(L) BLUE DROP ~Tenshitachi no Gikyoku~

[Solace]

I don't mind thinking about it on a deeper level. Many technologies we once thought "ridiculous" or "impossible" are in common use today or are now being entertained as actual possibility. If it wasn't for people imagining this stuff I wonder how far society as a whole would have actually progressed.

Now the premise might be a bit on the fantastic side but the implications of "what if" certainly can bear fruitful discussion.

[Kieli]

Originally Posted by Solace

I don't mind thinking about it on a deeper level. Many technologies we once thought "ridiculous" or "impossible" are in common use today or are now being entertained as actual possibility. If it wasn't for people imagining this stuff I wonder how far society as a whole would have actually progressed.

Now the premise might be a bit on the fantastic side but the implications of "what if" certainly can bear fruitful discussion.

It really all depends. Insofar as the technologies are concerned, sure, anything is possible. However, biology is one of those things that, though manipulated to some extent, really has not changed much; just variations of the same theme. Now if someone found a way for a guy to get pregnant and share the "joys" of childbirth (I use that term oh so loosely because I personally cannot imagine why a woman would go through that much pain willingly and call it a joy), that, IMHO, will have been the ultimate discovery. And for me, before I can remotely go into an in-depth discussion on the "what-ifs" of genetics, I would prefer to have more training and knowledge beyond my genetics and virology classes as an undergrad.

[Diodati]

Originally Posted by changeup

Spoiler for about the title:

The subtitle for the finale is "Rosmarinus". It means "Memory", and it is the symbol of love and chastity in Japanese... shoot... am I predicting a lot of us will be very emotionally challenged after the "fin"?

I just wanted to chime in:

Rosmarinus is latin

Spoiler:

for 'dew/drops of the sea'. Which is pretty close to 'drop/s [from] the blue', or 'blue drop'. ^_^ The herb Rosemary also derives its name from Rosmarinus, because it has 'blue drop' shaped flowers - and because it loves water. Reminds me of certain Arume race.

Rosmarinus and Rosemary are though, you're right, very much connected with 'memory' and 'purifying the mind.' It might be looking into it too much (but given the nature of the series, probably not) -- Rosemary/Rosmarinus was considered sacred -- protective -- and used to keep evil spirits, demons or witches at bay.

I can't speak for the Japanese association of the term, but yup.

You guys can go back to the sex-talk and genetics now =)

[changeup]

Seriously, the mode the aliens producing offsprings maybe not entirely off. There are many species in the earth that can get by with only FEMALES. Biologically, only a few gene regulation changes in the oocyte are needed to achieve this.

We have seen species that female alone can produce female offsprings. It mostly happens in lower animals. But in higher animal like reptiles, sometimes it still happens. As I mentioned, a species of lizard. They still need to mate though (talking about scientific basis for shojo-ai)...

Basically, the default sex of human is female. Male needs a few genes to be turned on to add some features on...... it can be argued that males are only devices for females to transmit genes within the population... it is not totally out of line males is unnecessary if females can produce offsprings themselves and some type of gene diversification methods can be achieved...

Originally Posted by Kieli

It really all depends. Insofar as the technologies are concerned, sure, anything is possible. However, biology is one of those things that, though manipulated to some extent, really has not changed much; just variations of the same theme. Now if someone found a way for a guy to get pregnant and share the "joys" of childbirth (I use that term oh so loosely because I personally cannot imagine why a woman would go through that much pain willingly and call it a joy), that, IMHO, will have been the ultimate discovery. And for me, before I can remotely go into an in-depth discussion on the "what-ifs" of genetics, I would prefer to have more training and knowledge beyond my genetics and virology classes as an undergrad.

[Kieli]

Originally Posted by Diodati

I just wanted to chime in:

Rosmarinus is latin

Spoiler:

for 'dew/drops of the sea'. Which is pretty close to 'drop/s [from] the blue', or 'blue drop'. ^_^ The herb Rosemary also derives its name from Rosmarinus, because it has 'blue drop' shaped flowers - and because it loves water. Reminds me of certain Arume race.

