Gundam Seed/Seed Destiny General Discussion Thread

[monster]

Originally Posted by Rising Dragon

So in your opinion, coordination between attacks so that they keep an airborne opponent pinned without causing collateral damage to each other doesn't require much in the way of teamwork. Good to know.

When even your allies are surprised by the attack, it's definitely not teamwork. In fact, it actually shows how good they are individually that they still managed to survive in that kind of situation.

Either way, Kira never needed to dodge attacks from Rey and Shinn the way he had to with the Biological CPUs. So their attacks are still not as aggressive as with the Biological CPUs, teamwork or no teamwork.

Skills atrophy over time if they're not practiced, monster. It's common knowledge. And two years is plenty of time to lose one's edge in something when they do not do it at all in the interim of said two years. If he wanted to keep his skills sharp or improve upon them, he'd need to practice in those two years, or keep fighting opponents of that caliber. He does not. We know that he did not step into the cockpit of a mobile suit since the end of the first war up until the assassination attempt on Lacus, yet his skills didn't fade, they improved?

They may have improved by the time he got the Strike Freedom. But before that, I'm saying they neither faded nor improved. The mass produced mobile suits may have improved, but the Freedom is still a powerful mobile suit and it still only take one well-placed shot to disable.

And don't get me started on the switch between the Strike and the Freedom. He shouldn't have been that good in that machine either, and it's an argument that can be applied to nearly every goddamn Gundam protagonist ever.

Okay then. But within the context of Kira, since he had done it with the Freedom, switching to the Strike Freedom is relatively easier.

Or, if you want, you can blame the newness of the Freedom in addition to the Biological CPUs' power for the hits Kira received. But even then, the newness of the Strike Freedom would still not nearly be as bad.

[Rising Dragon]

*sighs* Okay, look. I was referring to a specific example. Again. The same specific example you forgot last time we had this fucking argument. Do you just block it out of your mind or something? I am again referring to the second sortie of the CPUs against Kira, before Athrun's second intervention, in which they were, yes, deliberately working together to bring down Kira. Their stunt took an incredible amount of synchronization and coordination.

And actually Shinn and Rey's teamwork was remarkably aggressive. It could only BE aggressive because that's the kind of pilot Shinn is, he's a berserker. Even more of a berserker than Mu thought Kira was. By default their teamwork would be aggressive.

Yes, the switch between the Freedom and the Strike Freedom is theoretically easier, but it's still not exact and the Strike Freedom would handle differently, particularly due to the wing set-up, as they aren't as flexible as the Freedom's wing formation. So it definitely would've handled differently and realistically that would've been an issue for Kira--hell, it would've made that fight far more believable and allow everyone to stomach it. But instead, we got nigh-untouched Kira showing everyone up and only getting trumped by a surprise attack that left him open for a scant second.

[Skye629]

Originally Posted by monster

I'm only saying that it is irrelevant either way when discussing about the Freedom.

I was never discussing the Freedom though.......

I was only backing up RisingDragon's point about the grunt suits being way better than their old counterparts despite treaty limitations, and THAT was THE ONLY point we were discussing atm


So in other words, while the grunt point came up through the overall Freedom discussion, I isolated that one subtopic and responded to it. The part I quoted and responded to was literally a subject of its own, which other people could then use in another discussion (such as the Freedom one you guys are having right now)

[monster]

Originally Posted by Skye629

I was never discussing the Freedom though.......

I was only backing up RisingDragon's point about the grunt suits being way better than their old counterparts despite treaty limitations, and THAT was THE ONLY point we were discussing atm


So in other words, while the grunt point came up through the overall Freedom discussion, I isolated that one subtopic and responded to it. The part I quoted and responded to was literally a subject of its own, which other people could then use in another discussion (such as the Freedom one you guys are having right now)

Oh that's fine, I just wanted to bring it to focus on my end.

