Shin Sekai Yori - Episode 11 Discussion / Poll

[momonae]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

There's this strange land where there are only two types of edible food: Apples and Oranges. You tell the youth of that land to eat freely, and to their heart's content, but you also tell them that they may not eat any Apples. Is that not essentially encouraging them to eat Oranges?

But the authority didn't tell the youth of that land to eat "freely, and to their heart's content" in the first place. I can't quote so read yourself around the part of the novel where Saki saw Shun and Satoru's affair.

Um, because we don't see anybody having more than one sexual partner at a time. Saki and Maria seem perfectly monogamous with one another. Satoru seemed perfectly monogamous with Shun until Shun dumped him. Shun seemed perfectly monogamous while he was with Satoru.

But the conversation between the library and the kids implies....

To the extent that we see their unnamed peers, they're portrayed in groups of two. They're portrayed as romantic couples, in other words. I don't recall ever seeing a group of three all holding hands, for example.

This is one of the reason why I said the anime's presentation is bad. And even if a group of three is in relationship do they hold hands together at the same time?

[kuromitsu]

Originally Posted by momonae

But the authority didn't tell the youth of that land to eat "freely, and to their heart's content" in the first place. I can't quote so read yourself around the part of the novel where Saki saw Shun and Satoru's affair.

Allow me:
倫理委員会も、教育委員会も、男女の交際に対しては、きわめて厳格だった。そのため、わたした ちの年齢では 、異性に対する思いは抑圧され、プラトニックに限定された。
その一方、男の子同士、女の子同士の場合であれば、度を超した親密さも大目にみられる雰囲気が あったために 、小数の例外を除くほとんど全員が、同性を、とりあえずの恋愛と性の対象にしていたはずだ。

[Forsaken_Infinity]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

Oh, one final note... As big of a Shun fan as I am (I wonder if I'm one of those "cheap fans" in Forsaken_Infinity's eyes ), I don't want Shun to come back. His death has more meaning, and this narrative has greater integrity, if he doesn't come back. If Shun comes back, it'll instantly remind me of how cheap death is in modern comic book universes.

No you're not I wasn't really referring to anybody in particular, and it was more a rage at people from elsewhere and at how I was getting vibes that the discussion was going to get very derailed here as well. Zealous isn't how I would describe the majority of AS posters really.

Originally Posted by Triple_R

You're right. Honestly, I found it surprising how these kids could survive (and largely in peace) for so long in spite of what happened during The Queerat War Adventure (i.e. "Summer Camp").

I seriously have to wonder if Satoru (and, by extension, his closest friends) have a bit of a privileged status due to Satoru's grandmother being head of the Ethics Committee.

With Shun, perhaps they gave him every last chance before he was just too far gone. With Saki, they were willing to overlook her arguably dangerous degrees of inquisitiveness, and with Mamoru they were willing to overlook his emotional fragility as long as he doesn't cause too many problems.

He's ideal for keeping in the dark, but that doesn't mean he's ideal for being an adult in this world. Like ogon_bat wrote, adults in this world likely have to HELP with the charade. I have serious doubts that Mamoru could do that.

If you're suggesting that this society allows for Nepotism, I somehow doubt it. It could go either way with people with stronger powers getting more leeway with corruption but I somehow doubt a society with that many dark secrets and with essentially every member capable of manipulating nature itself would allow for special treatment.

I think there are several other and much more plausible reasons behind the kids' survival.

For one, I don't think the society "wants" to get rid of their children. As long as they aren't very weak or very unstable, I think they want to keep the kids around. Why would they kill off these strong kids who not only survived a dangerous adventure but were also resourceful enough to get their cantus back when they're eventually going to be let in the secret as adults anyway? There is no reason to get rid of them. Not when they have proven themselves to have the mental aptitude to stay strong and resourceful.

For another, it could just be that the society can't really get rid of them as long as they were with humans. There is that whole death feedback deal. Satoru was right when he said they were most endangered when they were outside the village with the BakeNezumi. They are most safe right in the village. The adults could send a cat to hunt them etc. but that is probably not worth it unless it's an extreme case.

With Shun, the guy was a genius. His teacher clearly regretted his fate until the very end. A society that is so dependent on power to survive would be dumb to get rid of it's prodigies until it's just impossible to survive without getting rid of them.

Saki has proven to be very resourceful and to have great mental fortitude. If the preview is anything to go by ("you're the only one who can do this") then the village is rather impressed with her if anything.

Why would they get rid of Mamoru so long as he believes their stuff? They have ample time to slowly convert him. A pacified populace is ideal to rule with an iron fist with select emotionally strong leaders. Mamoru is more or less an ideal kid to brainwash and turn into a normal citizen for this world.

[Rakshasa]

Originally Posted by kuromitsu

Allow me:

Ahem... spoiler tags please? Just because you think no one can read moon language doesn't mean no one can.

[kuromitsu]

Originally Posted by Rakshasa

Ahem... spoiler tags please? Just because you think no one can read moon language doesn't mean no one can.