Rosmarinus and Rosemary are though, you're right, very much connected with 'memory' and 'purifying the mind.' It might be looking into it too much (but given the nature of the series, probably not) -- Rosemary/Rosmarinus was considered sacred -- protective -- and used to keep evil spirits, demons or witches at bay.

I can't speak for the Japanese association of the term, but yup.

You guys can go back to the sex-talk and genetics now =)

Heh, don't you know that girls love it when you talk science to them?

Basically, the default sex of human is female. Male needs a few genes to be turned on to add some features on...... it can be argued that males are only devices for females to transmit genes within the population... it is not totally out of line males is unnecessary if females can produce offsprings themselves and some type of gene diversification methods can be achieved...

While this is true to a certain extent, the conditions for this to happen are usually fairly extreme (i.e. a severe shortage of eligible males to propagate a species, certain environmental factors, etc). There is a reason why only a handful of species have this ability. Arume may be such a species but clearly they are having problems with this since they are having to look outside of their realm in order to acquire a fresh infusion of diversity into their genome. One wonders how they even know that human females' genes are even compatible with their own. They must have had some sort of research team on the planet for this purpose prior to making plans for an all out invasion. I can't imagine they would overrun a planet only to find that they can't make this interspecies fertilization happen. That would "suck immensely".

[changeup]

Thank you very much for this information. It really explained a lot of things, and how fitting it is for the subtitle of the finale!!!

Originally Posted by Diodati

I just wanted to chime in:

Rosmarinus is latin

Spoiler:

for 'dew/drops of the sea'. Which is pretty close to 'drop/s [from] the blue', or 'blue drop'. ^_^ The herb Rosemary also derives its name from Rosmarinus, because it has 'blue drop' shaped flowers - and because it loves water. Reminds me of certain Arume race.

Rosmarinus and Rosemary are though, you're right, very much connected with 'memory' and 'purifying the mind.' It might be looking into it too much (but given the nature of the series, probably not) -- Rosemary/Rosmarinus was considered sacred -- protective -- and used to keep evil spirits, demons or witches at bay.

I can't speak for the Japanese association of the term, but yup.

You guys can go back to the sex-talk and genetics now =)

[Fweakin]

Spoiler for Ep 12:

So once again, a great episode of Blue Drop. I'm kind of dreading the next episode because I really don't want this series to end. There is so much potential to expand upon the material already covered, let alone the set-up for events to come.

I shall never get sick of hearing the wonderful background music play, and never get tired of the HaginoxMari dynamic. It was nice to see Azanael realise her potential as a anti-hero, and I'm not convinced that she's dead yet. That wasn't a whole heap of blood, and would be dangerous but survivable.

I have to say (other than the MarixHagino reconciliation), my favourite moment of the episode came in a single line when Tsubael says something to the effect of "It's really better when she smiles" (referring to Commandah) in the most heartbreaking understated tone I've heard. Don't ask me why its my favourite, 'cause I can't put it into words.

Bring on next week ::gets a pack of tissues handy::

[changeup]

Spoiler for about trubael:

I kinda feel for her too. I always become very sympathatic towards all those "best friends who cannot take the relationship to the next level" in various animes...

And yeah, watching your love getting her happiness from a distance is sentimental.

Originally Posted by Fweakin

Spoiler for Ep 12:

So once again, a great episode of Blue Drop. I'm kind of dreading the next episode because I really don't want this series to end. There is so much potential to expand upon the material already covered, let alone the set-up for events to come.

I shall never get sick of hearing the wonderful background music play, and never get tired of the HaginoxMari dynamic. It was nice to see Azanael realise her potential as a anti-hero, and I'm not convinced that she's dead yet. That wasn't a whole heap of blood, and would be dangerous but survivable.