Originally Posted by Rising Dragon

*sighs* Okay, look. I was referring to a specific example. Again. The same specific example you forgot last time we had this fucking argument. Do you just block it out of your mind or something? I am again referring to the second sortie of the CPUs against Kira, before Athrun's second intervention, in which they were, yes, deliberately working together to bring down Kira. Their stunt took an incredible amount of synchronization and coordination.

If you're talking about episodes 41 and 42, they had help from the Dominion. And Kira still evaded most of the shots except for the Raider's close quarter attacks.

And actually Shinn and Rey's teamwork was remarkably aggressive. It could only BE aggressive because that's the kind of pilot Shinn is, he's a berserker. Even more of a berserker than Mu thought Kira was. By default their teamwork would be aggressive.

Shinn may be aggressive, but not to the point that he would attack regardless of where Rey was. In fact, the time that Athrun interfered, Shinn waited until Rey gave the word to fire.

Yes, the switch between the Freedom and the Strike Freedom is theoretically easier, but it's still not exact and the Strike Freedom would handle differently, particularly due to the wing set-up, as they aren't as flexible as the Freedom's wing formation. So it definitely would've handled differently and realistically that would've been an issue for Kira--hell, it would've made that fight far more believable and allow everyone to stomach it. But instead, we got nigh-untouched Kira showing everyone up and only getting trumped by a surprise attack that left him open for a scant second.

So you would rather accept that there is this massive jump in skill rather than Kira getting used to the Strike Freedom? I really don't think the show intended for the Strike Freedom to be difficult for Kira to adjust to.

[Rising Dragon]

For fuck's sake, monster, look up the past argument if you have to. I'm talking about the second goddamn CPU sortie at ORB. Dominion wasn't even around at that point. It's the same goddamn example I used the LAST time this discussion cropped up and it wasn't that bloody long ago that it did.

Frankly speaking he hasn't had the time to get used to the Strike Freedom, and if he did it would only be getting used to the Strike Freedom in a space environment, which changes the rules in piloting compared to piloting in-atmosphere. And as for differences between the Freedom and Strike Freedom, ultimately the biggest difference between them is also where it matters, and that's in its propulsion systems and maneuverability.

And yes. I'm aware. Destiny didn't try, it's practically it's biggest fucking theme in the later half of the show: "we stopped trying".

[monster]

Originally Posted by Rising Dragon

For fuck's sake, monster, look up the past argument if you have to. I'm talking about the second goddamn CPU sortie at ORB. Dominion wasn't even around at that point. It's the same goddamn example I used the LAST time this discussion cropped up and it wasn't that bloody long ago that it did.

You said "before Athrun's second intervention." The battle in Orb was Athrun's first intervention. His second intervention was in episode 42. Still, keep in mind that Kira still evaded most of their attacks. I think only Raider got a hit.

But anyway, that battle in Orb was also my point in saying that Rey and Shinn never attacked the Strike Freedom together as hard as that.

Frankly speaking he hasn't had the time to get used to the Strike Freedom, and if he did it would only be getting used to the Strike Freedom in a space environment, which changes the rules in piloting compared to piloting in-atmosphere. And as for differences between the Freedom and Strike Freedom, ultimately the biggest difference between them is also where it matters, and that's in its propulsion systems and maneuverability.

And yes. I'm aware. Destiny didn't try, it's practically it's biggest fucking theme in the later half of the show: "we stopped trying".

Well,

[Rising Dragon]

Yeah, I mixed 'em up. Blah. Also the second intervention was still at ORB, when he attacked all three GAT-X suits at once.

[monster]

LOL, it's fine. It's a lot of things to keep track of, and that's just from one universe. Ah, Gundam.

[Aquaman OS]

The main reason the first series druggies were so dangerous was partially because Kira and Athrun kept letting them live. Well that and Shani was nigh unkillable thanks to being immune to beams AND solid projectiles.

But at least twice either Kira or Athrun would get in Clotho's face and from his reaction they were in range for a kill shot, only to just harmlessly kick him away or railgun him.