...but it's not spoiler? It's from the part momonae mentioned which corresponds to episode 8 in the anime.

(I'd post a translation but I was waiting in case someone whose first language is English wants to do it. *shrug*)

[momonae]

Originally Posted by kuromitsu

Allow me:

Spoiler for the part of the novel on the matter:

倫理委員会も、教育委員会も、男女の交際に対しては、きわめて厳格だった。そのため、わたした ちの年齢では 、異性に対する思いは抑圧され、プラトニックに限定された。
その一方、男の子同士、女の子同士の場合であれば、度を超した親密さも大目にみられる雰囲気が あったために 、小数の例外を除くほとんど全員が、同性を、とりあえずの恋愛と性の対象にしていたはずだ。

Yes, this is exactly the part I wanted to quote.
(I added spoiler tags, since I was already chided for the novel comparison.)

[endlessabyss]

What did Saki mean by there was confusion in Satou's eyes; that 'he had seen seen something completely irreconcilable with common sense'?

[kuromitsu]

Originally Posted by endlessabyss

What did Saki mean by there was confusion in Satou's eyes; that 'he had seen seen something completely irreconcilable with common sense'?

I think that was a bit of an unfortunate translation. Satoru watches Saki and Ryou return from a situation where he can easily deduce what they were talking about (Ryou basically asking her out), and he thinks "This does not compute, at all."

It's not made very obvious, but it's suggested that Satoru is weirded out by the entire situation. It takes Saki's question about why he liked Ryou to make him realize why, but he doesn't understand why he has memories of feeling so strongly for someone to whom he feels no connection whatsoever.

[Rakshasa]

Originally Posted by endlessabyss

What did Saki mean by there was confusion in Satou's eyes; that 'he had seen seen something completely irreconcilable with common sense'?

さとるの目を見たとき、そっくりとしたそこにあったのは、純粋(じゅんすい,pure,genuine)な 不可解さ(ふかかい,baffling,incomprehensible)でも形容(けいよう,disp lay)すべきだ…人が全く理解できない存在を見る時の目だった。

When I saw Satoru's eyes, in them there was displayed what I can only make out to have been genuine bafflement (pure incomprehensibility)... It was the eyes of a person who was seeing the existence of something he could not in any way comprehend.

Best I could make of it.

[endlessabyss]

Originally Posted by kuromitsu

I think that was a bit of an unfortunate translation. Satoru watches Saki and Ryou return from a situation where he can easily deduce what they were talking about (Ryou basically asking her out), and he thinks "This does not compute, at all."

It's not made very obvious, but it's suggested that Satoru is weirded out by the entire situation. It takes Saki's question about why he liked Ryou to make him realize why, but he doesn't understand why he has memories of feeling so strongly for someone to whom he feels no connection whatsoever.

Situation? His strong feelings for a random person is what is causing him to be 'weirded out by the entire situation'? Why he found it odd for Ryou to ask Saki out?

What was going through Satoru's brain when he was passing by Ryou and Saki down the stairs? Is there a play-by-play on what is happening in his thoughts? because the anime only gave a snap-shot scene of Satoru oddly looking at Saki and Ryou.

---

(Sorry. It sometimes take me time to process information, and I really want to understand the anime/franchise, so please bear with me. Thanks. ^^; )

Originally Posted by Rakshasa

さとるの目を見たとき、そっくりとしたそこにあったのは、純粋(じゅんすい,pure,genuine)な 不可解さ(ふかかい,baffling,incomprehensible)でも形容(けいよう,disp lay)すべきだ…人が全く理解できない存在を見る時の目だった。

When I saw Satoru's eyes, in them there was displayed what I can only make out to have been genuine bafflement (pure incomprehensibility)... It was the eyes of a person who was seeing the existence of something he could not in any way comprehend.

Best I could make of it.

Thanks for the translation. It makes the scene more understandable.

[CJ_Walker]

Originally Posted by Kazu-kun

No, in the novel there was a specific reason for homosexual parings until adulthood. I don't know why the anime skipped over this. .

Shock value plain and simple. They knew that was going to be weird. . .this is Japan the Japanese aren't known for really being accepting of homosexual behavior. . .

actually, they laugh and point fun at it and other deviant behavior all the time... most people outside of Japan really wouldn't know, as they just don't talk about stuff like that, so yeah definitely for the shock value, otherwise, they wouldn't have skipped over it.

laughing at something is not accepting it

[kuromitsu]

Originally Posted by endlessabyss

Situation? His strong feelings for a random person is what is causing him to be 'weirded out by the entire situation'? Why he found it odd for Ryou to ask Saki out?

What was going through Satoru's brain when he was passing by Ryou and Saki down the stairs? Is there a play-by-play on what was happening in his thoughts? because the anime only gave a snap-shot scene of Satoru oddly looking at Saki and Ryou.

