[Game] Umineko no Naku Koro ni - Ep. 2 Turn of the golden witch

[haguruma]

Originally Posted by cereal_killerxx

So admittedly, I was bored reading this for about the first hour. After that though, it started to pick up really quickly and I was intrigued. Even though it's a question arc, I hope that it'll provide atleast a few answers to some of the many questions I have.

To add to what other people said, this game really is the witch's counterattack. Be prepared and don't let your guard down...this EP is full of good hints, but you have to keep your eyes open to discern them from the witch's traps.
I'm really excited to get to know about a new reader's ideas after this Episode. I think you heard that it was a major turning point for how people perceived this story.

[cereal_killerxx]

OK, now this is some funny stuff. Jessica's at the school festival and every time her friends freak out, these very funny sound effects are played. Brings back funny memories of girls I knew in High School xD

[cereal_killerxx]

I honestly thought that this novel couldn't surprise me anymore, but...

Spoiler for Episode 2:

KANON GOT INTO A LIGHTSABER FIGHT WITH A GOAT SERVANT THING! HELLS YES!

[Xyrius Cherubim]

nope, this novel is so hell surprising (not like a suspense one, but more like an unexpected turn of events). two thumbs up for Umineko. lol

[RandomAvatarFan]

Alright, I really want to say that this game is the only thing holding me back from wanting to find the culprit.

I mean, it's one thing to think that some crazy witch would pull a stunt like the first twilight.

But when I began to crack down on who it could have been, and then I start going through the details of the first twilight... I throw up a little. To think that one of the 18 would have done something so disgusting.
That's also when I remember Nanjo saying in EP1 that the first twilight victims didn't have their heads bashed in until *after* they died.

[Toku]

Originally Posted by RandomAvatarFan

Alright, I really want to say that this game is the only thing holding me back from wanting to find the culprit.

I mean, it's one thing to think that some crazy witch would pull a stunt like the first twilight.

But when I began to crack down on who it could have been, and then I start going through the details of the first twilight... I throw up a little. To think that one of the 18 would have done something so disgusting.
That's also when I remember Nanjo saying in EP1 that the first twilight victims didn't have their heads bashed in until *after* they died.

Yeah. If it helps, the stomach wounds aren't necessarily what killed them. It could have been done after they died.

Have you been able to solve the mystery of the First Twilight yet?

[Kylon99]

If it helps, keep in mind that based on Ryukishi's previous series, Higurashi, he seems to tend not to write simplistic evil villains. Or at least they are more complicated than someone like Dr. Evil. 8)

EDIT: I didn't realize how it looked until I posted but... uh... *cough* ... ignore my signature. 8)

[RandomAvatarFan]

Originally Posted by Toku

Yeah. If it helps, the stomach wounds aren't necessarily what killed them. It could have been done after they died.

Have you been able to solve the mystery of the First Twilight yet?

Small Bombs.

I got to say though, as much fun as it is to try and figure it out, I'm convinced I won't be able to until I finally read through Chiru, which should be on it's way It may be easy to guess how, but I'm terrible at detecting motives.

The first twilight took place at the chapel, on the night of the meeting. Before hand we are shown a scene involving all of the parents and Piece!Beatrice. Rosa is the only one who goes to sleep that night, and the rest are inside the chapel, killed.

The red is our greatest tool, right?

Regardless of if they were living or dead, six people definitely entered that door.

Well, all that tells us is that the victims were set there after they died. It's nice to think that the victims were lured in there and then killed, especially after the scene that preceded this. However this red suggests that this wasn't the case.

Going off of what was said,

Originally Posted by Toku

It could have been done after they died

Doesn't help with that mental image.
Kind of like the first twilight murders of the EP1 though. Those heads weren't bashed in until after they were killed. Now that I start thinking about EP4's 1st twilight, I wonder if the case is the same. A certain ninth/tenth twilight victim was killed the same way as the first twilights, only the culprit behaved differently following the death. Ahh... my mind is overloaded from all the chapters. You asked about the 1st twilight of EP2.

We also have:
This morning, Rosa definitely took an envelope out of Maria's handbag, and thereby obtained the genuine key to the chapel
Which rules out that Rosa was hiding the real key.
The key to the chapel truly was the object inside the envelope I gave Maria
Same thing as above
The letter I handed over to Maria, and the letter Rosa took out of Maria's handbag are the same thing
So Piece!Beatrice handed over the key before the first twilight occurred.

However one thing is uncertain: Beatrice declared other murders as closed rooms. She also told about the limited access that the chapel has. However, it was never declared in red that the door was even locked to begin with. Therefore anyone could have killed them and made it appear that the door was locked. This isn't even a closed room!