And Athrun caused minor damage to all 3 of the druggies at various points (breaking Shani's scythe and damaging his shields, forcing Orga's chest cannon blast into him, and boomeranging Clotho) and instead of moving in for the kill just let them sit there drifting and stewing in rage (although the Clotho one he had more pressing matters like getting Kira back to the ship).

And for Kira you could argue his no kill policy, but Athrun doesn't have that, and indeed opens their final battle with the druggie trio by casually chopping Orga in half, so there's really no excuse for him beyond the staff wanting the druggies to last until the finale when it was finally ok to kill them.

As far getting great at mobile suits they just got, that's hardly a Kira problem. Both Kira and Athrun's squad all starting using their suits like pros immediately after getting them. So does, Athrun with Justice, and Rau with Providence.

And in Destiny Kira at least has the excuse that its similar to Freedom, a unit he was only piloting a few weeks before. But Athrun is able to use IJ despite never seeing it before, having a massive wound, and its based on a suit he last used two years prior.

And that's not counting Shinn and Rey who also are able to use Destiny and Legend like pros to take out Destroy's in their fire real combat experience not including going after Athrun.

So that's hardly Kira's issue alone.

[S.Freedom]

Uhm there is a difference between Kira/Athrun being good with the SF/IJ right away and Shin/Rey being good with the destiny/Legend right away.

Both Shin and Rey had time to play around with their new units before entering a serious fight. When Meer went to Athrun to warn him about Durandal, she specifically said Shin was spending time with the Destiny getting to know it's abilities and such. To the point she urged Athrun to do the same thing.

It can be easily be argued that Rey did the same thing between the fight with Athrun and Heavens base. Heck Luna made a throw away comment about how different the Impulse was from her old Zaku meaning she'd spent time familiarizing herself with what the Impulse could do.

The same obviously can't be said for Kira/Athrun as they simply "jump" into their new unit's like they've had them for ages.

[monster]

Originally Posted by S.Freedom

Uhm there is a difference between Kira/Athrun being good with the SF/IJ right away and Shin/Rey being good with the destiny/Legend right away.

Both Shin and Rey had time to play around with their new units before entering a serious fight. When Meer went to Athrun to warn him about Durandal, she specifically said Shin was spending time with the Destiny getting to know it's abilities and such. To the point she urged Athrun to do the same thing.

It can be easily be argued that Rey did the same thing between the fight with Athrun and Heavens base. Heck Luna made a throw away comment about how different the Impulse was from her old Zaku meaning she'd spent time familiarizing herself with what the Impulse could do.

The same obviously can't be said for Kira/Athrun as they simply "jump" into their new unit's like they've had them for ages.

Because their new units were made for them and resembled their old units. In addition to that, Kira even modified the Strike Freedom before his first fight and he also had more time before going down to Earth.

[Rising Dragon]

Mobility-wise Athrun's in the clear, I think, because there would be very little change between how the Justice and the Infinite Justice handled... assuming he retains the familiarity after so much time piloting the Saviour and possibly any other ORB mobile suit during his time as Alex Dino. The Infinite Justice's biggest changes were to its weaponry loadout and placement. It has everything that the Justice had, plus more.

The Freedom to the Strike Freedom is less so. The wings of the Strike Freedom is the biggest change from the X10A Freedom, and the differing engine positioning, heavier weight on the wings, and limited flexibility of the wings would've been very much different from how the X10A handled. The wing flexibility would've limited the positioning Kira would be able to pull off, as the X10A had greater positioning and formation for the wings. With or without the DRAGOONs, the differing positioning of the wings and thus their thrusters would've also forced him to adjust how it flies compared to the X10A. Their heavier weight would've also resulted in a different center of mass for the Strike Freedom, which would also require adjusting on the piloting style.

All of this should've affected how Kira handled the Strike Freedom, especially in his second sortie with it, which was in-atmosphere and where all of these big issues would've come into play. That he was able to handle the Strike Freedom to the degree he had against Shinn and Rey without taking any damage or meaningful hits can only be attributed to Kira's skill as a pilot.