He finds the whole situation odd, for the same reason as Saki. It's not that Ryou asked her out but seeing the two of them together just doesn't ring true. Also, he has a memory of feeling very strongly for Ryou and taking their break-up pretty badly, and yet he feels nothing for him, not even when he sees him asking someone else out. Like Saki, he knows he's supposed to have been in love with this guy and yet he can't imagine loving him. It takes Saki's question about why he fell in love with Ryou in the first place to make him realize that this is because it wasn't Ryou that he loved.

[Guido]

Every nightmare that Saki has lived through is converging to be taking shape in the next episode.

For this one the writers linked back the unresolved plots that this show clearly made aware its audience to take note and save them.

- Reiko's getting spirited away from episode one.
- The school's tournament from episode two.
- The summer camp trip from before the time-skip in episode four.
- The aftermath of what they did that summer from before the time-skip in episode seven.

This is going to culminate with Saki and friends formally meeting with the secret chairman of the Committe of Ethics, Asahina Tomiko, Satoru's grandma.

Ok. Let's review what's the fearsome deal about the village's system:

Spoiler:

Possible or not that the system was elaborately constructed by the villagers' ancestors to condition next generations from a young age to breed peaceful humans using their Canti in such a way that they won't be posing a threat to other humans, to their environment, and to themselves.

What happens of children that fail to either follow the system or meeting up high expectations as a result?
- The adults release beasts called fake cats to hunt such failures or problem children. Then by spreading rumors it's made seem as such people got spirited away so as no one outside the involved party attempts to pry on the subject further.
- Cases like Saki's elder sister, Yoshimi, are instead made to appear as if it was a natural accident, if the individual is well known or terribly missed by his or her family.
- The causes decide upon to get rid of any particular include but are not limited to:
a) The child gets too late or fails graduating from honorary school in his or her childhood.
// I do recall that conversation Saki secretly overheard from her parents worrying that she might not had made it graduating early from to honorary school and moving to Harmony school.
b) The child is a constant failure and doesn't meet up expectations with the rigorous course of tests and training at Harmony School.
// Saki and friends while discussing that their memories were tinkered with in the eleventh episode they can vaguely reminiscence that their group of four, actually, consisted of others: X's (Shun) and another. The another was their childhood friend Reiko featured only in the first episode, who was a constant dropout failing at school and suddenly disappeared one day.
c) The child is prone to rebellious behavior for breaking the Code of Ethics and Virtue rules, that he or she might be feared of becoming a karma demon if left alone.
// In the second episode, a tournament was held at school involving children from two different teams using their Canti to place their rolling stone into the opposing team's territory. A boy, Manabu, from the opposing team playing against Saki's team intentionally broke the rules to cheat his way to victory without remorse. Also, the first and second episode played a special importance about the story of the egotistical boy whom eventually turned into a karma demon by accumulating bad karma for not heeding the adults. The said story alluded too much about Manabu, and at the end he disappeared. This same story is again revisited in the tenth episode with Shun explaining in full detail the origin of the karma demon to Saki.
d) The child found out the truth or contents related to it about the secret history of the world from an outside source that the elders deemed heretical or forbidden.
// The children's chance encounter with the minoshiro during the summer camp from episode three to four, which it offered a historical, compiled narrative about how humanity came to be in the story's present timeline. This revelation came as a cold knife stabbed into the childrens' backs, because now they doubted who were their real ancestors: the tribe of Wisemen who used science to make their current peaceful world, or the tribe who rose to power in opposition to the normal human race giving birth to the tyrannical despots that used their Canti to suppress, torture, and kill either for fun or delight other humans with or without Cantus. The minoshiro, in turn, was destroyed by Rijin to silence the truth.
e) The child breaks the rules by engaging in behavior deemed suspicious by the Virtue and Ethics Committee.
// Ever since returning from the summer camp to the village, Saki has been suspecting a possible reprisal from the adults. Among other events: She and Satoru got directly involved in the conflict between the two different Bakenezumi colonies. Having all five lives secretly spared by General Kiromaru himself from the victorious Bakenezumi colony, though him taking a huge risk for the children by disobeying orders from the Virtue and Ethics Commitee. Saki helping to restore her friends' Canti, and all five of them hiding the fact that their Canti originally was suppressed by Rijin for violating the rules, and thus fooling the adults intentionally to keep themselves alive.
All other investigations that the children have been doing on their own from the eighth episode to this eleventh one, after the time skip.
f) The child either by accident or deliberately loses control of his or her Cantus.
// Shun became afflicted with this condition and told the truth to Saki about what karma demons truly are and the relationship with the Hashimoto-Appelbaum Syndrome before his demise in the tenth episode.

The result is ....

Spoiler:

the execution of said child, and if his or her presence poses not that much of an influence amongst his or her classmates, then the memories about that child are tampered or sealed amongst the rest of the children so that they cannot pry into the past to question about the executed's existence.

Though this particularly scenario looks like that doesn't apply to the adults, because Sakis' parents are perfectly able to remember Yoshimi and are missing her so much, but they have been cautious enough not to disclose her name in front of Saki. Neither they have let known to Saki that she once had an elder sister.