko to buy him a round with a prostitute for him to decide to stay. He's completely hopeless, even Reiji has rightfully given up on him.

Hmmm..is that how it really is? It didn't feel as much as him wanting to stay as much as Yuko trying to convince Reiji he is a lost cause and dependent on her. Especially when he could have still given Kazu the money and told him to leave, where he could use the money to buy prostitutes. The moment Reiji walked in, and saw he was still Yuko's puppet, he knew that Kazu would never truly have the drive to leave.

[Kanon]

Originally Posted by frubam

Hmmm..is that how it really is? It didn't feel as much as him wanting to stay as much as Yuko trying to convince Reiji he is a lost cause and dependent on her. Especially when he could have still given Kazu the money and told him to leave, where he could use the money to buy prostitutes. The moment Reiji walked in, and saw he was still Yuko's puppet, he knew that Kazu would never truly have the drive to leave.

My point is if Kazu really wanted to leave he would have never fallen for the trap.

New's chapter's out. Don't fuck with Shiba-sensei!!!

[frubam]

D**N, Yuko using Shiba's story to entice Gendad to commit suicide, and put the blame of killing Kazu's dad onto him. This also kinda forces Gen to come back to deal with it, though I don't see how exactly this exonerates him from nearly killing his girlfriend. Well it did look cool; Shiba saving Gen's dad and shouting a declaration, but we'll see if it actually amounts to something. Yuko's always looking at the long game, and who knows, maybe Kazu and Yuko mom said all that as a trap.

I guess Gen's dad has outlived his usefulness. Still its strange to see him concerned to this extent; that he'd be willing to give up his life for his son's.

The scene with Nagi was rather interesting. It showed that Reiji feels like he is similar to Yuko in how he treated Nagi. His mother told him to live, even though she wanted to live in that town together with him and/or die together(honestly no clue which at this point), and he said the same to Nagi. He told her to live for her sake, but in reality, he just wanted her to die with him. I wonder if him feeling similar to Yuko is the reason he can't abandon her, and/or sympathizes with her.

[Kanon]

I don't think Gen's dad surviving was planned, but you can never know with Yuko.

Reiji really shouldn't compare himself to her. He never actively tried to hurt people. Perhaps she wasn't always this way (still waiting for her POV), but the current Yuko is pure evil. She manipulated a kid into killing her husband for her, FFS.

[Kanon]

Spoiler for 112:

Sure wonder what Yuko was going to say when she claimed her husband wanting a child from her was "absurd". Yuko being Reiji's aunt theories intensify... I mean, the only known male adults in the series are her husband, Esemori, Gen's dad, and her brother. We know it's not any of the first four so that only leaves one. I doubt the reveal will be that Reiji's father is a literally who.

I wonder how much of that story she told Kazu is true though. She never seemed to give much of a crap about him, but that could explain why she wants to keep him under her roof too.

[frubam]

I dunno if I buy the aunt theory just yet. If she did take Reiji from somewhere, that wouldn't explain why their features are so similar(according to a few chars). If Kazu's dad was so belligerent when he found out Reiji wasn't his, then at the very least, Yuko would have had signs that she was pregnant. Else, how could she deceive him for so long? Just showing up outta nowhere with a kid or baby is definitely not something I could believe happened. Then there's the name Reiji. If he was born with someone else, how'd she change the name?

I wouldn't count out the brother until the mystery of the "uncle" from chp 86 gets cleared up. It's still possible she had an affair during the marriage just so she could give birth.

Ofc it is possible that Yuko having sex at such a young age who knows how many times might prevent her from having children now. Then she claims Kazu dad might be impotent, but he was able to have a child which shows he's not. So I'm believing the aunt theory as a possibility at least, but not sold on it just yet.

On a random note, that pained expression on Yuko's face just before the "absurd" panel... starting to put me back into the "sympathy for Yuko" camp again. But Yuko has been known to lie, so I too wonder how much of what she said to Kazu was true. The same thing that happened to Uryu happened to Kazu's dad; a seeming nice guy eventually turns into a violent person. The common thread is only Yuko, so I feel there is still something she left out that explains the behavior change. But the expression on her face tells me she is reflecting on something very sorrowful, so that makes me wonder if it was something out of her control. I could go on and on, back and forth.