The only thing left is the who and why? I'm curious about that gold though. I wonder if the epitaph doesn't give out one answer, but rather it's a treasure hunt. Each twilight is referring to a different place. The gold isn't hoarded up in one spot but rather scattered across the island. "Praise my name on high" can be placed into context with a chapel. Meh, just stupid speculation.

[Toku]

Originally Posted by RandomAvatarFan

Small Bombs.

I got to say though, as much fun as it is to try and figure it out, I'm convinced I won't be able to until I finally read through Chiru, which should be on it's way It may be easy to guess how, but I'm terrible at detecting motives.

The first twilight took place at the chapel, on the night of the meeting. Before hand we are shown a scene involving all of the parents and Piece!Beatrice. Rosa is the only one who goes to sleep that night, and the rest are inside the chapel, killed.

The red is our greatest tool, right?

Regardless of if they were living or dead, six people definitely entered that door.

Well, all that tells us is that the victims were set there after they died. It's nice to think that the victims were lured in there and then killed, especially after the scene that preceded this. However this red suggests that this wasn't the case.

Going off of what was said,
Kind of like the first twilight murders of the EP1. Those heads weren't bashed in until after they were killed. Now that I start thinking about EP4's 1st twilight, I wonder if the case is the same. A certain ninth/tenth twilight victim was killed the same way as the first twilights, only the culprit behaved differently following the death. Ahh... my mind is overloaded from all the chapters. You asked about the 1st twilight of EP2

We also have:
This morning, Rosa definitely took an envelope out of Maria's handbag, and thereby obtained the genuine key to the chapel
Which rules out that Rosa was hiding the real key.
The key to the chapel truly was the object inside the envelope I gave Maria
Same thing as above
The letter I handed over to Maria, and the letter Rosa took out of Maria's handbag are the same thing
So Piece!Beatrice handed over the key before the first twilight occurred.

However one thing is uncertain: Beatrice declared other murders as closed rooms. She also told about the limited access that the chapel has. However, it was never declared in red that the door was even locked to begin with. Therefore anyone could have killed them and made it appear that the door was locked. This isn't even a closed room!

...
*slow clap*
A brilliant bit of reasoning, there. I believe you've arrived at the correct answer. You're starting to see what Umineko is really like, yes?

With this perspective you've gained, EP5 should become much clearer to you than it otherwise would have. I won't spoil anything. I'm just saying. I couldn't understand all of this properly until I had already gone through Chiru.

[Kylon99]

The principle to solving things is not to doubt yourself or your theories once they are backed up by enough evidence. Once you do that, then reach for new consequences as a result of those theories. It will feel like you are springing forward in the story in leaps and bounds.

The other thing is not to throw away the whole story and only believe in the red text, as many people were doing at this time. 8) Even lies and other interpretations can serve their use if you can understand the lie. Or sometimes it may not actually be a lie.

[RandomAvatarFan]

Originally Posted by Kylon99

Even lies and other interpretations can serve their use if you can understand the lie. Or sometimes it may not actually be a lie.

This is the most difficult part of the game is telling the difference between truth and lie and delusion. In Higurashi I saw right through the "illusion" in Onikakushi, but that's not my case in Umineko. I'm not the kind of player that throws *everything* that isn't red out, but rather, I take everything with a grain of salt. (Even the red, as we find out in EP4)

For instance, one of the few constants: Maria's umbrella. Is Maria merely lying or did Maria see Beatrice?

This is where Rule Z comes in. In Higurashi, Rule Z was state to be something really specific, but Ryukishi did a commentary on it in Beyond Midnight, giving "Rule Z" a meaning that can be applied to almost anything and is always true, even in real life.

When Rosa begins to throw a fit, Maria says that "The Black Witch possessed Mamma." But if Rosa was being especially kind, Maria may think that now a good witch has possessed her. Therefore Maria did "see" both Rosa and "Beatrice" in the garden.

I think this is a good basis to start theories, especially for EP4.

Like I said, I'm not good at detecting motives. Both Kyrie and Rosa claim they saw a 19th person, but I can't figure out what reason they would say that except it will throw the parents into a panic.

You need to know what "Beatrice" means for each character and who understands someone else's definition for it. Example: The parents definition of "Beatrice" is someone who has control of the gold. Why would two of them announce the arrival of that person?

These interpretations may be wrong, but it's my way of fighting through the scenes that we know is simply impossible otherwise.

[Kylon99]

Originally Posted by RandomAvatarFan

This is the most difficult part of the game is telling the difference between truth and lie and delusion. In Higurashi I saw right through the "illusion" in Onikakushi, but that's not my case in Umineko. I'm not the kind of player that throws *everything* that isn't red out, but rather, I take everything with a grain of salt. (Even the red, as we find out in EP4)

Argghhhhh I... want to... but... can't.. talk about it on here...