And seriously, don't get me started on the change between piloting the Strike and piloting the Freedom. Kira should've been absolutely awful in the Freedom when he first acquired it, and he had no time to familiarize himself with anything but the controls.

[Raso]

Originally Posted by Rising Dragon

Mobility-wise Athrun's in the clear, I think, because there would be very little change between how the Justice and the Infinite Justice handled... assuming he retains the familiarity after so much time piloting the Saviour and possibly any other ORB mobile suit during his time as Alex Dino. The Infinite Justice's biggest changes were to its weaponry loadout and placement. It has everything that the Justice had, plus more.

The Freedom to the Strike Freedom is less so. The wings of the Strike Freedom is the biggest change from the X10A Freedom, and the differing engine positioning, heavier weight on the wings, and limited flexibility of the wings would've been very much different from how the X10A handled. The wing flexibility would've limited the positioning Kira would be able to pull off, as the X10A had greater positioning and formation for the wings. With or without the DRAGOONs, the differing positioning of the wings and thus their thrusters would've also forced him to adjust how it flies compared to the X10A. Their heavier weight would've also resulted in a different center of mass for the Strike Freedom, which would also require adjusting on the piloting style.

All of this should've affected how Kira handled the Strike Freedom, especially in his second sortie with it, which was in-atmosphere and where all of these big issues would've come into play. That he was able to handle the Strike Freedom to the degree he had against Shinn and Rey without taking any damage or meaningful hits can only be attributed to Kira's skill as a pilot.

And seriously, don't get me started on the change between piloting the Strike and piloting the Freedom. Kira should've been absolutely awful in the Freedom when he first acquired it, and he had no time to familiarize himself with anything but the controls.

Most of that would be handled by computer and not strictly in the pilot's hands as seen in his first desert sortie when he adjusted the strike's programming to be able to work on sand. Freedom and Strike Freedom were most likely already fully programmed for combat everywhere.

[monster]

Originally Posted by Raso

Most of that would be handled by computer and not strictly in the pilot's hands as seen in his first desert sortie when he adjusted the strike's programming to be able to work on sand. Freedom and Strike Freedom were most likely already fully programmed for combat everywhere.

Agreed. Kira has always been shown to adjust quickly at handling technology.

[Rising Dragon]

The computer handling some of the weapons for the Freedom I can buy, given the amount he uses all at once and the targeting. I can't buy it handling the mobile suit's maneuvering either, because if it's handling both, then what's the point of even having a pilot? Kira's got to be doing something other than pulling the trigger. No, I can't accept that it's the computer handling the finer details of the mobile suit, because some things need a human pilot to figure out. Sure, how to stand in shifting sands is one thing, but the computer handling all of the minor quirks to aerial combat with no prior experience on how it WOULD handle a terrestrial environment? No. Just... no. Not in the first sortie.

[quagmire]

I don't know why people object to how quickly Kira can jump from Strike to Freedom or Freedom to SF.

If you are really going to complain about how Kira can operate a new machine, look no further than when he first got into the Strike. Sure he lacked the tactical strategies needed to be in combat, but he operated the Strike very well without any knowledge of the thing and made adjustments( for sand and under water operations) fairly quickly.

Maybe the jump from Strike to Freedom could also have had a learning curve because they were two very different MS's, but as shown with the Strike, he could handle a MS. And now he had combat experience so he knew of some tactical strategy.

The jump from Freedom to Strike Freedom for me is the least objectionable. It was very similar to Freedom with the same basic frame, cockpit, and concept. Sure the wings were different and not as flexible as Freedom's wings, but Kira probably could adjust quickly. Also unlike Strike and Freedom, SF was built/modified( which ever story is the true story on SF's origins) with Kira in mind. So they would have taken combat data from Freedom and made SF operate as close as possible to the Freedom making the transition for Kira even easier.