[Kanon]

Originally Posted by frubam

I dunno if I buy the aunt theory just yet. If she did take Reiji from somewhere, that wouldn't explain why their features are so similar(according to a few chars). If Kazu's dad was so belligerent when he found out Reiji wasn't his, then at the very least, Yuko would have had signs that she was pregnant. Else, how could she deceive him for so long? Just showing up outta nowhere with a kid or baby is definitely not something I could believe happened. Then there's the name Reiji. If he was born with someone else, how'd she change the name?

Reiji being her brother's son would be more than enough to explain them looking alike. Her panicking so much when he showed up to take Reiji to the beach hints she was afraid he would take him away, meaning he has a legitimate claim over Reiji.

Regarding Kazu's dad finding out Reiji wasn't his son later, we only have Yuko's word for it. Before this chapter, she said he started getting violent after suspecting Reiji wasn't his son, but now she tells us it happened before Reiji was even born and that he even went after Kazu. So which is it?

[frubam]

Originally Posted by Kanon

Reiji being her brother's son would be more than enough to explain them looking alike. Her panicking so much when he showed up to take Reiji to the beach hints she was afraid he would take him away, meaning he has a legitimate claim over Reiji.

That is a good point. Didn't think of that. Probably a heck more likely than some crazy incest plot like I was thinking . I still can't fully abide to this theory for the aforementioned reasons though(aside from Reiji's looks).

Regarding Kazu's dad finding out Reiji wasn't his son later, we only have Yuko's word for it. Before this chapter, she said he started getting violent after suspecting Reiji wasn't his son, but now she tells us it happened before Reiji was even born and that he even went after Kazu. So which is it?

It's not mutually exclusive is it? He could have started to go off-the-rails until she got pregnant, and then he could have been fine from that point on until Yuko told him the truth. Ofc this is Yuko, so its possible she could have simply lied, with Kazu's dad knowing the truth the whole time, but the way she was looking, I don't believe it is a blatant lie. Flimsy reason, just going by how sad she was looking, but its just how I feel at this point.

[frubam]

I was on the reddit and I saw a topic asking about understanding Chako. That got me thinking about it a little more and I had this response(just gonna copy the post I replied to and my reply cause i'm lazy =0v)

Spoiler for commenter reply:

Hmm, it's been awhile since I last revised the last 20 or 40 English translated chapters, but I remember Chako telling Reiji that she didn't care much about him for most of his life.

Her father told her, when she was a little kid, that Reiji was a good kid, but that he was someone who was not worthwhile making friends with, and as such Chako grew up seeing Reiji as being beneath him.

Then she ''introduced'' him to Nagi by showing him video clips of Nagi's idol pop band, and he sorta got hooked on it and developed a fan-based crush on Nagi, and then when Nagi came to town, and Chako just happened to see Nagi and Reiji riding on his bike all lovey-dovey, she became really jealous and developed a somewhat twisted romantic interest in Reiji.

It doesn't happen that the guy has rejected her sexual advances only god knows how many times, which I suppose can be pretty hurtful for a woman, considering quite a lot of guys don't have any standards in women, and will smash anything.

So for Chako to be offering free sex and for Reiji to reject it.. ouch, her self-esteem takes a nosedive.

Even when she lost massive amounts of weight and changed herself to ressemble Nagi as much as possible, Reiji still wouldn't sleep with her or date her. That adds insult to injury, because she knows how obsessed Reiji is with Nagi, and Chako was trying to replace Nagi in reiji's life, and despite looking so much like Nagi, now, the kid still doesn't want to sleep with her.

I feel like Chako has never been interested in Reiji, at least romantically, but growing up, in a small town with very few kids her age, and with a growing desire in her heart to leave her town and to move to Tokyo, she began to see Reiji as her ticket out of Tokyo, like Esemori's experience with that girl who also wanted to leave their town with him, to move to Tokyo.

Chako somehow tricked herself into believing she is in love with Reiji. But she is not. Right now, the only woman who is in love with Reiji is sensei and sensei is, well... kinda mentally ill, and way too old for Reiji?

There's Gen, but reiji isn't attracted to men.

Anyway...I'm a bit concerned about Chako.

When Reiji law saw Chako he seeded her mind with the possibility and desire for suicide, and they lost their way when they arrived in Tokyo, and haven't seen each other in what, 1 to 3 days up until Nagi takes Reiji to her run-down apartment to tell him her life story?