If you're at EP4, you should go the EP4 thread. There's only so much I can say here without spoiling everyone else. 8)

Suffice it to say that the major problems for me at the beginning of EP2 was the message bottle from the end of EP1. Couple that with the unreliable narrator idea, which I'm sure most of us realized when EP2 started showing us crazy magic scenes. (A lot of people in Japan didn't apparently, at the time.)

The idea that EP2 didn't represent a continuation of the events, but a new sequence of events from the same setting as in EP1 was deeply disturbing to me. Especially if you had a message bottle of what seemed like the story of the events in EP1.

The obvious solution is that it is exactly like Higurashi; a fragment in the sea where all events are re-rolled. Since Bernkastel showed up, this is the first solution we reach for, right?

Er... anyways... that's all I can say.

[RandomAvatarFan]

Originally Posted by Kylon99

The obvious solution is that it is exactly like Higurashi; a fragment in the sea where all events are re-rolled. Since Bernkastel showed up, this is the first solution we reach for, right?

Er... anyways... that's all I can say.

I wonder if you brought this up to hint at something or what.

Couple that with the unreliable narrator idea, which I'm sure most of us realized when EP2 started showing us crazy magic scenes. (A lot of people in Japan didn't apparently, at the time.)

I didn't fall for it all, nope...not me..... I was watching the anime and thought "I thought this was a murder mystery, there's no place for this stuff!"
I also didn't understand the game between Battler and Beatrice, and I was thinking "She's speaking in colors, and yet you're denying her?"
But yeah... Denying the witch is fun.

If you're at EP4, you should go the EP4 thread. There's only so much I can say here without spoiling everyone else. 8)

I'm using this thread to figure out EP2. I've been careful with spoilers, and there's only one big thing that we learn in EP4, so it's easy to keep my mouth shut.

Unfortunately people like discussing Chiru's details on EP4's thread, without the use of spoiler tags, and I can't go to the Theories discussion either because spoilers run just as rampant.

[Kylon99]

Originally Posted by RandomAvatarFan

I wonder if you brought this up to hint at something or what.

*cough*

Originally Posted by RandomAvatarFan

I'm using this thread to figure out EP2. I've been careful with spoilers, and there's only one big thing that we learn in EP4, so it's easy to keep my mouth shut.

Unfortunately people like discussing Chiru's details on EP4's thread, without the use of spoiler tags, and I can't go to the Theories discussion either because spoilers run just as rampant.

Yeah, actually, I made a post a few months ago without realizing my signature was a spoiler for EP2. It was ok for EP4 - 6... but not for 2. It's so hard to realize that even the *names* of the theories being bandied about would spoil someone back here... 8)

[LyricalAura]

Originally Posted by RandomAvatarFan

Unfortunately people like discussing Chiru's details on EP4's thread, without the use of spoiler tags, and I can't go to the Theories discussion either because spoilers run just as rampant.

If it helps, Klashikari has gotten those EP4 thread spoilers cleaned out.

[Klashikari]

Originally Posted by RandomAvatarFan

Unfortunately people like discussing Chiru's details on EP4's thread, without the use of spoiler tags, and I can't go to the Theories discussion either because spoilers run just as rampant.

Episode threads are indeed meant to discuss only about their respective episodes and those that are set prior the discussed one. Posts have been cleaned up.

[Drifloon]

A point about this episode that I don't think I've ever seen discussed: why do you guys think it occasionally shows a modified version of the portrait of Beatrice that makes her look more like Piece-Beatrice rather than Meta-Beatrice?

Is it just a metaphor to show that Piece-Beatrice looks like the witch in the portrait? It's weird how it's presented - sometimes it shows the original portrait turn into the new one, and sometimes people are recalling the portrait yet it shows the picture of the new portrait rather than the 'real' one that they should be recalling. I remember thinking when I first played it that something weird was going on and the portrait was being switched or people's memories were being modified or something.

What do you guys think of this? It's a really weird detail that doesn't seem to mean anything. Why do you think it's there?

[AuraTwilight]

The second portrait doesn't actually exist; not even in fantasy scenes, really. It seems to be a purely meta abstraction, like the Erika portrait.

[Captain Bluebeard]

I think Ryukihsi07 just wanted to throw in a new version of Beato's portrait to give some flavor to the episode, like a new cover or something....I was really caught by surprise when I first saw it in the anime too, as it doesn't appear to have any meaning whatsoever.

[jjblue1]

Originally Posted by Captain Bluebeard

I think Ryukihsi07 just wanted to throw in a new version of Beato's portrait to give some flavor to the episode, like a new cover or something....I was really caught by surprise when I first saw it in the anime too, as it doesn't appear to have any meaning whatsoever.

Well, for the first 3 episodes we've 3 different portrays... I wonder if this was supposed to be a hint about how Beato's look wasn't hers but was decided according to external influences...