[Rising Dragon]

What I'm arguing is that lack of a learning curve, at least on the surface, is because Kira is that skilled as a pilot. On the other hand to have that kind of skill in Destiny, where when he's in a completely new suit and goes untouched when going against on-par suits that he's never seen before is a skill level that he didn't have in SEED. At least in SEED, when he first got the Freedom he didn't go up against any mobile suit at JOSH-A that he hadn't fought before, and when he DID go up against unknown mobile suits with the Freedom, he took some actual hits. Not so with the Strike Freedom.

Kira is a much better pilot in Destiny than he was in SEED. And that's what monster objects to and why we're having this argument.

[monster]

Originally Posted by Rising Dragon

Kira is a much better pilot in Destiny than he was in SEED. And that's what monster objects to and why we're having this argument.

I said that Kira may have improved by the time he got the Strike Freedom, but that was after he's had a few more battles in Destiny. He's also experienced defeat and knows what it's like to not be able to help in case there is danger, so he's likely to be more careful. Not to mention that the Strike Freedom is a more capable mobile suit, having 2 beam shields and even a cannon which can be used defensively against an opposing powerful cannon shot.

The rest is about dodging, and since Kira has always been good at dodging, and there is no indication that the Strike Freedom handled significantly differently than the Freedom, there is no reason to assume a massive jump in skill.

[Aquaman OS]

Originally Posted by Rising Dragon

Mobility-wise Athrun's in the clear, I think, because there would be very little change between how the Justice and the Infinite Justice handled... assuming he retains the familiarity after so much time piloting the Saviour and possibly any other ORB mobile suit during his time as Alex Dino. The Infinite Justice's biggest changes were to its weaponry loadout and placement. It has everything that the Justice had, plus more.

It's still a different mobile suit. The backpack unit is totally different and would handle much different then Justice, let alone the units Athrun's used lately. I know it kind of looks like Justice's back but only in the same way SF's wings kind of look like Freedom's. There's significant difference, and if you take issue with SF then you should do the same with IJ. Not to mention him using the leg blades like a pro, which should be much more of a complex weapon to figure out than just having an extra rifle and a chest instead of a back cannon.

Originally Posted by Rising Dragon

And seriously, don't get me started on the change between piloting the Strike and piloting the Freedom. Kira should've been absolutely awful in the Freedom when he first acquired it, and he had no time to familiarize himself with anything but the controls.

He had hours if not days traveling from Plant to Earth in it with nothing better to do to then figure out how it worked. In fact since Zaft certainly didn't program its targeting system to only shoot to disable by default, that's evidence right there that Kira was working on it, as he traveled.

Same with Strike Freedom. Although his first battle was something he jumped into (but you can argue he was so much more powerful he didn't need much practice to beat the MP units, and he was tinkering with the system prior to launching) Eternal went back to the factory, picked up the Doms and possibly did more, then went back to earth between battles, which was hours if not a day, maybe even more than one day. Plenty of time for him to study how SF worked in detail.

Really the only person who jumped into a Gundam and started using it with no time to really figure out how to work it was Athrun.

[quagmire]

Originally Posted by Rising Dragon

What I'm arguing is that lack of a learning curve, at least on the surface, is because Kira is that skilled as a pilot. On the other hand to have that kind of skill in Destiny, where when he's in a completely new suit and goes untouched when going against on-par suits that he's never seen before is a skill level that he didn't have in SEED. At least in SEED, when he first got the Freedom he didn't go up against any mobile suit at JOSH-A that he hadn't fought before, and when he DID go up against unknown mobile suits with the Freedom, he took some actual hits. Not so with the Strike Freedom.

Kira is a much better pilot in Destiny than he was in SEED. And that's what monster objects to and why we're having this argument.

Agreed with what you're saying. Kira seems to be a better pilot in Destiny than in Seed. The only time we see Kira really struggle in Destiny was the Freedom vs Impulse fight and the official reason for him sucking was because he was distracted trying to protect the Archangel( which I consider BS considering he was doing the same back in Seed against Athrun and co and didn't get a sword through his stomach) and didn't know if the Impulse was really an enemy, etc.