2011-06-29, 03:08 | Link #121 | ||||
Knight Errant
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Dublin, Ireland
Age: 35
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Another good example of a good male lead (from another medium) is Romeo from Romeo and Juliet (the original play), Romeo is basically an overly proud and hasty guy. His only redeeming quality is his capacity for love, and even that is a bit foolish. Now I can see where the appeal of such leads comes from, it's the same thing that leads to Moe. I just find such idealistic depictions of people ultimately unsatisfying. I'd like to see people who are deeply flawed overcoming these flaws and falling in love. Arrogance can work, but it has to seem unjustified, and fate has to be out to destroy him, and not by deus ex machina developments like mysterious disease. His problems should be of his own making. |
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2011-06-29, 07:39 | Link #122 | ||
Le fou, c'est moi
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Las Vegas, NV, USA
Age: 34
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But Kyou is merely the better sort of a very common character in shoujo manga, not an exception that defy the common tastes. The way Jan-Poo first put it it would have given undue credit to Fruit Basket as if it is bucking the trend with its decision (as I said, on the contrary...). Now that I've made the point I came in to make, I'd put in a bit of an opinion that male readers of shoujo manga are likely to enjoy this character archetype far less than female readers, for a rather obvious reason in that boys don't go moe over other boys unless it's Aki-chan Hideyoshi. Last edited by Irenicus; 2011-06-29 at 07:50. |
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2011-06-29, 08:05 | Link #123 | |
別にいいけど
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: forever lost inside a logic error
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2011-06-29, 08:12 | Link #124 | |
Le fou, c'est moi
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Las Vegas, NV, USA
Age: 34
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Oh, and that dark past thing. Everybody in the Sohma family's got issues, but Kyou's are especially, well, bad. |
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2011-06-29, 11:15 | Link #125 | |||||
Vanitas owns you >:3
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Calling the girl "baka" and stomping away mad is one thing. Forcing ecchi/sex on her, or hitting her or constantly putting her down is a serious NO-NO. There's nothing "cute" about that kind of behavior. Sho from Skip Beat is someone I regard as a "true jerk". And I was very glad that Kyoko saw that and more or less said, "F*CK YOU" to him.
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Last edited by Chiibi; 2011-06-29 at 11:39. |
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2011-07-07, 00:29 | Link #126 | ||||||
Senior Member
Join Date: Dec 2005
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I'm a bit surprised that there hasn't been any mention of Utena in this thread. Not only is it one of the preeminent feminist anime works out there, but it basically encompasses this entire discussion. For those unfamiliar with it, the male characters in the show are very reminiscent of the type of male love interests in shoujo works. In general, they display a strong sense of nobility but also tend to disempower the women they're involved with. On the flip side, Utena also examines female characters and how they end up trapped in the circumstances of both gender roles and the dominance of the male characters. I can't think of a better lens to bear on this subject.
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True, but Sho is pretty much the best character in Skip Beat.
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2011-07-07, 02:38 | Link #127 |
Hen-Tie
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Hen-Tie pen
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I didn't reply to this thread for very long time because I wanted it to die. Yes I'm not joking. I already get way too many bad reps for making this thread. Of course you don't need to make a highly controversial threads in order to make people angry at you. Anyway let's get back to the topic.
Perhaps the best way to learn this problem is to understand the mentality of the shoujo fangirls themselves. As far as I can see, they don't see weak, crybaby heroines as a problem. Why? Because they are meant to be on that way. They are meant to be hated by the target audiences anyway. How better Keitaro from Love Hina in comparison anyway? I don't think Love Hina fans are watching that show for him despite he's the hero of the show. The heroine of the shoujo manga/anime also suffered same problem: designed to be hated by the fans. The only reason I made this thread so that I can see any shoujo shows where the heroines interested more than just finding a boyfriend. There are already lots of shounen and seinen shows that the heroes are more interested than having a girlfriend and why no shoujo shows doing the same? There is Ouran High School Host Club though but I ends up hating it, a lot. Last edited by Kameruka; 2011-07-07 at 04:09. |
2011-07-07, 03:55 | Link #128 | |
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Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Adelaide
Age: 36
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Young boys however generally aren't interested in straight-up female perspective romances. Therefore girls who want to read romances have to read manga specifically marketed only to girls (Ie shoujo manga).