It's possible that Chako is gonna try to kill herself.

Spoiler for my reply:

Great points, really enjoyed reading everyone's response, but I'd like to add some clarifications(imo ofc).

Reiji turned Chako down sexually only once. They only had 2 chances to have sex; at the manga Cafe and when he visited her at her home after her weight loss. At the manga cafe,, Reiji told her that she was special to him, and that by having sex, she would be like everyone else. This same event actually happens in the author's previous work, Himegoto. Reiji was willing to commit to have sex with her(like Nagi, he is a person who will try to satisfy others, even if he is against it) but she declined, since she didn't want to lose that special place in his heart. I think this is important to remember, since she is the only character he has had a positive appreciative comment for.

Gen never really "loved" Reiji. Reiji himself conjectured this, but given the events its clear that who Gen actually loves is Yuko. Gen himself probably twisted his perspective of loving Reiji as a coping mechanism, making himself believe it was for Reiji when it was actually for Yuko.

I don't think Chako "tricked" herself to like Reiji. I feel that Chako has loved Reiji, before she even realized it. Yes, at 1st, she did see him as someone pitiful, and indulged in this "superiority", but after the first kiss playground event, she saw him in a different light. Maybe even before then. It's not like he only said some honeyed words(which he did), but it was also all the previous interactions that he was something important to her. Leaving Tokyo was just a pretext; she could have done so during the Reiji-Yuko standoff if she asked for Esemori's help, but what she really wanted was to be with Reiji. That's why she was so dejected when he abandoned her. I think this is a bit of a parallel with Yuko, since she was also abandoned by Akira(which was mostly because he felt inadequate to Uryu, but still, the end result is the same).

I also feel that people may be undermining Reiji's concern for Chako. I still believe that she holds a special place in his heart. Right now, I think that what Chako is going through is very much like what Reiji has been through and that the penultimate climax will be how he pulls her from this depressed state. You compared Chako to past-Saki, and for good reason. However I think that she is more like past-Yuko where she is slowly being pushed into a corner(not considering possible past-Yuko machinations) and needs(wants) to be saved... or she'll edge herself to her death..

This current interaction with Nagi is just a means to that end.... at least that's what I feel. But we'll see....

[Kanon]

That was an interesting read, but Chako is personally the character I care the least about. I find her pretty boring compared to all the other girls.

[frubam]

Spoiler for 113:

Slow paced chapter, basically looking like they are finally showing a glimpse of Nagi backstory. I can't even guess as to what that one panel could mean outside of something occurring during her childhood. Author sure knows how to tease the chars backstory .

Funny how Reiji says he hates Esemori's guts and that he's glad hes not the father when he gave a much different impression as he left the hospital. I supposed it's the same love-hate relationship he has with Yuko.

Not sure who the "I'm sorry" was directed to or who said it.

Showing a peek of Chako as well. Wondering if they are gonna start wrapping the non-Yuko story ends up?

Originally Posted by Kanon

That was an interesting read, but Chako is personally the character I care the least about. I find her pretty boring compared to all the other girls.

Really? Shame. I know I'm still on that ship since way ba k when, but i would have liked to know your thoughts from an overall point of view so far, but oh well....

[Kanon]

Originally Posted by frubam

Really? Shame. I know I'm still on that ship since way ba k when, but i would have liked to know your thoughts from an overall point of view so far, but oh well....

Well, if you really want to know I more or less agree with the first reply you quoted. Chako isn't actually in love with Reiji. She saw him as beneath her all this time, and only started looking his way when she found out he banged an idol. Then she became obsessed with proving she was "better". Remember how much she gloated when they saw Nagi on a magazine and she thought she was forever out of Reiji's reach, only to later find out Nagi went out of her way to visit him at the hospital which made her seethe hard. What she's feeling is maybe 60% jealousy, 30% misplaced pride, and 10% love.

I used to like her a lot but ever since she went down that path, she lost all her kind childhood friend appeal. Now she's ordinary.

In comparison, Nagi has the "mysterious" and out of reach appeal, Yuko has the bewitching evil beauty appeal, and Shiba has the batshit crazy but well meaning appeal.

[Kanon]

Spoiler for 114:

It's probably something I forgot, but how does Chako have Nagi's number? And geez, she is really obsessed.