I have to say (other than the MarixHagino reconciliation), my favourite moment of the episode came in a single line when Tsubael says something to the effect of "It's really better when she smiles" (referring to Commandah) in the most heartbreaking understated tone I've heard. Don't ask me why its my favourite, 'cause I can't put it into words.

Bring on next week ::gets a pack of tissues handy::

[Solace]

Originally Posted by Kieli

It really all depends. Insofar as the technologies are concerned, sure, anything is possible. However, biology is one of those things that, though manipulated to some extent, really has not changed much; just variations of the same theme. Now if someone found a way for a guy to get pregnant and share the "joys" of childbirth (I use that term oh so loosely because I personally cannot imagine why a woman would go through that much pain willingly and call it a joy), that, IMHO, will have been the ultimate discovery. And for me, before I can remotely go into an in-depth discussion on the "what-ifs" of genetics, I would prefer to have more training and knowledge beyond my genetics and virology classes as an undergrad.

As far as biology goes, in some ways we've made great strides and in others....not so much. I do think it will be a long time before we ever see true trans gender, male childbirth, designer babies, genetic replacement for steroids, and all those other things people discuss and dream about come to pass. I do ponder what wonders and disasters will happen as a result of us pushing further into the field, but like anything you have to have risks to see results.

I doubt any of us are scholars on the subject, and I think besides discussion of the technologies we see in Blue Drop there is also plenty of discussion on social and philosophical angles that could be drawn from it as well.

Besides, you can only discuss "zomg did they kiss?!" so many times.

@changeup - In blunt terms, males are nothing but fertilizer. Pollen, stamen, seeds, eggs....nature doesn't really care how the job of reproducing gets done as long as it works. There are many variations of sex in nature that show you don't need a male/female to get the job done.

With enough genetic understanding (and of course, technical prowess) you could eliminate the need for men from your gene pool, and you could also perform a sex change without the need for surgery. I'd imagine that it would require extreme social change for something like that to happen though, however it certainly fits right up the Arume's way of doing things.

[AnimeJock]

I saw the episode again and I still love it. Although I'm looking forward to the last episode, I'm not either. I mentioned earlier that it's been a long time since I've been into an anime as much as this.

Spoiler for More Ep 13 predictions:

I'm expecting them to pull off the play, because it's been one of the primary focus's of the last 5 or so episodes. Hagino will need to be in the play, but I picture it reflecting the "real" life circumstance. I really am on the edge of my seat about this. The end can go either way, though I do hope for a happier one. I think Hagino and Mari are wonderful characters so it'll be emotional to me no matter what.

[Kieli]

Originally Posted by Solace

Besides, you can only discuss "zomg did they kiss?!" so many times.

LOL!! No truer words were ever spoken.

@changeup - In blunt terms, males are nothing but fertilizer. Pollen, stamen, seeds, eggs....nature doesn't really care how the job of reproducing gets done as long as it works. There are many variations of sex in nature that show you don't need a male/female to get the job done.

With enough genetic understanding (and of course, technical prowess) you could eliminate the need for men from your gene pool, and you could also perform a sex change without the need for surgery. I'd imagine that it would require extreme social change for something like that to happen though, however it certainly fits right up the Arume's way of doing things.

Which leads me to wonder how so many men feel that women are merely the vessel and that they are the all important cog in the wheel of speciation (no offense to the guys here but so many male-dominated societies push this idea that one can't help but just marvel at how this all got started, other than the obvious physical differences between men and women). God, we could go on endlessly about the social/philosophical implications within Blue Drop. Those are a bit more fluid than the pure science aspect, I'd imagine.

[Fweakin]

Originally Posted by Solace

Besides, you can only discuss "zomg did they kiss?!" so many times.

Hee. That made me laugh out loud, primarily because one of the reasons I frequent this thread so much is because you guys who participate all come across as intelligent and mature, and it doesn't feel like I'm devolving into a lesser species by reading the thread, unlike other series threads around here.