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2011-07-07, 07:21 | Link #129 | |
AS Oji-kun
Join Date: Nov 2006
Age: 74
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2011-07-11, 00:43 | Link #130 | ||||
Vanitas owns you >:3
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I love Usagi from Sailormoon because she matures and becomes strong. I hate Miaka from Fushigi Yuugi because she never learns and stays the same helpless idiot for the whole 52 episodes. Quote:
Pardon me for saying so, but it doesn't seem like you do much research on shoujo manga and their audiences. I have. I have read many issues of Ribon, Nakayoshi and similar manga magazines, and raw manga where they take character popularity polls. Guess who is either ranked #1 or at least stays in the top 3? Yes, the heroine. The heroine is the role model for the little girls reading the manga. They look up to her and admire her and wish to be like her, just like how American little girls look up to and wish to be like the Disney princesses. This really isn't wrong for their age. It's a phase girls will eventually grow out of (as long as they're raised unspoiled.) However heroines of shoujo manga make better role models than the Princesses, imho, for the most part. They seem to have a strong determination that Disney girls lack. This is gradually changing though, but in a nutshell of course, the shoujo heroine is going to have more character development, simply because there is more time to develop her in a five-ten volume manga series than a one-hour long Disney movie. Quote:
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2011-09-02, 03:49 | Link #131 |
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Join Date: Feb 2006
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True, quite interesting that shounen have more feminism than shoujo.
But the shounen takes the feminism too far where it actually seems counter-intuitive and sexist. Instead of the girl nearly getting raped all the time, the girls are over-protected where even the villainess are protected by the hero. And they're usually looked down upon and fodderized like in Naruto. In Toaru Majutsu no Index however, the majority of the antagonists are women so the main character must treat them all equally. He does not discriminate. This is the most gender equal anime I've ever seen. Though not completely... since the female antagonists that he defeats end up joining his harem... while the male antagonists are forever forgotten or he remains hostile too. |
2011-09-02, 04:33 | Link #132 | ||
We're Back
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Redgrave City
Age: 35
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The defeated female villains don't join the harem, most of them just remain on passive-neutral terms, that is to say they aren't actively hostile or hold any lifetime grudges.
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2011-09-02, 05:44 | Link #133 | |
Le fou, c'est moi
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Las Vegas, NV, USA
Age: 34
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Feminism, classic feminism, is diametrically opposed to the damsel-in-distress archetype that "over-protected" girls of [some] shounen manga are perfect examples of. After all, the only real difference between an overly protected damsel and a "ravished" damsel is on which male wins the battle. You noted it yourself when you pointed out how female characters are looked down upon in Naruto, even though you misinterpreted it as feminism too far. Rather, feminism in fiction, in so far as such a diverse and complex movement can be simplified, is about returning the initiative to the female characters, to give them motivation and life, to empower them -- and I don't mean that in some shounen power level sense. A female character doesn't have to be perfect and get all the happy endings; she can be a flipping rape victim even, but if a work of fiction goes deep into her psyche, presents the world as seen through her eyes, as well as portraying her ability as a human to survive, change, and grow, and to develop her identity as a person and give her a chance to speak with her own voice -- that work is, at some levels at least, feminist. |
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2011-09-02, 05:50 | Link #134 |
Knight Errant
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Dublin, Ireland
Age: 35
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The essence of feminism is that the female character is as complete as any male character. Not neccessarily that they are as strong. The most important thing is that they are well articulated depictions, and not simply objects for male characters to win or protect.
So the female characters of Kuragehime are generally pretty weak and pathetic, but you could call Kuragehime feminist, as the characters, despite all their faults, are all human beings, with their own goals and motivations. Not simply someone the male character has to woo, and not people who can only exist in respect to a male character. |
2011-09-02, 05:59 | Link #135 |
Hen-Tie
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Hen-Tie pen
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I'm surprised when seeing this thread come back from the dead. I virtually had nothing to say in this thread again except female characters in shoujo anime/manga sucks because the authors and their fans wanted to.
Let this thread die again before I got too many bad reps. |
2011-09-02, 09:42 | Link #136 | |
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http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/anncast/2011-09-02
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2011-09-02, 09:42 | Link #137 | |
Also a Lolicon
Join Date: Apr 2010
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I had a link a few posts back that you should read. http://www.overthinkingit.com/2008/0...bad-for-women/ |
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2011-09-02, 11:13 | Link #138 | |
Vanitas owns you >:3
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There are PLENTY of female characters in shoujo that do not "sucks". I doubt you've read every single one in order to determine that they ALL "sucks". There is variety in all genres of anime/manga, dammit.
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Last edited by Chiibi; 2011-09-02 at 11:32. |
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2011-09-02, 22:19 | Link #139 | |
Criminal Unrequitor
Graphic Designer
Join Date: Jul 2010
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Unto the topic, women do not suddenly become better when they take a man's role in society. They are already equal to men and that is what feminism is gunning for. Not for housewives to suddenly work again but for society to realize that its not a lesser job. Relating this to women in anime, Sakura from Naruto doesn't become a better character just because she had a power-up. Her character is still the same, completely undeveloped and whiny. Now for the shojo jist of things, it is a very wide genre and in fact some of the best feminist material I have ever seen comes from this genre (Utena anyone?).
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Last edited by ahelo; 2011-09-02 at 22:56. |
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2011-09-02, 22:42 | Link #140 | |
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Join Date: Dec 2005
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There's a few shoujo like Ouran and Skip Beat where the female is pretty strong. But even in Skip Beat, the girl is more or less controlled by Ren the rich handsome superstar actor. |
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