::coughMyself;Yourselfcough::

[changeup]

Originally Posted by Solace

With enough genetic understanding (and of course, technical prowess) you could eliminate the need for men from your gene pool, and you could also perform a sex change without the need for surgery. I'd imagine that it would require extreme social change for something like that to happen though, however it certainly fits right up the Arume's way of doing things.

One word comes to my mind:

Simoun...

lol... did find some parallel between these two series... in many ways.

[Fweakin]

Originally Posted by changeup

One word comes to my mind:

Simoun...

lol... did find some parallel between these two series... in many ways.

I guess although the series deal with similar themes (war, femalexfemale relationships), I find the two to be very different entities. Just the.....feeling of the series are completely different. Both great shows in themselves though.

[Diodati]

Originally Posted by Kieli

Heh, don't you know that girls love it when you talk science to them?

lol as a girl I do like a bit of science yes! I'm only putting 'guys' in a gender-neutral way, actually there seems to be a few of us ladies in here, go team!

I do think Akihito Yoshitomi and Masahiko Ohkura are being relatively vague on the topic of reproduction deliberately (both on the genetic side and procreation). It can undermine your work a little if there is an obvious flaw to your 'theory' - even if they are hypothetical or just pure fantasy. Probably because the idea in this series does have some relevance - people would be ready to pounce on it.

I was thinking that perhaps certain diseases (hereditary, evolutionary, whatnot) affecting the Arume female sex which appear in latent X genes became prominent in the Arume race. In an all female race the probability of two latent X meeting would increase hugely (compared to the 50/50 proportion of sex usually, and how dominant/latent genes are spread). If that scenario was passed generation to generation over a few hundred years, I could definitely see there being major problems.

Originally Posted by changeup

Thank you very much for this information. It really explained a lot of things, and how fitting it is for the subtitle of the finale!!!

Well I wouldn't really have thought about it if you hadn't bought it up. ^_^ It's quite possible that all the episode titles have some connection with the series - but Rosmarinus/Rosemary is certainly the deepest.

Originally Posted by Fweakin

Spoiler for Tsubael:

I have to say (other than the MarixHagino reconciliation), my favourite moment of the episode came in a single line when Tsubael says something to the effect of "It's really better when she smiles" (referring to Commandah) in the most heartbreaking understated tone I've heard. Don't ask me why its my favourite, 'cause I can't put it into words.

Spoiler for Tsubael:

I know which line you mean - Yuko Goto has been so impressive in this series.

I find Tsubael is quite a complex character (in fact I'd say Tsubael/Ekaril's relationship is the one most open to interpretation) because she doesn't really seem to have any animosity towards anyone (besides chiding Mari). She does admit to being kind of jealous - and that seems more about her inability to bring simple happiness to Ekaril, or to heal her. I don't know if that's obviously romantic - but then it's also clear she cares about Commandah more than anything else. Even if that means acknowledging Commandah only smiles like that when with 'a mere horime.' That's really only wanting the best for someone, which is v heartfelt.

[changeup]

Well, that might be an interesting issue. Since if a malignant gene in the X chromosome has an incidence of p in a certain popularity, it does not really matter whether it is male-female or female-female, the next generation will always have the same incidence if no selection method is involved.

However, when a selection process is in place, things turn out very differently...

It is true that in a male-female population, the rate of disappearance of a malignant gene can be much faster than a female-female population, though, let's consider the following case:

Say we have a recessive fatal gene f in X chromosome. Its normal allele is F. The incidence of the f gene in the female population is 50%.

So if it is a male-female population, we have all males with phenotype F, all females with phenotype Ff. (if the gender ratio is 1:1)

For a female-female population, we have all the females Ff.

So for the next generation, for male-female population, we have :

25% male F
25% male f (all dead)
25% female FF
25% female Ff

for female-female population

50% Ff
25% ff (all dead)
25% FF

for the third generation, for male-female population (maybe some type of polygame will kick in since there are now considerably smaller amount of males)

37.5% male F
37.5% female FF
12.5% male f (all dead)
12.5% female Ff

for the female-female population, we have

44.44% FF
11.11% ff (all dead)
44.44% Ff

I am too lazy to calculate on... but you guys can entertain it a little bit...

Yeah, it seems true that in a male-female population bad genes in X chromosome disappears a little bit faster for the female population... but since it is decreasing anyway, I don't think in a long run a female-female population has more an issue about this anyway... so maybe that's not a good explanation?

Originally Posted by Diodati

I was thinking that perhaps certain diseases (hereditary, evolutionary, whatnot) affecting the Arume female sex which appear in latent X genes became prominent in the Arume race. In an all female race the probability of two latent X meeting would increase hugely (compared to the 50/50 proportion of sex usually, and how dominant/latent genes are spread). If that scenario was passed generation to generation over a few hundred years, I could definitely see there being major problems.

[X207]

Originally Posted by Kazu-kun

No need for that...

ty. i think i read that post b4 but it didnt really stay around until i actually saw an example of it.

darn, wat is it about this thing to prevent tiny quoteholes by only using the quote button.

[crazyhorse]

Blue Drop has been a very entertaining series so far. Although the military/invasion stuff kinda confuse me, the romantic aspects of this show are wonderful. I'm glad to see Hagino and Mari's relationship made canon. The confession and kiss scene was really well done, although I wished there were just a tad less bubbles...

The scene with Onomil and Azanael made me go from 'awwww' to 'ewwwwww' in a few seconds. I would hate to be Azanael. Having her feelings toyed with like that and seeing clones of her lover merge together? Not for me, nosiree

I'm excited for the last episode and although I have a feeling it will be a bittersweet ending. As long as they make it very well-done and touching, I'm completely fine with a sad end since they already gave me a confession scene.

On another note:

Since there has been discussion on their ways of reproduction....do you think that if they did have kids with humans that their half Arume half human child would be able to reproduce with other human females? That would certainly be interesting....

[Kieli]

Originally Posted by changeup

Well, that might be an interesting issue. Since if a malignant gene in the X chromosome has an incidence of p in a certain popularity, it does not really matter whether it is male-female or female-female, the next generation will always have the same incidence if no selection method is involved.

However, when a selection process is in place, things turn out very differently...
Yeah, it seems true that in a male-female population bad genes in X chromosome disappears a little bit faster for the female population... but since it is decreasing anyway, I don't think in a long run a female-female population has more an issue about this anyway... so maybe that's not a good explanation?

I'd have to agree with that assessment (as in not necessarily a good explanation). Phenotypic variation is still influenced just as much be environment as by genotype (called phenotype plasticity). It looks like you're trying to explain using genotype but throwing in phenotypes into the mix (my guess is that you were going for the genotype-phenotype distiction theory to help things along). There is a theory for the evolution of sex that might explain your point a bit better. Of course, I could be misinterpreting your intention.

Since there has been discussion on their ways of reproduction....do you think that if they did have kids with humans that their half Arume half human child would be able to reproduce with other human females? That would certainly be interesting....

I don't see why not. That IS their reason for coming to Earth, after all ;-)

[changeup]

Well, I have oversimplified the things a lot so that we can do some real calculation. Anyway, for a society that can use genetic technique to allow female x female to produce offsprings, more than likely control of malignant genes should not be of much a problem.

It is more likely that the aliens just want a more habitable planet than their own. Maybe they have experienced an "end of the world as they know it" ...

But this actually brings on another interesting question. Since those aliens are so human-like, I would say they share the same ancestry as us... since no random evolution can explain all those similarness...

Originally Posted by Kieli

I'd have to agree with that assessment (as in not necessarily a good explanation). Phenotypic variation is still influenced just as much be environment as by genotype (called phenotype plasticity). It looks like you're trying to explain using genotype but throwing in phenotypes into the mix (my guess is that you were going for the genotype-phenotype distiction theory to help things along). There is a theory for the evolution of sex that might explain your point a bit better. Of course, I could be misinterpreting your intention.

I don't see why not. That IS their reason for coming to Earth, after all ;-)